The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

Yes legion the expansion with a new class and essentially an overhaul of every spec

We know
8 dungeons
4 zones
1 raid
13 delves
1 new race

That's it

Still, delves alone suggest we get more content than we got in DF

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"Great content" I think you forgot you're talking about BFA. We don't need retroactive cope here.

I liked almost all of the content in BfA and did when it was current too. My issue was Azerite and certain elements of the story (not all, BfA also had some amazing storytelling like e.g. Jaina up until the end of the second raid when Anduin's presence somehow lobotomizes her) and to a lesser extent, Corruptions (on one hand, I loved the power fantasy on the other I felt they relied too heavily on procs when designing them).

That said, I feel TWW will have more content than DF by virtue of the delves alone.

[Vakir]

Regarding content density differences, it's important to remember the old addage of "Fast, Quality, Cheap. Pick 2."

BFA had a lot more but the cadence was bad. It also had a contentious theme, as the faction conflict tends to feel pretty unsatisfying, and add the syrup of bad systems and you get a poor reception even if the amount of content is better.

Dragonflight has a better cadence and a more sustainable model, it's just universally agreed the tone and theme are bland as hell. I think it's a more sustainable model overall provided they keep making improvements that carry between expansions rather than abandon them.

[Nymrohd]

Regarding content density differences, it's important to remember the old addage of "Fast, Quality, Cheap. Pick 2."

BFA had a lot more but the cadence was bad. It also had a contentious theme, as the faction conflict tends to feel pretty unsatisfying, and add the syrup of bad systems and you get a poor reception even if the amount of content is better.

Dragonflight has a better cadence and a more sustainable model, it's just universally agreed the tone and theme are bland as hell. I think it's a more sustainable model overall provided they keep making improvements that carry between expansions rather than abandon them.

I just cannot be convinced that the same amount of development hours went into DF compared to BfA.

[Murlocos]

I think BfA's launch offering is one of the more potent showcases of how poorly designed content fares little better than no content in the eyes of the community, but the WoD debacle has tilted the quantity vs. quality debate over content firmly in the side of quantity for a long time now. The game was being designed around avoiding WoD again long after its release, even if that eventually lead to total burnout with systems.

DF has prioritized content delivery above all else, and I believe it's time for us to shift to the quality side of content. They've focused on reducing friction with the game and that's continuing into TWW, now it's on them to show they can deliver engaging new content and systems rather than just demonstrating they can pump out loads of quests as they have been with DF. If Delves are nailed correctly on release, I think a strong new endgame pillar will be a huge benefit to keeping the game fresh.

[Vakir]

I just cannot be convinced that the same amount of development hours went into DF compared to BfA.

They absolutely didn't! DF feels like a scrambled model to try and salvage a one two punch of problem expansions to get content out faster while a big team is apparently stepping on the gas to release a 3 parter faster which, yes, is gonna nickel and dime players to buy more boxes on average per period of time.

It's a question of whether you wanna buy into that. I totally get why some don't. But I like this future a lot more than BFA and SL being the norm. Wanting more because I have less is better than actively feeling internal anger and rage at playing at all. I can take a break just like when I unsub from 14 or stop a playthrough on a longer single player game, but I'm not furious while I play like those two absolute turkeys.

It'd be great if every expansion was Legion or Cata levels of ambition, not so much quality in the latter case, but this just isn't the same company or the same industry with how AAA games have devolved.

[Nymrohd]

I think BfA's launch offering is one of the more potent showcases of how poorly designed content fares little better than no content in the eyes of the community, but the WoD debacle has tilted the quantity vs. quality debate over content firmly in the side of quantity for a long time now. The game was being designed around avoiding WoD again long after its release, even if that eventually lead to total burnout with systems.

