The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Aucald]

I do understand your point regarding Ebyssian being well-suited to lead from the get-go, but I also would contest that Sabellian and Wrathion are being presented in a wholly-undistorted capacity. You appear to have misconstrued me on account of suggesting that I believe the portrayal of Wrathion as an immature imbecile or Sabellian as an overbearing prick to be inaccurate; quite the contrary, those traits are defining aspects of their respective characters (the latter moreso, on account of how little character he had pre-DF). However, although Wrathion has always been brash and misguided, and Sabellian has always been a prick, these qualities appear to, at a certain point in the story, grow to such an extent that I can't help but view as transparent and indulgent. It does feel as though there was a conscious effort undertaken to move away from making either of those characters seem viable simply on account of how gratuitous their astonishing dickery has been throughout the patch.

This goes further toward my point that neither Wrathion nor Sabellian would make for a good Aspect - whether it's being brash and misguided, or being a misanthropic prick, you don't want either of these personality types amplified by feeding them untold Titanic power.

As for my personal opposition to Ebyssian taking the role, I'm simply of the mind that he's perfectly suited on a Watsonian level, which is precisely why I'm opposed to it. It will offer minimal potential conflict in the future. Ideally, this ought to be a long-term thing. If not that, then Sabellian should win. If not him, Wrathion. Ebyssian is only preferable to Emberthal or some kind of "democracy good" aesop crammed lovingly down our throats, with his only real narrative advantage being a nice subversion on the tired "look! The young leader totally owns those old farts who "know what they're doing"! Look at our new cool ohsee who is totally going to upend the status quo!" and that it allows Sabellian and Wrathion to go off to do their own things and preempts the personality-deprivation which appears to come with the position of Aspect. The negative traits of Wrathion and Sabellian generate conflict. While it's certainly preferable to have somebody benevolently placid and markedly competent take charge in reality, fiction demands motion, and imbecility or overbearing dickery are conducive to motion.

I understand the desire for conflict in the story of a game, but I don't agree that the potential for conflict should come at the expense of either internal consistency or the suspension of common sense. I don't want an obviously bad choice to be made solely because the outcome of living through it would be "fun," this detracts from the narrative in the longer term, and goes more toward ruining immersion than it any short-term narrative gains it might provide. Sure, either Wrathion or Sabellian would be the best choice if your sole interest was maximum carnage - but the decision to anoint either of them would be dumb, especially if it's willingly done by the other Aspects or by the mandate of the Titans. Now if Wrathion or Sabellian were to somehow "steal" the mantle of Aspectral power you'd have a different kind of story, one that I could get behind - but willingly choosing either of them at this point? It's a bad decision all around, both on the Watsonian and Doylist levels.

[Sondrelk]

Realm of Life and Emerald Dream are two very distinct things. Since Zereth Mortis, we know there is a "Zereth" realm for each force of the cosmos (Mortis, Lumen, Ordus, Vitae, Umbra, Tumult). The Emerald Dream is some sort of spirit world attached to Azeroth, so it is distinct from Zereth Vitae, even though it would probably be visually similar in some aspects (as both are realms heavily influenced by the force of Life). But we can't even be sure of that, after all... Zereth Mortis didn't really look like the rest of the Shadowlands!

The Dream and Zereth Vitae probably are connected, and I am not sure if we have confirmation of the "Lifelands" existing similarly to the Shadowlands?

The way I understood it is that the Zereths are the source of whatever cosmic realms. It just so happens that all the cosmic realms intersect to create reality.

The Emerald Dream just seems to me like the middle ground between the plane of existence Azeroth is in, and the Realms of Life proper. Similar to how the Shadowlands can be accessed from Azeroth, but there exists a separate Shadowlands further beyond that.

[Cheezits]

Realm of Life and Emerald Dream are two very distinct things. Since Zereth Mortis, we know there is a "Zereth" realm for each force of the cosmos (Mortis, Lumen, Ordus, Vitae, Umbra, Tumult). The Emerald Dream is some sort of spirit world attached to Azeroth, so it is distinct from Zereth Vitae, even though it would probably be visually similar in some aspects (as both are realms heavily influenced by the force of Life). But we can't even be sure of that, after all... Zereth Mortis didn't really look like the rest of the Shadowlands!

