1. #5581
    I think there will be a 10.3 even if its smaller in scale than 10.1 and 10.2.

    I don't think we will ever see something the size the Argus again for a final patch.

  2. #5582
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    It lead to a shit load of expansion purchases for BFA, so I assume if the hype for the theme of 11.0 is huge (revamp would be big, Light vs Void probably as well due to many lore figures) it will also have a lot of expansion purchases due to good faith from DF if it keeps up.
    BFA had a lot of sales at launch because it milked faction war nostalgia, which had been built up over 24 years. The RTS games had you play as these factions and fight the other side. WoW was predicated around factions, with the player being forced to pick the same side as their friends if they wanted to play with them, and the game experience making your identify with your faction and naturally want it to prevail in the conflict with the other faction. Note the sheer amount of Horde and Alliance and faction war themed fanart.

    Most people don't know any Light or Void figures. Blizzard didn't start setting that up until the final patch of Legion, long after WoW had fallen out of the mainstream consciousness, after the game peaked at 12 million subs and plummeted down to 5 million subs, and then it kept plummeting to the point that Blizzard was so embarrassed that they stopped publishing the sub count. There is hardly any fanart of evil Yrel or the Legion Army of Light, let alone of Void Alleria. Light vs Void is not going to draw millions of people back to the game like Horde vs Alliance did because nobody is nostalgic for Light vs Void.

  3. #5583
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Most people don't know any Light or Void figures. Blizzard didn't start setting that up until the final patch of Legion, long after WoW had fallen out of the mainstream consciousness, after the game peaked at 12 million subs and plummeted down to 5 million subs, and then it kept plummeting to the point that Blizzard was so embarrassed that they stopped publishing the sub count. There is hardly any fanart of evil Yrel or the Legion Army of Light, let alone of Void Alleria. Light vs Void is not going to draw millions of people back to the game like Horde vs Alliance did because nobody is nostalgic for Light vs Void.
    Maybe not the Light figures, but Azshara is a hugely popular character and Denathrius and Xal'atath, both who would likely be involved, are very popular modern characters.

    Nostalgia is over now that Arthas is dead. The only way there would be a nostalgia expansion now is a revamp expansion with old zones, which would still feature new races and concepts, and that is still likely. But the characters I mentioned would have a lot of draw to modern players.

    Actually I take it back, because Scarlets have a VERY prominent wow fanbase. So have them involved in some major way and people will play.

  4. #5584
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    That's precisely what I was thinking: this kind of expansion leads to a good deal of sales of the subsequent expansion—if Legion is not an aberration—and the only reason why I think it didn't set a path for long-term recovery is because BfA was a highly underwhelming and unenjoyable expansion. What I'm concerned about is maintaining the aforementioned good faith through the next expansion.
    Should also be noted that Legion was milking fans' interest in the Burning Legion, who were antagonists of WC3 and TBC, as well as fans' hype for Illidan and Demon Hunters.

  5. #5585
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I can see there being a 10.3 Titan-y patch with Tyr and Odyn but aside from that? I don't see a lot of story after Iridikron/Vyranoth/Fyrakk? vs the Dream, especially if Decay is brought in through one of them as it can be the ultimate enemy to the Dream.

    I guess if that doesn't result in them becoming aspects again, "how do they become aspects" could be a whole patch story after the Incarnates are beaten. And that could be where Tyr and Odyn appear.
    At least one Incarnate will live through DF IMO. Probably Iridikron, as It seems that he is going to be empowered by Decay and I can see that as a recurrent threat in the future.

    If 10.2 is Emerald Dream related I can see Vyranoth dead in that patch.

    Fyrakk is a weird one. He could fall to the Void and be a link to a future Void themed expansion. He could even usher the return of the Old Gods.

    Regarding the Aspects, what if they do not become Aspects again? What if they base their power in the unity of the Dragonflights and the mortal races? We have defeated Raszageth and countless threats without them being at full power.

