The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

Was it?
A single raid more but noticeably less playable content

Are you serious?
7 Large zones, 1 small zone, 4 revamped zones
38 raid encounters
10 dungeons, 1 megadungeon
2 warfronts, 11 island expeditions, 2 Visions
1 Battleground, 1 revamped battleground, 2 zones revamped as epic battlegrounds, 3 new arenas

[Ersula]

Nothing like any of this exist for the aspects as the titans were dead and so was Tyr there contact to the keepers.

He's clearly just headcanoning, but the way Blizzard feels if they keep things vague enough, they can retcon anything, we can't put these ideas past them.

Are you serious?
7 Large zones, 1 small zone, 4 revamped zones
38 raid encounters
10 dungeons, 1 megadungeon
2 warfronts, 11 island expeditions, 2 Visions
1 Battleground, 1 revamped battleground, 2 zones revamped as epic battlegrounds, 3 new arenas

This is true. BFA & Legion were about 150% the size of Shadowlands & Dragonflight. And TWW is looking like its going to be the latter, not the former.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

When the universe formed, Light and Shadow clashed endlessly. Shards of Light were flung into the physical universe, and seeded Life on the worlds that they crashed into. One crashed into Azeroth and is now located in Hallowfall. That's when the worldsoul and the Elementals sprung to life on Azeroth.

Actually, I didn't think of it until you mentioned it, but that would make sense. It looks more "primordial" in nature than other Light-based objects, so it could've been one of those shards mentioned in Chronicles.

[Vakir]

Me'dan was a comic ordeal, so it not being canon was almost a given regardless, and Rhonin dying is whatever, since he didn't do much in the actual game.

They disregarded him moreso as a result of his poor reception, not because it was a comic. The comic is still the bedrock for much of Varian's origin and continuing characters from that same story such as Reh'gar.

Rhonin not doing much in game also doesn't change the amount of influence resultant from how deeply unpopular he was.

Fans can be stupid and shouldn't have total control over everything, especially since sometimes they don't even understand what they want, but on rare occasions the writing is on the wall that a certain direction wasn't the best.

It's extrapolation in some ways, I know, but I really don't think it's a coincidence that they're framing the Worldsoul Saga as a 3 part finale about a vast conspiracy dating back to the beginnings of Warcraft, closing the chapter on the last 20 years... not long after they said SL's final patch was the finale of a chapter stemming from the last 20 years and...if you count Sylvanas being appointed by Vol'jin in Legion and her actions surrounding that, it was a 3 expansion setup surrounding a similar "vast conspiracy" dating back to Warcraft's beginnings.

Only now it's more about the beings we were built to care about over 20+ years, not some fucking 3D printers made by a lazy attempt at creating a bigger fish in the lore.

Sometimes big changes and retcons create story opportunities, like the Draenei back in 2006, but sometimes they just suck shit and need to be taken out back.

[Revamp Man]

He's clearly just headcanoning, but the way Blizzard feels if they keep things vague enough, they can retcon anything, we can't put these ideas past them.

This is true. BFA & Legion were about 150% the size of Shadowlands & Dragonflight. And TWW is looking like its going to be the latter, not the former.

We know 0 about the size of tww

[Ersula]

Actually, I didn't think of it until you mentioned it, but that would make sense. It looks more "primordial" in nature than other Light-based objects, so it could've been one of those shards mentioned in Chronicles.

Which doesn't actually explain why or how it seeded life on Azeroth. Chronicles itself establish Life & Light are two unrelated things. How did a shard of light seed life on any worlds? Or are we supposed to take a scientific angle to this creation myth? Was the Shard covered in terrestrial bacterias?

We know 0 about the size of tww

Well, considering the amount of actual game footage they showed was about an eighth of what it was for Legion's reveal...

