The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Sondrelk]

It does. And I admit, there is more room for a Hallowsfall megadungeon than there is for a new zone that isn't Azeroth's core. It doesn't seem like an expansion that would open up another zone.

But is it worth $50-90? If they confirm shorter expansions after selling box price for the usual amount, there will be a scandal.

Expansions do have more stuff, and games have become more expensive, so who knows.
AAA games have become a pool of overprices stuff in general, so even if I think it's exorbitant I cannot really fault Blizzard for following market trends. A general shift isn't going to come from an annual expansion being half price sadly.

And lets be honest. The price of the expansion itself is a tiny amount. The real scummy thing is giving three days early access to the launch. Even with all kinds of stuff not being added until the launch opens for everyone, it's scummy to prey on players desire to get in early by adding that price.

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I doubt they're aiming for annual. Maybe year and a half, but not just one. Note how they say they want to be done before 2030, which barely even requires speeding up.

I think they said 2030 more so because that allows them plenty of time to pivot away from Annual expansions if they don't work out.

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Fated is bad enough as is with only three raids, it's gonna be a disaster with two raids lmao.

Depends on how long it lasts.

For that matter, most of what made Fated season interesting in Shadowlands is no longer that interesting. Older dungeons being brought back as a replacement for current expansion dungeons is already standard, and Blizzard has acknowledged that. So I don't think it's a stretch to assume more stuff will be added to it.

[Well Done Steak]

Geez that concept is embarrassingly old at this point. I would put tons of changes to it....

Anyways I'll give it a whirl;

Mekgineer: (tank and Healing) Tank side increases the survivability of the mech, the Healing side increases the healing power and duration of the mech.

Gadgeteer: (DPS and heals) Increases the duration and power of your robotic summons (Pocket Factory, Turrets, Bomb Bots, etc.)

Demolition: (Tank and DPS) Increases the power, radius, and firing range of your explosive abilities (Xplodium Chage, Cluster Rockets, Gravity Bomb, etc.)

That's how I view it at least.

I'm down as long as demolition has some kind of ability that uses sea shells

[Varodoc]

Let's not exaggerate with cutting down raid tiers.

Some modern expansions like Legion and BfA definitely had too many raids from a story perspective. Emerald Nightmare was essentially filler, as was Battle of Dazar'alor (what purpose BoD served to the story aside from replacing a troll king with his daughter?).

But these expansions still need at least three raids to breathe.

Dragonflight is the perfect model going forward. One launch tier, one .1 tier, and one .2 tier.

This way, the story can cut down on filler while also retaining some room to breathe.

[micwini]

Let's not exaggerate with cutting down raid tiers.

Some modern expansions like Legion and BfA definitely had too many raids from a story perspective. Emerald Nightmare was essentially filler, as was Battle of Dazar'alor (what purpose BoD served to the story aside from replacing a troll king with his daughter?).

But these expansions still need at least three raids to breathe.

Dragonflight is the perfect model going forward. One launch tier, one .1 tier, and one .2 tier.

This way, the story can cut down on filler while also retaining some room to breathe.

Im surprised the most by DF only having 3 raids, exactly because Sarkareth felt filler. Probably the least worthy end of raid boss of all time.

[Sondrelk]

Let's not exaggerate with cutting down raid tiers.

Some modern expansions like Legion and BfA definitely had too many raids from a story perspective. Emerald Nightmare was essentially filler, as was Battle of Dazar'alor (what purpose BoD served to the story aside from replacing a troll king with his daughter?).

But these expansions still need at least three raids to breathe.

Dragonflight is the perfect model going forward. One launch tier, one .1 tier, and one .2 tier.

This way, the story can cut down on filler while also retaining some room to breathe.

I feel like this is one of those where the Megadungeon comes into play. In all iterations before DF the Megadungeon was a pure distraction. Legion was the closest to having it be relevant, and that was mostly due to fighting the Legion some more. Both BfA and SL could have scrapped the megadungeon and not lost anything from a story perspective.