    DF is showing us that going after power could have dire consequences, and the themes of unity and change are everywhere.
    Last edited by Darkarath; 2023-05-11 at 08:57 PM.
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  6. #5586
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Maybe not the Light figures, but Azshara is a hugely popular character
    With who? The tens of millions of people who played WoW in the 2000s when she only appeared in a novels that most people never read? Or by the remnant of people still subbed long after WoW fell out of the mainstream and Blizzard stopped publishing sub numbers?

  7. #5587
    Warchief Catastrophy349's Avatar
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    So, they said in an interview that there would be "encrypted" stories for the "continuation of Tyr" and the "blue dragonflight" in patch 10.1 (not in a future patch, i.e. 10.1.5/10.1.7, etc.). So, when are we getting those stories? Next week? As a lead in to the 10.1.5 stuff? Who knows.

  8. #5588
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Even assuming a DF-tier announcement to release schedule, that'd see a release around Q3 or Q4 2024, meaning that 10.2 would have to pull its weight for close to a year.
    True, even if we say 6 months of its own season plus 3-4 months of a fated season it is a stretch. I do have an idea for that if you stay with me
    So many people here dream of a revamp. But the focus is almost always on upgrading the zones. From something as basic as updating zones visually, possibly using automation and revamped objects with adequate spatial parity to just be replaced with a batch process to breaking down zones and combining them into new zones with less borders to the really ambitious idea about remaking the world at a larger scale. As for the content it again scales from World Quests and Rares to zones full of new storylines or the "compromise" idea of partial revamps that serve as expansion content (nvm that outside of Lordaeron, most other content blocks just don't have the juice for an expac story). It's very much story and world building first.

    This might be great for me and others here, but not for the majority of players in WoW. Almost none of that content is really relevant (and it would need a better world content reward track which is an entirely different discussion) to the majority of the playerbase. And anything that is truly expansive splits the population so thin that any event or group activity would not be doable.

    Meanwhile I am seeing in Dragonflight Blizzard probably stretching themselves thin. We are getting a lot of content in a much faster cycle. I don't know whether this is something they can keep up or they pivoted during SL to do this like they had between WoD and Legion.

    So for me the solution is TIMEWALKING.
    Every expac plus a number of Content Blocks from the Vanilla world becomes a seasonal timewalking attraction. So Lordaeron, Khaz Modan, Azeroth, Northern/wSouthern Kalimdor (they really need some type of name for these blocks). Each block gets updated visually. Add world quests, rares and vignettes. Add 2-3 world events (like Soup/Hunt/Siege). Maybe add a big storyline that travels around the area OR show a timewalking version of an epic storyline related to the area. Add at least one major War Mode world objective; in some places it can be Free for All, in others it is faction based. Pick one raid that will have Timewalking but not just normal; LFR and Heroic too. Pick 3-4 dungeons.

    From then on, each expansion's normal content seasons are paired with a Timewalking season. The Dungeons enter the M+ rotation immediately. The zone content and the raid all activate in the .5 patch.

    Everything stays relevant forever. You use the massive library of content the game has instead of having to play just today. It rotates slowly enough that it doesn't get repetitive.

  9. #5589
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    With who? The tens of millions of people who played WoW in the 2000s when she only appeared in a novels that most people never read? Or by the remnant of people still subbed long after WoW fell out of the mainstream and Blizzard stopped publishing sub numbers?

    Not even trying to hide the "wow is dead" posts anymore huh?

  10. #5590
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I can see there being a 10.3 Titan-y patch with Tyr and Odyn but aside from that? I don't see a lot of story after Iridikron/Vyranoth/Fyrakk? vs the Dream, especially if Decay is brought in through one of them as it can be the ultimate enemy to the Dream.

    I guess if that doesn't result in them becoming aspects again, "how do they become aspects" could be a whole patch story after the Incarnates are beaten. And that could be where Tyr and Odyn appear.
    Tyr and Aspects vs Odyn taking place in a visually updated Storm Peaks/Dragonblight.

  11. #5591
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkarath View Post
    At least one Incarnate will live through DF IMO. Probably Iridikron, as It seems that he is going to be empowered by Decay and I can see that as a recurrent threat in the future.

    If 10.2 is Emerald Dream related I can see Vyranoth dead in that patch.