[Revamp Man]

Are you serious?
7 Large zones, 1 small zone, 4 revamped zones
38 raid encounters
10 dungeons, 1 megadungeon
2 warfronts, 11 island expeditions, 2 Visions
1 Battleground, 1 revamped battleground, 2 zones revamped as epic battlegrounds, 3 new arenas

I can't lie I forgot about most of that
Like most expansions
Great content
Crap systems that effect the content

[Lorgar Aurelian]

As for the Aspects, we don't really know what their connection to the Titans' directive really is. You're assuming they're just walking around blindly, but for all we know they may have been given precise orders by their makers. Tyr might have instructed them exactly how to place enemies they do not want to see dead inside stasis chambers.

Mate we literally just had a novel release that addresses all of this.

We know for a fact that they were doing things blindly and that they didn’t even have vague orders let alone precise ones nor was there even any instincts imparted on them in how to deal with things, they also had no contact with the keepers beyond Tyr’s death hundreds of years before the prisons were even thought up, this is all brought up in the novel multiple times.

Not only do your ideas have no basis in the lore they are are directly refuted by blizzard them self in there latest release.

[Revamp Man]

Which doesn't actually explain why or how it seeded life on Azeroth. Chronicles itself establish Life & Light are two unrelated things. How did a shard of light seed life on any worlds? Or are we supposed to take a scientific angle to this creation myth? Was the Shard covered in terrestrial bacterias?
Well, considering the amount of actual game footage they showed was about an eighth of what it was for Legion's reveal...

Yes legion the expansion with a new class and essentially an overhaul of every spec

We know
8 dungeons
4 zones
1 raid
13 delves
1 new race

That's it

[Lorgar Aurelian]

He's clearly just headcanoning, but the way Blizzard feels if they keep things vague enough, they can retcon anything, we can't put these ideas past them.

it is all head canon ya but blizzard hasn’t been vague on this stuff they make it all rather clear in there novel which they could of course still retcon.

[Zaganite]

I think it's possible (but not guaranteed by any means) that Sargeras initially wanted to destroy Azeroth's worldsoul in order to prevent her from being born as a super powerful Titan, who would threat upending his plans to create a Dark Pantheon and be unstoppable in the universe.

But then he had a vision of the worldsoul inside the core, and understood something significant about her.

Perhaps he saw her vast potential.
Perhaps he saw that she was being kept in stasis by the Titans, unable to do anything, and figured he needs to set her free.
Perhaps he saw that she was already consumed by darkness, and setting her free would benefit him.

We don't know, but it's fun to think about.

I think "The Last Titan" could refer to Sargeras or Azeroth, but I'm currently leaning to the former.

I thought it was pretty clear since Legion that Sargeras was aiming for Azeroth. Now with the alluded "Azeroth is a prisoner" theories going around, my new belief is he was aiming to free her from the prison. Only time will tell.

[Ersula]

I can't lie I forgot about most of that
Like most expansions
Great content
Crap systems that effect the content

"Great content" I think you forgot you're talking about BFA. We don't need retroactive cope here.

[Nymrohd]

Yes legion the expansion with a new class and essentially an overhaul of every spec

We know
8 dungeons
4 zones
1 raid
13 delves
1 new race

That's it

Still, delves alone suggest we get more content than we got in DF

- - - Updated - - -

"Great content" I think you forgot you're talking about BFA. We don't need retroactive cope here.

I liked almost all of the content in BfA and did when it was current too. My issue was Azerite and certain elements of the story (not all, BfA also had some amazing storytelling like e.g. Jaina up until the end of the second raid when Anduin's presence somehow lobotomizes her) and to a lesser extent, Corruptions (on one hand, I loved the power fantasy on the other I felt they relied too heavily on procs when designing them).

That said, I feel TWW will have more content than DF by virtue of the delves alone.

[Vakir]

Regarding content density differences, it's important to remember the old addage of "Fast, Quality, Cheap. Pick 2."

BFA had a lot more but the cadence was bad. It also had a contentious theme, as the faction conflict tends to feel pretty unsatisfying, and add the syrup of bad systems and you get a poor reception even if the amount of content is better.