DF has prioritized content delivery above all else, and I believe it's time for us to shift to the quality side of content. They've focused on reducing friction with the game and that's continuing into TWW, now it's on them to show they can deliver engaging new content and systems rather than just demonstrating they can pump out loads of quests as they have been with DF. If Delves are nailed correctly on release, I think a strong new endgame pillar will be a huge benefit to keeping the game fresh.

See, if you separate gameplay systems from content, I don't think BfA's lacked quality. It has some of the best questing zones ever, most of the raids were between good and great, the dungeons were almost all solid, the islands were so interesting as set pieces etc. But almost every system attached to the content was just bad; Azerite was a mess, the gameplay for IEs did not much the content (which very much lent itself to exploration instead of rushing), warfronts, the affixes in the first two seasons were so bad . . .

[Marlamin]

Is this thread hidden or something? Doesn't seem to show in forums anymore?

It was moved to the new category for The War Within, if it doesn't show up on e.g. frontpage you might have to update your filters to add the new forum.

[Nymrohd]

It'd be great if every expansion was Legion or Cata levels of ambition, not so much quality in the latter case, but this just isn't the same company or the same industry with how AAA games have devolved.

I still feel BfA is the most ambitious expansion. Warfronts and AI mobs for Islands (and the Arathi AI bg) are all innovations.
Delves will be interesting. I really wonder how Brann's behaviour will be managed and if he will be escort quest from hell or not.

[Murlocos]

See, if you separate gameplay systems from content, I don't think BfA's lacked quality. It has some of the best questing zones ever, most of the raids were between good and great, the dungeons were almost all solid, the islands were so interesting as set pieces etc. But almost every system attached to the content was just bad; Azerite was a mess, the gameplay for IEs did not much the content (which very much lent itself to exploration instead of rushing), warfronts, the affixes in the first two seasons were so bad . . .

The delineation between content and systems is nebulous, but I'd consider stuff like Warfronts and Island Expeditions 'content' compared to Azerite being more of a system. Warfronts ultimately just dump you gear at the end, after all. It was a whole bunch of pain points amplifying each other as you did content that wasn't very enjoyable to engage with systems that proved to be headaches.

BfA had a lot going on that was conceptually interesting but fell apart in practice with minimal testing; we saw that with Azerite armor, and I'll always be a high key Warfront hater in every respect in being utterly baffled how they only got worse going from Stromgarde to Darkshore. Then SL came out and had glaring conceptual problems or repeated mistakes that they seemed to think they could solve by just believing hard enough. DF and TWW (so far) have lacked those kinds of headaches, I'm just looking for some actual meat now.

[Nymrohd]

The delineation between content and systems is nebulous, but I'd consider stuff like Warfronts and Island Expeditions 'content' compared to Azerite being more of a system. Warfronts ultimately just dump you gear at the end, after all. It was a whole bunch of pain points amplifying each other as you did content that wasn't very enjoyable to engage with systems that proved to be headaches.

BfA had a lot going on that was conceptually interesting but fell apart in practice with minimal testing; we saw that with Azerite armor, and I'll always be a high key Warfront hater in every respect in being utterly baffled how they only got worse going from Stromgarde to Darkshore. Then SL came out and had glaring conceptual problems or repeated mistakes that they seemed to think they could solve by just believing hard enough. DF and TWW (so far) have lacked those kinds of headaches, I'm just looking for some actual meat now.

DF has one thing going for it and that is class gameplay. While it lacks the power fantasy of Legion and the versatility of MoP, most specs play quite well and the expansion is quite alt friendly. So while the content is imo at best average, the talent revamp has largely been a success (yes, some specs suck but it is thankfully very few of them. I hope they get to you all). It should be easy for them to not fuck this up and just improve it further but Hero Talents definitely have potential to disrupt all their work in DF.

[Vakir]

I still feel BfA is the most ambitious expansion. Warfronts and AI mobs for Islands (and the Arathi AI bg) are all innovations.
Delves will be interesting. I really wonder how Brann's behaviour will be managed and if he will be escort quest from hell or not.