    Fyrakk is a weird one. He could fall to the Void and be a link to a future Void themed expansion. He could even usher the return of the Old Gods.

    Regarding the Aspects, what if they do not become Aspects again? What if they base their power in the unity of the Dragonflights and the mortal races? We have defeated Raszageth and countless threats without them being at full power.

    DF is showing us that going after power could have dire consequences, and the themes of unity and change are everywhere.
    The aspects power isn't necessarily bad though. It ended bad for Sarkereth because the Old Gods powers are Shadow(Void) which made Deathwing insane. As tropey as it is going after dark powers is generally bad but I think thats different from the Aspects powers(Life, Nature, Time, Magic and the Earth). Fyrakk though unless he somehow survives enduring the Shadowflame(If deathwing couldn't I doubt any proto dragon could).
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  12. #5592
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    So… Iridikron being a boss in the dungeon means the likelihood of him not being a raid boss (or end boss for any particular raid) is pretty good?

    Looking more likely Murozond will be the true expansion’s antagonist.
    Looks at Kael'thas , Lich King, Gorefiend and Xy'mox... yeah cant possibly have the same character in 2 raids/dungeons in one expansion :P

  13. #5593
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I think it's also possible that the Blue are 10.1.7 and Red and Green share 10.2. If we fight Iridikron this early (as well as Red and Green sharing similar themes) I'm not sure we will go all the way to 10.3.
    My tinfoil conspiracy theory is that the expansion is going to culminate with Alexstrasza and Tyr re-empowering the dragonflights with new metallic themes, going away from the chromatic flights we have now (and yes, I consider the existing “bronze” flight chromatic).

  14. #5594
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    True, even if we say 6 months of its own season plus 3-4 months of a fated season it is a stretch. I do have an idea for that if you stay with me
    So many people here dream of a revamp. But the focus is almost always on upgrading the zones. From something as basic as updating zones visually, possibly using automation and revamped objects with adequate spatial parity to just be replaced with a batch process to breaking down zones and combining them into new zones with less borders to the really ambitious idea about remaking the world at a larger scale. As for the content it again scales from World Quests and Rares to zones full of new storylines or the "compromise" idea of partial revamps that serve as expansion content (nvm that outside of Lordaeron, most other content blocks just don't have the juice for an expac story). It's very much story and world building first.

    This might be great for me and others here, but not for the majority of players in WoW. Almost none of that content is really relevant (and it would need a better world content reward track which is an entirely different discussion) to the majority of the playerbase. And anything that is truly expansive splits the population so thin that any event or group activity would not be doable.

    Meanwhile I am seeing in Dragonflight Blizzard probably stretching themselves thin. We are getting a lot of content in a much faster cycle. I don't know whether this is something they can keep up or they pivoted during SL to do this like they had between WoD and Legion.

    So for me the solution is TIMEWALKING.
    Every expac plus a number of Content Blocks from the Vanilla world becomes a seasonal timewalking attraction. So Lordaeron, Khaz Modan, Azeroth, Northern/wSouthern Kalimdor (they really need some type of name for these blocks). Each block gets updated visually. Add world quests, rares and vignettes. Add 2-3 world events (like Soup/Hunt/Siege). Maybe add a big storyline that travels around the area OR show a timewalking version of an epic storyline related to the area. Add at least one major War Mode world objective; in some places it can be Free for All, in others it is faction based. Pick one raid that will have Timewalking but not just normal; LFR and Heroic too. Pick 3-4 dungeons.

    From then on, each expansion's normal content seasons are paired with a Timewalking season. The Dungeons enter the M+ rotation immediately. The zone content and the raid all activate in the .5 patch.

    Everything stays relevant forever. You use the massive library of content the game has instead of having to play just today. It rotates slowly enough that it doesn't get repetitive.
    So if I get your idea correctly you are talking about making another revamp, meaning that Cataclysm zones would dissapear until they are again available when the corresponding Timewalking event happens.

    I though about this possibility but you are taking away content from players (even if it comes back now and then in the form of Timewalking), and what kills this system for me is that you are taking away player freedom. If I want to level in Cataclysm zones or get a rep, mount, achievement, etc., I would have to wait until the Timewalking event is up. Plus all the phasing bugs that this would cause, and we already have a few in the zones which have two versions.

