The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Ersula]

It wouldn’t be the first time they just disregarded lore when they didn’t like it/want to use it look at the TTRPG which was canon for a time and had tons of lore and theh just threw that all out.

But even if they don’t want to chuck it all in the bin they can just freely retcon stuff and make it so the first ones were always just the titans.

The "they" in that statement is nebulous. Arguably, the TTRPG was never canon. It was heavily based on existing lore but was created wholesale by people who didn't even work at Blizzard.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

When Metzen wants to disregard pieces of the lore, he would make it VERY known.

Medan came out in the 2008-9 comics, his feats weren't degraded from the lore until 2017-19 through chronicles vol 2 and a later interview.

So no he wouldn't make it very known.

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The "they" in that statement is nebulous. Arguably, the TTRPG was never canon. It was heavily based on existing lore but was created wholesale by people who didn't even work at Blizzard.

It's not really arguable blizzard them self's listed the TTRPG canon on there official site for a few years between 2007-11 where in then then made it none canon around mop.

quotes from the old now dead site.

"Want to know more about the lore of World of Warcraft? The game doesn't require any additional reading to play. However, you might enjoy gaining a more detailed knowledge of Warcraft lore. Here are some resources that are available: ...RPGs... Warcraft Role-Playing Games provide a wealth of information about Warcraft lore."

and there are abunch of other quotes.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/War...source_of_lore

[Ersula]

TLT is focused on the Titans and (likely) Iridikron's plot against them. It's also focused on their true intentions for Azeroth + Azeroth's true purpose. The First Ones not having a major role tl play in this expac makes sense, tho do possibly expect a mention or two of them, especially when discovering the Titans true intentions and whatnot.

Although the Eternal Ones talk about the First Ones like they've never met them, there's still the possibility a sub-faction of the Titans are the first ones: Aman'thul, the Primus, etc are considerably older than their compatriots. Maybe the first of each Pantheon are the "First Ones."

What do you mean?

They're all orderly in some way, even if their magics don't inherently scream it.

I was explaining that exact thing to someone who was claiming someone with Nature Magic couldn't come from Order, but clearly they can.

[Gigantique]

I apologise to anyone I might ruin Fyrakk for for pointing this out but I can't see him as anything but a fire version of Dr. Nefarius from Ratchet & Clank...

[Makabreska]

I apologise to anyone I might ruin Fyrakk for for pointing this out but I can't see him as anything but a fire version of Dr. Nefarius from Ratchet & Clank...

Fyrakk is officially ruined.

[Telogrus]

What do you mean?

Aman'Thul commands Time, which is a construct of Order.

Eonar is tasked with patroning Life and everything, which is an aspect of Order.

Aggramar is the avenger of Order, and the bringer of justice.

Sargeras was the defender of Order.

Khaz'goroth shapes worlds in the Titans orderly image. He also made a lot of the Titans orderly tech, etc.

Gol'ganneth controls the Seas and Skies, likely to order planets whose elemental or cosmic balance is "threatened" in some way.

And Norgannon is the keeper of Magics and Secrets, likely to balance out the magics across the physical universe, etc

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They're all orderly in some way, even if their magics don't inherently scream it.

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He is not. Unlike with SL, the Azeroth based expansions aren't really focused on the First Ones in any way, Danuser talked about this in explicit detail. As for the Cosmic War stuff as a whole? Well, ehhh? The First Ones don't have any real role to play in the Cosmic War so far. Zovaal was a bit of a unique case because he feared the 7th and wanted to remake everything straight up. He didn't hate one of the other forces or anything in that sense, but he wanted to break the Cosmos down to its very framework as a result of an outside thing.

How do you explain the recent stuff with Elune, Eonar, and Elun’ahir? Aman’thul was pissed at Eonar for planting Elun’ahir, and ripped it out like it was Y’Shaarj. Clearly planting that tree was not in Order’s best interest, so why would Eonar do it if she was truly a part of the Pantheon of Order?

[Worldshaper]

Oh. I just realised something, regarding the whole debate around The Last Titan, and whether the logotype is a Titan prison or not (it is).

There's a toy you get from a Valdrakken Accord quest, literally called Titan's Containment Device: Manifest a Titan prison at your location. Warning, uneducated utilization of this device could result in self-entrapment. Please, do not use without supervision.

Guess what it looks like? (Grabbed a random screenshot link I found online, but I tested it myself a minute ago in-game, and can confirm.)

[Nebron]

So what are we supposed to do, just ignore the Zereth's and the First Ones? You may not like them but they are part of the game now. We had a whole expansion about it.

What are the devs supposed to do? Just ignore that they exist? Retcon an entire expansion?

Honestly, yup. Just forget it happened, ignore this part of story, make it irrelevant. It certainly may not the best solution storytelling-wise, but definitely the best for players' and game's long-term interest. As long as they do not come up with a clever way to retcon this part of the lore and make it interesting, the best thing they could to would be to dump it straight into the trash can.

[hattahat]

We shouldn't forget what Scaleface said: Shadowlands, Dragonflight, Underworld, and the Midnight expansion were all planned before Shadowlands. Regardless of Metzen's return, all of the lores revealed in Shadowlands are valid and can only be fully incorporated into the story going forward. Let's face it.

[Worldshaper]

We shouldn't forget what Scaleface said: Shadowlands, Dragonflight, Underworld, and the Midnight expansion were all planned before Shadowlands. Regardless of Metzen's return, all of the lores revealed in Shadowlands are valid and can only be fully incorporated into the story going forward. Let's face it.

Sort of like all that super duper canonical lore in Chronicles, right? The true word of Green Jesus, valid until the end of time.

