1. #5801
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    I'm not sure about this. I mean, look at Zereth Mortis. Nothing about that screamed "death." It was filled to bursting with vegetation and robotic animals. Based on that, I wouldn't necessarily believe that any of the remaining Zereths are environmentally in sync with the cosmic power they represent.
    Nothing about Zereth Mortis was really about the aesthetics of death in the strictest sense - it was about the afterlife, in this case, the various afterlife realms that actually constitute the Shadowlands proper (and not just the four Covenant realms we primarily dealt with). Zereth Mortis was about fabricating the realms themselves and populating them with appropriate flora and fauna, which we saw in their protoform roles prior to being placed within a given realm. So if, for example, an orc needed a "happy hunting ground" type of afterlife realm, Zereth Mortis would fabricate it and stock it full of animals to hunt and so forth. That's what those giant glowing bronze/gold orbs are all over Zereth Mortis - protoform realms in the process of being created, which the giant machinery at the heart of the zone then "launches" into the In-Between to create a new afterlife where the Arbiter can send souls.

    Zereth Vitae would likely have a somewhat similar function, but would instead fabricate flora and fauna to actually fill the physical universe and its various planets as opposed to afterlife realms within the Shadowlands.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #5802
    Quote Originally Posted by Nebron View Post
    Ahhh, we're talking about the stuff that came from the Oracle, I guess it clicked now, thanks!
    It's more like an induction, right?
    Zereth Mortis was a part of something called Shadowlands. We know there are other "Zereths", thus we assume there might be counterparts to Shadowlands?
    Given that the purpose of Zereth Mortis was literally creating the Shadowlands, that's pretty much guaranteed. They're factories for building these realms, so having a Zereth but no realm would either mean the Zereth is derelict or we missed something.

  3. #5803
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    The Pantheons are made in their respective Zereth's, they are blessed with their gifts in there also, and they are shipped out into the Realms from said Zereth's. NOTHING is implied that they can just go in and out of said Zereth's as they please.
    Fairly certain that Odyn's lore book in Uldaman says that the Titans, who are not a Zereth-made Pantheon, were able to access Zereth Ordos.

  4. #5804
    So looks Ebyssian becomes the new aspect, to not much surprise

    the new Evoker spec has an ability called Black Aspect's favor and the icon is of a new dragon model we havn't seen before, and it has a nose ring

  5. #5805
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Mm, no. It was just that the makers granted their gifts to the Titans in Zereth Ordus. They did this with all of their progeny. https://www.wowhead.com/item=201722/...ate-volume-742

    "Third: Do not share knowledge of the First Ones.

    Mortals could not conceive of the wonders that the makers granted to the titans in Zereth Ordus. Thus, learning of the Progenitors would only confuse them.

    It is enough that mortals know the titans brought Order to the cosmos, and that they are owed deference."
    The Titans are born of World Souls, such as Argus. How did they get granted their gifts in Zereth Ordus... without GOING to Zereth Ordus?

  6. #5806
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Imma be honest, I'm happy he's the aspect. Dude's more worthy than the other 2 jerks, that's for sure. But like...I still hate they gave us the option just to not go with it in the end. Just feels like the players choices do not matter.
    While they both have problems Wrathion helped take down death wing fight the Sha and took down the last Old god and Seb saved there flight from exciton by keeping eggs and drakes in Outland where they could regrow.

    Ebon horn has literally never done any thing for either the planet or his flight you couldn’t get more unworthy then him, like even the gnome who cleansed wrathion of corruption as an egg is more worthy then ebon horn.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  7. #5807
    Dreadlord Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Imma be honest, I'm happy he's the aspect. Dude's more worthy than the other 2 jerks, that's for sure. But like...I still hate they gave us the option just to not go with it in the end. Just feels like the players choices do not matter.
    If you asked me before Dragonflight who I thought would be the best black Aspect, my answer would have been Ebonhorn. And it's quite likely that will come to fruition. It's just a shame that the entire story leading up to the moment is building up Emberthal instead of Ebonhorn himself. I would have preferred him getting an active role in the story that culminates with his ascension. If he becomes Aspect, it'll just be another surprise subversion moment substituting for actual dramatic catharsis.