It definitely was highly ambitious on paper. But good gravy did they fuck up almost every single aspect. More recently leaning a lot more on GW2 for outdoor content and 14 for trade skills and soon account allowances is a godsend compared to...whatever the fuck those things were.

Warfronts were probably THE most excited I've been for a feature in practice given the franchise pedigree as an RTS first. I still think there's a version of it that could work. But it would have zero semblance to what we got.

[Nymrohd]

It definitely was highly ambitious on paper. But good gravy did they fuck up almost every single aspect. More recently leaning a lot more on GW2 for outdoor content and 14 for trade skills and soon account allowances is a godsend compared to...whatever the fuck those things were.

Now if only they could copy ESO's housing

[huth]

Are you serious?
7 Large zones, 1 small zone, 4 revamped zones
38 raid encounters
10 dungeons, 1 megadungeon
2 warfronts, 11 island expeditions, 2 Visions
1 Battleground, 1 revamped battleground, 2 zones revamped as epic battlegrounds, 3 new arenas

7 medium zones (that together weren't bigger than DF on release), 1 small zone, 2 revamped zones that were mostly new rares, 2 non-revamped zones that got new quests. And that was by 8.3, not by release.

[Revamp Man]

"Great content" I think you forgot you're talking about BFA. We don't need retroactive cope here.

The islands were a fun little lore dump
The expedition system ruined it because it was the main way to gain AP

Visions were cool little challenge runs
Mechagon and the nazjatar were two zones but because of benthic pearls and the rep garbage the fun stuff got overlooked

I mean look back at any actual content and the complaints will mostly be about the attached systems

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DF has one thing going for it and that is class gameplay. While it lacks the power fantasy of Legion and the versatility of MoP, most specs play quite well and the expansion is quite alt friendly. So while the content is imo at best average, the talent revamp has largely been a success (yes, some specs suck but it is thankfully very few of them. I hope they get to you all). It should be easy for them to not fuck this up and just improve it further but Hero Talents definitely have potential to disrupt all their work in DF.

I'm still confused about the hero talent system in do we get a choice between two per main spec or is it just a 1:1

[Cheezits]

Now if only they could copy ESO's housing

Midnight makes sense to introduce housing considering the zones, but maybe we will get a twist reveal with Amirdrassil opening up housing for the first time?

[Marlamin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8zWAPDUTkc 1 hour Q&A, ~30 min retail ~30 min classic

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'll just sit here and await any quotes you'd like to provide from War of the Scaleborn which refute that the Dragon Aspects are of Order, use the Titans' magic, and serve the Titan agenda.

While you go find those, I'll just be chilling over here in one of these Titan facilities alongside the Aspects, trying to ressurect Tyr or constructing some Titan prison mechanisms.

lol you keep moving that goalpost every time your wrong don’t you.

Nan I’m good I’ll sit here content that’s every point up To now you have made has been wrong and even directly disputed by blizzard.

[Ersula]

You do realize the Worldsoul Saga was made to start up the next 20 years of WoW, yeah? Also, the Progenitors exist to build up new stories in WoW. They never never made to replace the Titans or so.

They said the same sort of thing about Shadowlands. Red Flag.

Metzen only being on stage for 5 minutes spouting the same platitudes we got for 9.0 shriveled up all my hype.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I am not surprised they won't answer the faster cadence question. It seems like they will hold onto that trump card for the "Augment Rune announced for 11.2" like they depend on it.

The Narrative will always be the first thing on the chopping block for the Development Team to axe. We've seen so for the past few expansions. So the entire promise from the Team that has never cared about the Narrative is beyond comedic at this point.

Baffled at this point that they think they can stretch this charade of not going over the Raid Tier/Major patch question for each box set and instead leaving it as another "SURPRISE! RUGPULLED".

[Valysar]

3 more updates for DF, I suppose 10.2.5 / 10.2.7 / 10.2.9 ?