    Much easier to revamp a part of a continent in a new map and expand it over time.

    Although I have to say that if 11.0 is not the revamp it will probably never happen. They are seeding the game with many future plotlines, so the possibility of a revamp seems more unlikely with each DF patch. I really hope that I am wrong, though.
    Last edited by Darkarath; 2023-05-11 at 09:13 PM.
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  15. #5595
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkarath View Post
    So if I get your idea correctly you are talking about making another revamp, meaning that Cataclysm zones would dissapear until they are again available when the corresponding Timewalking event happens.

    I though about this possibility but you are talking away content from players (even if comes back now and then in the forma of Timewalking), and what kills this system for me is that you are talking away player freedom. If I want to level in Cataclysm zones or get a rep, mount, achievement, etc., I would have to wait until the Timewalking event is up. Plus all the phasing bugs that this would cause, and we already have a few in the zones which have two versions.

    Much easier to revamp a part of a continent in a new map and expand it over time.

    Although I have to say that if 11.0 is not the revamp it will probably never happen. They are seeding the game with many future plotlines, so the possibility of a revamp seems more unlikely with each DF patch. I really hope that I am wrong, though.
    Why would any content be taken away? WHy do people even think this way? Was Arathi and Darkshore taken away? You talk to an NPC and get them back.

    My point is
    a) a revamp needs to serve ALL players, not just those who want to explore, want worldbuilding and story. It needs to give something to AotC raiders who are stuck in farm cause Mythic is too hard, it needs to give variety to dungeoneers, it needs to feature pvp. Updating the world visually and adding new stories would be awesome and great for worldbuilding but it would give nothing to most of the playerbase who log in casually and want something to do in their preferred progression track. If once I have Vault on Farm I can get my raid to progress on BWL Heroic while having Grim Batol and some Blackrock Depth's wing as dungeons for variety in my M+ runs while also fighting vs the other faction in the ruins of Thundermar then yeah, that a complete experience.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-05-11 at 09:17 PM.

  16. #5596
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Why would any content be taken away? WHy do people even think this way? Was Arathi and Darkshore taken away? You talk to an NPC and get them back.
    It is a possibility, but IMO that is a shitty system that would cause many many many issues. It already has bugs and it is only in a few zones. Apply that to the whole world and it would be a nightmare, and extremely confusing for new players.

    Actually, now that I think about it, the fact that they are having Dragonriding races in Kalimdor is a huge blow on the chances of a revamp like the one you mention.
    Last edited by Darkarath; 2023-05-11 at 09:19 PM.
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  17. #5597
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkarath View Post
    It is a possibility, but IMO that is a shitty system that would cause many many many issues. It already has bugs and it is only in a few zones. Apply that to the whole world and it would be a nightmare, and extremely confusing for new players.
    New players don't even touch the old world. The game makes it very clear to guide them away from it. You start at exile's reach, go to BfA zones, go to Dragon Isles. Next xpac, probably Exile's Reach and then Dragon Isles. The only people who get confused are returning players who expect things to have stayed static since they left.

  18. #5598
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    So when's PTR going up? I need data!!

  19. #5599
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    New players don't even touch the old world. The game makes it very clear to guide them away from it. You start at exile's reach, go to BfA zones, go to Dragon Isles. Next xpac, probably Exile's Reach and then Dragon Isles. The only people who get confused are returning players who expect things to have stayed static since they left.
    I think there's a VERY slight chance next expansion brings new level-up areas for after Exiles Reach, but Dragon Isles makes for a better "first expansion" than BFA for sure.

  20. #5600
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I think there's a VERY slight chance next expansion brings new level-up areas for after Exiles Reach, but Dragon Isles makes for a better "first expansion" than BFA for sure.
    Blizzard should allow players to level in the current expansion. When the story is done they can keep leveling through WQs. The tech is there and they have been using it for a while. They just need one more step to get it right.

    In such a way, a world revamp would be easier to do IMO, as all zones could be relevant to all players.
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