    (Also, I think Sabellian or Iridikron would have been the most interesting choices from a narrative standpoint.)

  8. #5808
    Herald of the Titans Worldshaper's Avatar
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    I know retcons aren't ideal. But I genuinely hope they retcon the crap out of all that additional cosmic lore they invented for Shadowlands.

    Just hearing the word "Zereth" makes me nauseous.

  9. #5809
    Dreadlord Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    I know retcons aren't ideal. But I genuinely hope they retcon the crap out of all that additional cosmic lore they invented for Shadowlands.

    Just hearing the word "Zereth" makes me nauseous.
    I'm a fan of perpetual mystery in fiction. The fate of the Blue Wizards and Ent-wives in Lord of the Rings. The driving force for the return of Honored Matres in Dune. Akavir and the Dwemer in Elder Scrolls. The answer to all of these questions is always going to be less satisfying than the mystery itself, and the presence of these mysteries creates the illusion than the fictional setting is more expansive than it actually is.

  10. #5810
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    I don't think we should even think about the other Zereths for now. It should be a long while before a Zereth is visited upon. Also I am sympathetic to the "Well we're eventually gonna go to all the Zereths and its predictable". We don't want to use up other lore threads for future eras(Expansions) super quickly.
    Last edited by Aeluron Lightsong; 2023-05-12 at 06:36 PM.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  11. #5811
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I don't think we should even think about the other Zereths for now. It should be a long while before a Zereth is visited upon. Also I am sympathetic to the "Well we're eventually gonna go to all the Zereths and its predictable".
    I don’t think any one should ever think of Zereths ever again the writers should drop that crap completely.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  12. #5812
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I don’t think any one should ever think of Zereths ever again the writers should drop that crap completely.
    Seconding this.

  13. #5813
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I don’t think any one should ever think of Zereths ever again the writers should drop that crap completely.
    Zereths are perfectly fine, the other ones just don't need to be visited.

  14. #5814
    Dreadlord Berkilak's Avatar
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    Let's not get bogged down with relitigating the quality of Shadowlands lore, unless it's directly relevant to the future.

  15. #5815
    Not really speculation but I do wonder if Emberthal and Sarkareth's general aesthetics should've been switched. It would've made more sense if the "Neltharion Wannabe" looked really similar to him, and Emberthal being Ebyssian's right hand would have more of an impact of she didn't look like a black dragon IMO.

  16. #5816
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    I know retcons aren't ideal. But I genuinely hope they retcon the crap out of all that additional cosmic lore they invented for Shadowlands.

    Just hearing the word "Zereth" makes me nauseous.
    Bred from flesh-pools of lingering trite,
    Danuser's drivel did take flight
    And cast a dreadful blight:
    Zereth, Zereth, Zereth...
    Lingered o'er banks of fair Lethe,
    Which spanned the way of sare death.
    'twas Death which drew great guffaws
    From groans grown from scarce applause;
    Once-evident the precedent of once-forgotten laws,
    Such cheap turgid swill makes one take pause.
    Last edited by AOL Instant Messenger; 2023-05-13 at 04:59 AM.

  17. #5817
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    I'm a fan of perpetual mystery in fiction. The fate of the Blue Wizards and Ent-wives in Lord of the Rings. The driving force for the return of Honored Matres in Dune. Akavir and the Dwemer in Elder Scrolls. The answer to all of these questions is always going to be less satisfying than the mystery itself, and the presence of these mysteries creates the illusion than the fictional setting is more expansive than it actually is.
    In connection to the Dwemer, there is actually an answer to what happened to them,—I'll elaborate if you're unfamiliar, but I'll leave it spoilered in case you ever want to read C0DA or the like yourself,—but it's esoteric enough that it feels like a mystery in itself: what is alleged to have happened (at least in Kirkbride lore) is that the Dwemer soul-stacked in the subgradient (though it's unclear if all individuals involved consented or not) to form Anumidium, which served as the embodiment of their philosophy of refutation. Similarly, although this is far more dubious, some have asserted that Akavair is probably the Kalpa succeeding the one in which the Nirn we're familiar with exists (Akavir being a product of the events of C0DA), rather than another continent.