The Dream and Zereth Vitae probably are connected, and I am not sure if we have confirmation of the "Lifelands" existing similarly to the Shadowlands?

"The Gardens of Life" are namedropped by ONE quest NPC in Shadowlands and the Grimoire mentions a Life Pantheon, but that's about it. I think there's a mention in the Nathrezim book as well?

If they want to keep the old lore intact, I think they are going to go with "the Dream is a chunk of the Life Plane/Life "veil" that Freya carved out, maybe with Elune's blessing ". So if you walk further in you end up in the Life Plane, but the Dream is it's own pocket dimension.

[Paula Deen]

I would assume now that the World Revamp idea is out the window for sure. If they are spending valuable resources making races for the old world in the middle of an expansion, when they could save that for a World Revamp that would improve the environments and allow better 'tracks' later, I believe it is a pretty safe assumption.

All bets off then for 11.0

[Sondrelk]

This goes further toward my point that neither Wrathion nor Sabellian would make for a good Aspect - whether it's being brash and misguided, or being a misanthropic prick, you don't want either of these personality types amplified by feeding them untold Titanic power.



I understand the desire for conflict in the story of a game, but I don't agree that the potential for conflict should come at the expense of either internal consistency or the suspension of common sense. I don't want an obviously bad choice to be made solely because the outcome of living through it would be "fun," this detracts from the narrative in the longer term, and goes more toward ruining immersion than it any short-term narrative gains it might provide. Sure, either Wrathion or Sabellian would be the best choice if your sole interest was maximum carnage - but the decision to anoint either of them would be dumb, especially if it's willingly done by the other Aspects or by the mandate of the Titans. Now if Wrathion or Sabellian were to somehow "steal" the mantle of Aspectral power you'd have a different kind of story, one that I could get behind - but willingly choosing either of them at this point? It's a bad decision all around, both on the Watsonian and Doylist levels.

Both Sabellian and Wrathion could work as an aspect. It would just require one to get a character arc, and for the other to accept that they won't lead, which in itself is a character arc. Both of them are equally in need of being humbled though, so the choice between them is problematic because either are unsuited for that kind of story, it's meaningless because both characters are the same. Both have to learn exactly the same lesson of humility.
Once both have learned humility though, it's really a cointoss which one is better. Which means that the most likely outcome would have been for one to die. Or as we see happen on the PTR, for a third candidate to show up.

[Cheezits]

The way I understood it is that the Zereths are the source of whatever cosmic realms. It just so happens that all the cosmic realms intersect to create reality.

The Emerald Dream just seems to me like the middle ground between the plane of existence Azeroth is in, and the Realms of Life proper. Similar to how the Shadowlands can be accessed from Azeroth, but there exists a separate Shadowlands further beyond that.

Right. The "Azeroth Shadowlands" is the Veil of Death (I think it's referred to as such in SL or at least the Veil) and the 10.0.7 book on Azshara mentions she's hiding in the Void veil. So they are elaborating on the spaces between planes... maybe that will be the Nether as well?

But yeah the Dream may just be the Life veil. However, then what is the Ancestral Plane?

- - - Updated - - -

I would assume now that the World Revamp idea is out the window for sure. If they are spending valuable resources making races for the old world in the middle of an expansion, when they could save that for a World Revamp that would improve the environments and allow better 'tracks' later, I believe it is a pretty safe assumption.

All bets off then for 11.0

I still think a texture update may happen, as well as asset updates, but definitely no geography changes. There's too many updates to race related models and buildings that aren't currently relevant.

[Sondrelk]

I would assume now that the World Revamp idea is out the window for sure. If they are spending valuable resources making races for the old world in the middle of an expansion, when they could save that for a World Revamp that would improve the environments and allow better 'tracks' later, I believe it is a pretty safe assumption.