What I think they should do is consider the possibility of turning one of the raids into a megadungeon. Would the story impact of Aberrus have been lessened significantly if it was a Megadungeon for instance?

In the case of an annual expansion I think it would be perfectly feasible to have two major raid tiers separated by a narratively significant megandungeon, like what the current Megadungeon in many ways was.


In the case of TWW I imagine you have the first raid. Then a Hallowfall megadungeon. Then the raid in Uldaz to cap it off.

[Cheezits]

Yeah I don't think they counted on so much of the fanbase having a problem with the Megadungeon and Raid story importance being swapped.

However... is it an actual issue, or a MMOC/lore/story fan problem? Because I'm not sure players care too much.

[Sondrelk]

Im surprised the most by DF only having 3 raids, exactly because Sarkareth felt filler. Probably the least worthy end of raid boss of all time.

It's more surprising to me that Aberrus and Dawn of the Infinite felt like they might have swapped places. Like Aberrus should have been the megadungeon, and Dawn of the Infinite should have been the raid.
I am getting the same feeling I get looking back at the DS dungeons, where it feels like they felt compelled to have dungeons alongside the raid, even if that meant taking all the best ideas and spreading them too thin.

[Cheezits]

It's more surprising to me that Aberrus and Dawn of the Infinite felt like they might have swapped places. Like Aberrus should have been the megadungeon, and Dawn of the Infinite should have been the raid.

It's kind of a nobrainer that they went with a Blackwing-themed raid over an Infinite raid for a dragon expansion, I don't think they expected people to be so invested in the Murozond plot. Unless its because they have some gigabrain 10 year plan for the new Nozdormu/Murozond story so they aren't frontloading it.

Then again, if they just had Neltharion's Ghost or Clone be the final boss instead of the penultimate boss, I bet people would shut up about it being filler.

[Paula Deen]

For the record, I am pretty neutral on the whole plot of DF (Love the villains though), I think it would have been a crazy mistake to bring Nozdormu/Murozond's plot to the raid. Historically time stuff has been very poorly handled lorewise and the last thing they wanted this expansion was another lore controversy after everything from BFA to Shadowlands.

I think the weakest story of the entire expansion is irrelevant to either plot. The Primalist, atleast so far, are just poorly explained. What makes them different than the Twilight Cultist of Cata that we know still exists? What makes them different than the Druids of the Flame we are getting tomorrow? More of it just needed to be explained in the game I feel.

Additionally, I think they have done a great job incorporating the raid stories into the world. If anyone in here has an alt that has not done the raid you do get a few breadcrumbs where you see what happened. They do that with patch cinematics too!

[Murlocos]

Yeah I don't think they counted on so much of the fanbase having a problem with the Megadungeon and Raid story importance being swapped.

However... is it an actual issue, or a MMOC/lore/story fan problem? Because I'm not sure players care too much.

Players not caring is ultimately an actual issue, it's a missed opportunity to garner goodwill and keep more players invested in your game. I think the headaches with DF's story are contained to the more dedicated lore fans compared to SL where the story was enduring widespread mockery, but those that aren't previously invested don't seem to be captivated by it.

In this specific case, I'm not sure how much swapping the two would have made a difference when the same problems would likely have arisen: the bronze story ends with an anti-climax and cliffhanger, the black story feels like you're trapped in a timeloop where characters have the same conversation about Legacy™ on repeat and have inconsistent personalities until the most boring, milquetoast character becomes aspect precisely because he's boring and milquetoast.

About the wider conversation, we can't say anything about how DF's cadence and patch cycle has worked until we have a release date for TWW and know all of the content that will be coming prior. I think there's a conversation to be had that was brought up earlier about how much patches are primarily meant to dole out more raids, and if raiding is becoming less popular as the game ages, it's worth re-examining what's prioritized. However, it's just too early to say if this model is superior until the expansion is said and done; I can tell you I'd take a hypothetical 10.3 over what we got in 10.0.7 and 10.1.7, but we have to see what else we're getting first.