  18. #5818
    Herald of the Titans Worldshaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Zereths are perfectly fine, the other ones just don't need to be visited.
    Disagree on this one.

    - They spoil the magic. Suddenly, the Emerald Dream isn't just this cool and ultimate expression or nature and life. It now plays second fiddle to "Zereth Vitae", lol.
    - They become too formulaic for creation myth lore, given how there are supposedly six of them, and we know how at least one of them looks and operates. Future expansions will feel like an Excel sheet waiting to be filled.
    - Their names are arguably worse than the Norse stuff in WoW. Vitae? Lumen? I'm not sure if these sound more like the ideas of a 12 year old aspiring author who just read Harry Potter for the first time and decided to give writing a shot, or a new line of smart home products found on Amazon. Either way, it's too damn on the nose to use well known Latin words for location names.

  19. #5819
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    Their names are arguably worse than the Norse stuff in WoW. Vitae? Lumen? I'm not sure if these sound more like the ideas of a 12 year old aspiring author who just read Harry Potter for the first time and decided to give writing a shot, or a new line of smart home products found on Amazon. Either way, it's too damn on the nose to use well known Latin words for location names.
    Latin is a tongue
    Of beauty e'er profound.
    But beware of overuse,
    For such overuse abounds!
    "Seek obscurer phrases, please!"
    I'll say upon my knees,
    For variety is key
    To use it well, at least for me.

    And though to say such things
    May make me sound a geek,
    Would it do you such great harm
    To give a try to Greek?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    - They spoil the magic. Suddenly, the Emerald Dream isn't just this cool and ultimate expression or nature and life. It now plays second fiddle to "Zereth Vitae", lol.
    - They become too formulaic for creation myth lore, given how there are supposedly six of them, and we know how at least one of them looks and operates. Future expansions will feel like an Excel sheet waiting to be filled.
    It doesn't help that the Cosmic Forces are ill-defined in scope and yet simultaneously too narrow and limited in their prospects. There's not much done to distinguish them or give them any metaphysical weight; this is bad enough when they're reduced to categories of Pokémon, but it also much means that any expansions cognate to them them will invariably be a jaunt through throngs of deliberately one-dimensional morons whose entire personalities are limited to their respective one-note subsections of the Cosmic Force in question.

    As a further point of agreement, it's hardly riveting worldbuilding when everything is categorized so easily to begin with. It preempts much in the way of variety or unique exploration of the manifold facets of the universe when each of those facets are slotted comfortably into their respective Cosmic Forces.

  20. #5820
    Dreadlord Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    In connection to the Dwemer, there is actually an answer to what happened to them,—I'll elaborate if you're unfamiliar, but I'll leave it spoilered in case you ever want to read C0DA or the like yourself,—but it's esoteric enough that it feels like a mystery in itself: what is alleged to have happened (at least in Kirkbride lore) is that the Dwemer soul-stacked in the subgradient (though it's unclear if all individuals involved consented or not) to form Anumidium, which served as the embodiment of their philosophy of refutation. Similarly, although this is far more dubious, some have asserted that Akavair is probably the Kalpa succeeding the one in which the Nirn we're familiar with exists (Akavir being a product of the events of C0DA), rather than another continent.
    I'm familiar. The difference being that there are crumbs provided in Elder Scrolls for us to piece together what happened ourselves, and even then, there are still competing theories with varying degrees of legitimacy. There's a huge difference between that and simply picking up a quest and having the NPC spout the entire lore bible at you, not relevant to the current narrative. World building can be done as an exercise unto itself (Elden Ring and Dragonflight being great examples, in their own ways), but it cannot be relied upon to substitute for an actual narrative when delivering a narrative is the primary goal.
    Last edited by Berkilak; 2023-05-13 at 06:05 AM.

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