All bets off then for 11.0

An alternative reading is that they are looking at the old world, and deciding that while they are doing revamps and what have you, they can also add Dragonriding.
If anything, the fact that they are adding Dragonriding to the old world is in itself a good argument for them prepping the area for actual content in the future.

If a world revamp necessarily had to be on the level of what we had in Cata then them putting effort in might be meaningless. But for most zones all that is needed is a new coat of paint. Nothing that would necessarily interfere with the Dragonriding being added.
Don't forget, we do have updates to content in areas where Dragonriding currently exists, so it's not like that content puts a giant restriction on that specific area forever.

[Valysar]

I saw the other day someone point out that some of the promo pictures for this patch had a white dragonriding mount in it, so maybe we'll get it at some point now?

Also still amused at people thinking Fyrakk's lasting beyond this patch.

Well, it seems that the combination of all Dragonflights results in a white color

[Sondrelk]

Right. The "Azeroth Shadowlands" is the Veil of Death (I think it's referred to as such in SL or at least the Veil) and the 10.0.7 book on Azshara mentions she's hiding in the Void veil. So they are elaborating on the spaces between planes... maybe that will be the Nether as well?

But yeah the Dream may just be the Life veil. However, then what is the Ancestral Plane?

- - - Updated - - -



I still think a texture update may happen, as well as asset updates, but definitely no geography changes. There's too many updates to race related models and buildings that aren't currently relevant.

They could also just make a new set of Dragonriding races. Unless the zone entirely disappears (unlikely after the outrage in Cata), the races would be available to anyone who goes to those old versions of the zones.

[Fahrad Wagner]

I would assume now that the World Revamp idea is out the window for sure. If they are spending valuable resources making races for the old world in the middle of an expansion, when they could save that for a World Revamp that would improve the environments and allow better 'tracks' later, I believe it is a pretty safe assumption.

All bets off then for 11.0

Yo Butter Queen! It's been a while! That was my argument as well... but others assumed these could just be ported into the World Revamp, so Idk. So far my money is on Avaloren / Pirate expansion!

[Sondrelk]

Yo Butter Queen! It's been a while! That was my argument as well... but others assumed these could just be ported into the World Revamp, so Idk. So far my money is on Avaloren / Pirate expansion!

I don't see why they couldnt be ported in. Or if not, why they couldnt just be considered obsolete Dragonriding content, like what the Dragon Isles races will be in the next expansion.

Not to mention, Timewalking is likely to get big updates, and in that scenario a Timewalking zone would absolutely be on the table. No reason why it couldnt just be considered part of that content, similar to how old dungeons are effectively considered Timewalking dungeons currently.

[Fahrad Wagner]

I don't see why they couldnt be ported in. Or if not, why they couldnt just be considered obsolete Dragonriding content, like what the Dragon Isles races will be in the next expansion.

Not to mention, Timewalking is likely to get big updates, and in that scenario a Timewalking zone would absolutely be on the table. No reason why it couldnt just be considered part of that content, similar to how old dungeons are effectively considered Timewalking dungeons currently.

It would be kind of a shame to develop this to have it go irrelevant next expansion. I expect dragon races to stay, at least in some form, but perhaps I'm dead wrong on that-

Zereth Vitae and the Dream are not at all similar...

I said probably visually similar, please read carefully. That means Zereth Vitae is probably very lush, and green similar to the dream, but then again... we don't know that as we haven't been to Zereth Vitae. Which I've also said with my comparison to Zereth Mortis not looking like the rest of the Shadowlands.

[Aucald]

Zereth Vitae and the Dream are not at all similar...

Zereth Vitae struck me as being probably more similar to the deeper layers of the Emerald Dream as briefly mentioned in the War of the Ancients trilogy - a layer of the Dream so primordial and fundamentally alien as to be nigh unrecognizable. Probably more akin to the protoform realm we saw in Zereth Mortis, albeit probably even more overgrown with examples of protoform flora and fauna.

[Cheezits]

I think Zereth Mortis was supposed to be the "default" Zereth state, as it was untouched by any forces until the Jailer invaded. However considering Elune is... Elune (seems to have fingers in multiple powers), the Titans seemingly entered and left Zereth Ordos, and the fact that a Fel and Void Zereth even exists seems to imply that the other Zereths got fucked with to some extent. So, if they are ever explored, Blizz will have them look radically different to keep them distinctive.