[Samin]

I think the weakest story of the entire expansion is irrelevant to either plot. The Primalist, atleast so far, are just poorly explained. What makes them different than the Twilight Cultist of Cata that we know still exists? What makes them different than the Druids of the Flame we are getting tomorrow? More of it just needed to be explained in the game I feel.

Weren't Twilight Cultists void/old god worshippers?

I also don't see the confusion with the Druids of the Flame. Just because they are fire aligned which happens to be an element doesn't really leave confusion about their distinction from Primalists. It does explain their cooperation though (especially with Fyrakk effectively taking over the Primalist leadership)

I mean Primalists are poorly explained in game there is no question about that, but even without the context of the recent novel, I don't really see how there is lack of differentiation to either DotF or Twilight Cultists.


Otherwise by that logic you might have to question "what makes a Fire Mage different than a Destruction Warlock?"

[Lady Atia]

Surely it would be problematic more so because of potential raids you missed out on. For TWW that could probably be a Hallowfall raid for instance.

I can't really imagine the Fated season would be an issue. Especially if it becomes more of a Timewalking extravaganza like I imagine they might move to make it.

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Imagine this for an annual expansion.

Launch with a raid. Two minor patches, including a megadungeon.
Major patch with raid. Two minor patches, including a fated raid season that includes a Timewalking raid of some description.

I think it would work.

The thing is .... while I love mythic raiding, I don't think it's a good idea to still try to push raids hard in 2023, because they are simply no longer the main thing people want to do in WoW these days. Not sure if we will get anual expansions as 2 seasons would indeed feel a bit short, but maybe 3 could work if they add one older timewalking raid to the fated system? That would still give us 16-18 months per expansion with overall 2 new raids, 1-2 new megadungeons?

[Cheezits]

Fated Firelands would make a LOT of sense as the last raid, but maybe people would be sick of all the lava/fire at that point. Dragon Soul might fit more and be more varied but it sucks.

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In other news, I will be blown away if 10.2.5 heritage isn't Trolls when the Ardenweald people are right there.

[Lady Atia]

Yeah I don't think they counted on so much of the fanbase having a problem with the Megadungeon and Raid story importance being swapped.

However... is it an actual issue, or a MMOC/lore/story fan problem? Because I'm not sure players care too much.

I'm quite sure more players finished the Megadungeon on Mythic than Sarkareth Mythic. So no, I think most players aren't that mad about them being switched, importance wise. Megadungeons already feel like fun mini-raids, so why not utilise that?

[huth]

I think they said 2030 more so because that allows them plenty of time to pivot away from Annual expansions if they don't work out.

Unlikely. The buffer would be bigger than the running time of the expansions. I find it more likely they're aiming for 18-20 months. Which isn't really all that different from previous expansions.

18 months would still leave them with about a year of buffer.

[Berkilak]

They're subspecs. Literally. Specs are already Subclasses, so that'd make them Sub-Subclasses.

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Well, he was assumed to be dead up until Legion.

By who? Dude returned in WCIII by unknown means and has been at large ever since.

[Merryck]

Where the Fel is Medivh?

[Walrusking]

By who? Dude returned in WCIII by unknown means and has been at large ever since.

I'm pretty sure the average consensus amongst lore nerds was he returned to being dead after WC3, before Legion showed he's just been dicking around in the Nether.
"I will take my place amongst the legends of the past."

[huth]

By who? Dude returned in WCIII by unknown means and has been at large ever since.

WC3 it wasn't even clear if he was actually there or just a vision. And he didn't show up anywhere for over a decade afterwards.

[Scyth]

It's more surprising to me that Aberrus and Dawn of the Infinite felt like they might have swapped places. Like Aberrus should have been the megadungeon, and Dawn of the Infinite should have been the raid.
I am getting the same feeling I get looking back at the DS dungeons, where it feels like they felt compelled to have dungeons alongside the raid, even if that meant taking all the best ideas and spreading them too thin.

I never thought about it but now that you mention it I think they definitely should have done that. The Aberrus story, for me at least, was not interesting enough for a main patch. Sarkareth as a main boss was also a massive miss imo