Dragonflight has a better cadence and a more sustainable model, it's just universally agreed the tone and theme are bland as hell. I think it's a more sustainable model overall provided they keep making improvements that carry between expansions rather than abandon them.

[Nymrohd]

Regarding content density differences, it's important to remember the old addage of "Fast, Quality, Cheap. Pick 2."

BFA had a lot more but the cadence was bad. It also had a contentious theme, as the faction conflict tends to feel pretty unsatisfying, and add the syrup of bad systems and you get a poor reception even if the amount of content is better.

Dragonflight has a better cadence and a more sustainable model, it's just universally agreed the tone and theme are bland as hell. I think it's a more sustainable model overall provided they keep making improvements that carry between expansions rather than abandon them.

I just cannot be convinced that the same amount of development hours went into DF compared to BfA.

[Murlocos]

I think BfA's launch offering is one of the more potent showcases of how poorly designed content fares little better than no content in the eyes of the community, but the WoD debacle has tilted the quantity vs. quality debate over content firmly in the side of quantity for a long time now. The game was being designed around avoiding WoD again long after its release, even if that eventually lead to total burnout with systems.

DF has prioritized content delivery above all else, and I believe it's time for us to shift to the quality side of content. They've focused on reducing friction with the game and that's continuing into TWW, now it's on them to show they can deliver engaging new content and systems rather than just demonstrating they can pump out loads of quests as they have been with DF. If Delves are nailed correctly on release, I think a strong new endgame pillar will be a huge benefit to keeping the game fresh.

[Vakir]

I just cannot be convinced that the same amount of development hours went into DF compared to BfA.

They absolutely didn't! DF feels like a scrambled model to try and salvage a one two punch of problem expansions to get content out faster while a big team is apparently stepping on the gas to release a 3 parter faster which, yes, is gonna nickel and dime players to buy more boxes on average per period of time.

It's a question of whether you wanna buy into that. I totally get why some don't. But I like this future a lot more than BFA and SL being the norm. Wanting more because I have less is better than actively feeling internal anger and rage at playing at all. I can take a break just like when I unsub from 14 or stop a playthrough on a longer single player game, but I'm not furious while I play like those two absolute turkeys.

It'd be great if every expansion was Legion or Cata levels of ambition, not so much quality in the latter case, but this just isn't the same company or the same industry with how AAA games have devolved.

[Nymrohd]

I think BfA's launch offering is one of the more potent showcases of how poorly designed content fares little better than no content in the eyes of the community, but the WoD debacle has tilted the quantity vs. quality debate over content firmly in the side of quantity for a long time now. The game was being designed around avoiding WoD again long after its release, even if that eventually lead to total burnout with systems.

DF has prioritized content delivery above all else, and I believe it's time for us to shift to the quality side of content. They've focused on reducing friction with the game and that's continuing into TWW, now it's on them to show they can deliver engaging new content and systems rather than just demonstrating they can pump out loads of quests as they have been with DF. If Delves are nailed correctly on release, I think a strong new endgame pillar will be a huge benefit to keeping the game fresh.

See, if you separate gameplay systems from content, I don't think BfA's lacked quality. It has some of the best questing zones ever, most of the raids were between good and great, the dungeons were almost all solid, the islands were so interesting as set pieces etc. But almost every system attached to the content was just bad; Azerite was a mess, the gameplay for IEs did not much the content (which very much lent itself to exploration instead of rushing), warfronts, the affixes in the first two seasons were so bad . . .

[Marlamin]

Is this thread hidden or something? Doesn't seem to show in forums anymore?

It was moved to the new category for The War Within, if it doesn't show up on e.g. frontpage you might have to update your filters to add the new forum.

[Nymrohd]

It'd be great if every expansion was Legion or Cata levels of ambition, not so much quality in the latter case, but this just isn't the same company or the same industry with how AAA games have devolved.

I still feel BfA is the most ambitious expansion. Warfronts and AI mobs for Islands (and the Arathi AI bg) are all innovations.
Delves will be interesting. I really wonder how Brann's behaviour will be managed and if he will be escort quest from hell or not.