I still have good money on Zereth Umbra being the engine that the Void Lords use to create Flesh and the Old Gods.

[Berkilak]

Zereth Vitae struck me as being probably more similar to the deeper layers of the Emerald Dream as briefly mentioned in the War of the Ancients trilogy - a layer of the Dream so primordial and fundamentally alien as to be nigh unrecognizable. Probably more akin to the protoform realm we saw in Zereth Mortis, albeit probably even more overgrown with examples of protoform flora and fauna.

I'm not sure about this. I mean, look at Zereth Mortis. Nothing about that screamed "death." It was filled to bursting with vegetation and robotic animals. Based on that, I wouldn't necessarily believe that any of the remaining Zereths are environmentally in sync with the cosmic power they represent.

[Cheezits]

I'm not sure about this. I mean, look at Zereth Mortis. Nothing about that screamed "death." It was filled to bursting with vegetation and robotic animals. Based on that, I wouldn't necessarily believe that any of the remaining Zereths are environmentally in sync with the cosmic power they represent.

Mortis wasn't Death-y because it had to be different from the rest of the expansion, but I have a feeling other Zereths have been tampered with by their Pantheons.

[huth]

I think Zereth Mortis was supposed to be the "default" Zereth state, as it was untouched by any forces until the Jailer invaded. However considering Elune is... Elune (seems to have fingers in multiple powers), the Titans seemingly entered and left Zereth Ordos, and the fact that a Fel and Void Zereth even exists seems to imply that the other Zereths got fucked with to some extent. So, if they are ever explored, Blizz will have them look radically different to keep them distinctive.

I still have good money on Zereth Umbra being the engine that the Void Lords use to create Flesh and the Old Gods.

I think it depends on the nature of the force as well. Order beings can be expected to follow rules, so simply telling them "Don't mess with x" would be sufficient to keep them from causing issues. Void and Disorder on the other hand may be way more difficult to access because messing around with everything is literally in their nature.

[Khaza-R]

Hopefully the Zereths are only involved where it makes sense for the plot. Otherwise its entirely too formulated and predictable to go to one every expansion because said evil force wants to wield some universe destroying device.

[Nebron]

Realm of Life and Emerald Dream are two very distinct things. Since Zereth Mortis, we know there is a "Zereth" realm for each force of the cosmos (Mortis, Lumen, Ordus, Vitae, Umbra, Tumult). The Emerald Dream is some sort of spirit world attached to Azeroth, so it is distinct from Zereth Vitae, even though it would probably be visually similar in some aspects (as both are realms heavily influenced by the force of Life). But we can't even be sure of that, after all... Zereth Mortis didn't really look like the rest of the Shadowlands!

The Dream and Zereth Vitae probably are connected, and I am not sure if we have confirmation of the "Lifelands" existing similarly to the Shadowlands?

Ahhh, we're talking about the stuff that came from the Oracle, I guess it clicked now, thanks!
It's more like an induction, right?
Zereth Mortis was a part of something called Shadowlands. We know there are other "Zereths", thus we assume there might be counterparts to Shadowlands?

[Sondrelk]

It would be kind of a shame to develop this to have it go irrelevant next expansion. I expect dragon races to stay, at least in some form, but perhaps I'm dead wrong on that-



I said probably visually similar, please read carefully. That means Zereth Vitae is probably very lush, and green similar to the dream, but then again... we don't know that as we haven't been to Zereth Vitae. Which I've also said with my comparison to Zereth Mortis not looking like the rest of the Shadowlands.

Most content is irrelevant once the next expansion rolls around. Even stuff like Pet Battles which don't rely on a traditional gearing curve is still by all accounts obsolete content once the next expansion rolls around.
That doesn't mean however that it needs to be dead content.

I imagine that whatever world Revamp would have had new dragonriding races regardless. Not really a winning formula to rely on content most players have already completed. Even more so when you don't recycle them.