Seriously, any good storyteller can tell from a mile away that everything Shadowlands added to the "cosmic lore" of Warcraft is awful. It's just riddled with divine power creep. As if Keepers and Titans wasn't messy enough, now they tried to shove Eternals, First Ones, and Zereths down our throats.

All it takes is a few well-written quests to erase Shadowlands' cosmic lore. For example, maybe the Titans did offer their perspective in Chronicles. But ah, so did the Eternals in Shadowlands. In fact, the Light was the original force, clashing with the Void in the Twisting Nether. What then happened was that the organisation called the Brokers set out to manipulate and distort the truth, so as to diminish the role of the Light and elevate Life and Death instead. Death didn't have much of a mythos behind it, so like the medieval Britons invented the Arthurian legend, they too spun tales of their own. See, easy.

[Ersula]

I mean, simple, she has a huge respect for Elune and planted the tree there, not thinking it would cause any disorder to Azeroth or anything like that at the time. Aman'Thul, being the highfather of the Pantheon and everything, went against this and scolded Eonar for it, similar to how a big brother would scold their little sister for bringing bugs in the house or something along those lines.

There is a thematic parallel there & with the current storyline involving Tyr & the Aspects. The Keepers did unethical things but for the sake of protecting life. While Elune was deadset on there being worldtrees on Azeroth, even though having them is a huge existential threat to the planet, but if we didn't have them at all the Burning Legion would have won. The Keepers ultimately protected life. Elune ultimately protected Order.

[Revamp Man]

I stand by the theory that Titans all have a different main force and Order was forced onto them by their leader.
Every titan except for daddy time has some other theme from a different force

Titans are semi blank slates and the cosmic forces influence them to an insane degree

[Ersula]

The First Ones seem to be a separate entity from the Pantheons. As for them being "Aman'Thul", etc? No. Otherwise, the Death First One would be Zovaal, and the Primus wouldn't talk about them in the third person.

Unless they're intentionally keeping their identities as first ones secret. And they never say Zovaal was the first Eternal one, only that he was the one originally chosen to judge souls.

This theory is just one possibility. I believe the First Ones being the various Pantheons' bosses is the most likely theory. Hell, the monicker "First Ones" is probably just a tongue-in-cheek reference to Morhaime, Pardo, Adham & Pierce, the original creators of the franchise who are gone from Blizzard. I think it's even more likely that we'll never see them. In universe, the First Ones might not even exist anymore. The story seems to be more about what the individual cosmic forces did when they were acting autonomously. A progenator species trying to simply create a self-perpetuating universe is just a backdrop.

[Bsirk]

I apologise to anyone I might ruin Fyrakk for for pointing this out but I can't see him as anything but a fire version of Dr. Nefarius from Ratchet & Clank...

I actually see him as a fire Starscream from Transformers.

I see I agree with Cosmicpreds about this as well. lol

[Vakir]

Guess what it looks like? (Grabbed a random screenshot link I found online, but I tested it myself a minute ago in-game, and can confirm.)

I backed you with this, like, 30 pages ago.

(Also, imagine backing the Zereth and First Ones lore and taking it at face value. Almost nobody is going to eat this stuff up in 5-10 years considering how much of a joke it is now. It'll quietly die like Med'an.)

[Vakir]

Saying "nuh-uh, it's fine" will never be a compelling argument.

I mean, the Jailer SHOULD be the oldest Eternal One no? No reason for why he wouldn't be.

There's no reason he should unequivocally be, either, which takes precedence. You need to assert something, not deny a negative.

There's no indication of whether direct judgment of souls would come before having the method of transporting them or having some connection to the cycle of rebirth. If anything, I'd argue it would make more sense to have souls carried before there was a direct system of movement to where exactly they were "supposed" to be.

Considering they're all just 3D printed robots, it wouldn't surprise me if they were all made simultaneously anyway.

[Berkilak]

This thread is intolerable when it gets mired in relitigating terrible past lore.

[Vakir]

This thread is intolerable when it gets mired in relitigating terrible past lore.

Blame the two people left acknowledging this tripe.

[Ersula]

I mean, he rules over the Shadowlands at the precipice of Death, he is stated to be older than "our reality" (likely just meaning he's older than the Dark Beyond), he's stated to be older than the Titans by some accounts, and the Arbiter title seems to be the most crucial aspect in the song of creation at Zereth Mortis.

This chicken-or-egg hypothetical is why the First Ones exist in lore in the first place. From a practical position I would say you would need people to run the afterlives you want souls to go to before you start sending them there. We have no idea but to me it seemed like The Primus knew way more about the mortal plane than the other Eternal ones did.

[Vakir]

I mean, he rules over the Shadowlands at the precipice of Death, he is stated to be older than "our reality" (likely just meaning he's older than the Dark Beyond), he's stated to be older than the Titans by some accounts, and the Arbiter title seems to be the most crucial aspect in the song of creation at Zereth Mortis.

I direct to...

This chicken-or-egg hypothetical is why the First Ones exist in lore in the first place. From a practical position I would say you would need people to run the afterlives you want souls to go to before you start sending them there. We have no idea but to me it seemed like The Primus knew way more about the mortal plane than the other Eternal ones did.

Yeah, this.

You're hyping up the Jailer because you're a fanboy of his. The Arbiter's role was to sort people to the afterlife they're meant to go to, not to "rule." If they were the sole voice and entirely sovereign, you wouldn't have people pushing back and imprisoning him in the first place.

"Our reality" is meaningless considering ALL of the Shadowlands is older than our reality by the metric of how it was created in the first place.

It's an insane assumption on your part and you opened yourself up to it when you said "no reason why he shouldn't be." Here's several reasons why!

Let's just forget about that absolute shitshow, please. "Anduin did...things. Off-screen. Ysera is back and Malfurion is gone for...reasons. We won't get into the logistics of why."