The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Sondrelk]

It's never this nuanced.

It's easily that nuanced if you just take what is written literally, and don't immediately assume that the Old Gods were actually the good guys all along.

[Vakir]

Well, Thrall strongly indicates in the TWW cinematic that the aiming was not random.

Only if you operate on the premise that they're aware of the World Soul.

If they aren't, the implication becomes an internal reveal of Azeroth's presence. They don't seem to really know despite the last 3 expansions. The voice springs up right as the World Tree blooms and Amirdrassil is specifically stated to be a blessing from Azeroth and yet the world shaman and one of the brightest scholars of the Kirin Tor are confused.

[Woggmer]

Given that the heart chamber was in Silithus and Azeroth came moments from dying because of the stab there really doesn’t need to be any thing big going forward for his aim to have not been random.

Actually, that raises a new question that hasn't been answered. How did he know where the heart was? Sargeras wasn't involved with Azeroth's ordering... yet somehow he knows exactly where the weak point is.

[Makabreska]

Only if you operate on the premise that they're aware of the World Soul.

If they aren't, the implication becomes an internal reveal of Azeroth's presence. They don't seem to really know despite the last 3 expansions. The voice springs up right as the World Tree blooms and Amirdrassil is specifically stated to be a blessing from Azeroth and yet the world shaman and one of the brightest scholars of the Kirin Tor are confused.

How do they do not know about World Soul, when it was speaking to Magni entire BfA?

"Speaking to a world-soul is not like speaking to a mortal, which is why Azeroth needs Magni Bronzebeard as her Speaker.[5] Magni says that Azeroth does not speak to him in words but in feelings, like the feeling of a crumbling mountain range, a deep dark sea, or a sunrise."

"That sword was aiming at something" from the cinematic did not mean they didn't know what it was aiming at. Thrall was indicating that the stab was not random.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Actually, that raises a new question that hasn't been answered. How did he know where the heart was? Sargeras wasn't involved with Azeroth's ordering... yet somehow he knows exactly where the weak point is.

The titans are all about order so it’s likely every planet they ordered would be laid out in similar ways.

He would likely just have to glance where the other Titan facilities are and he would then know where it was likely to be.

[Raetary]

Chronicle 1 was obviously written from the PoV of an in-universe

No.
It wasn't.

It objectively wasn't.
The chronicles are entirely written and narrated from an extradiegetic perspective.

To the point that the book mentions the name of the franchise and game in the first few pages.

[Vakir]

"That sword was aiming at something" from the cinematic did not mean they didn't know what it was aiming at. Thrall was indicating that the stab was not random.

Yes, that's a very good question as to why they wouldn't know. A question that is kind of brushed right the hell over. Again, the Amirdrassil epilogue seems to indicate that Thrall is not aware of the concept because he remains confounded by a female voice coming from a vision of a radiant orb. Which Azeroth would be at least a top 3 candidate on a list of suspects.

I really think they're just trying to make it a big deal that Azeroth herself is calling to heroes and the planet soul is in danger despite the fact that we've been aware since Chronicle.

Sargeras was going to stab in further and was stopped. A sword that big would've killed the planet. It's what he does. Period.

[huth]

Actually, that raises a new question that hasn't been answered. How did he know where the heart was? Sargeras wasn't involved with Azeroth's ordering... yet somehow he knows exactly where the weak point is.

Because he had torn open another planet containing a world soul.

Something else to remember here: Even if he was trying to strike a specific spot, he was torn away in the middle of it. You go and try to hit a particular place when somebody yanks you away.

[Makabreska]

Also (assuming these calculations matter, of course) the stab was pretty shallow. So it would not make sense for Sarg (who was already pre-positioned before the yank) to stab it there, if there was nothing of worth under Silithius.

[Woggmer]

The titans are all about order so it’s likely every planet they ordered would be laid out in similar ways.

He would likely just have to glance where the other Titan facilities are and he would then know where it was likely to be.

That's one way of explaining it, but it doesn't seem right... I'd keep a pin on this for later on in either The War Within or the Last Titan, (I doubt they'll mention it in Midnight.)

[Vakir]

The scale is bupkis. The Legion finale, in game, and TWW intro swords are all different sizes with the Legion one easily being enough to completely penetrate it to its mid point.

Sargeras regularly cleaves planets, it's his MO.

Even if we go off BFA as something they're adhering to 100%, this idea that Sargeras was surgically precise in stabbing for something mysterious while - LOL - in the middle of trying to wreck us with a dark Pantheon while having a hateful enraged grimace is completely thrown out by one thing: Azeroth is already dying and critical condition from as far as he got, and he was stopped mid-stab. If he continues she'd be dying harder. There's absolutely no chance Azeroth would survive in some grand design of Sargeras' if he got much deeper - heh.

This is shades of "Sylvanas burned Teldrassil because it was corrupted," Jaina doing it as a false flag, the Jailer being a good guy all along, or any other number of convoluted twists for a story that has never respected its players.

Sargeras' entire ethos is destroying planets to avoid a Void Titan. He spared nothing to avoid this. He never left anything to chance. It was called the Burning Crusade, not the Burning Triage.

If this ONE time he didn't intend to completely kill the planet and spontaneously had some 7D chess plan this one time just as we ruined his other 15 apocalyptic intentions and then the planet almost died anyway...that's new achievements in stupid fucking writing.

Thrall and Anduin are dumbly unaware of the World Soul because either Metzen forgot or they're trying to prep an epic reveal we already know, damn the logic of it.

[Ersula]

Also (assuming these calculations matter, of course) the stab was pretty shallow. So it would not make sense for Sarg (who was already pre-positioned before the yank) to stab it there, if there was nothing of worth under Silithius.

Going back to the Xalatath story I referenced, that is where the Aqir temples were located, presumably buried by the sundering: And like in that story, Xalatath piecing an Aqir Obelisk releases a giant Old God Minion. Sargeras trying to wake up some old god minions doesn't make much sense but it makes more sense if he was trying to deal as much damage as possible...like releasing germs into the bloodstream.

[huth]

Also (assuming these calculations matter, of course) the stab was pretty shallow. So it would not make sense for Sarg (who was already pre-positioned before the yank) to stab it there, if there was nothing of worth under Silithius.

Remember the Heart of Azeroth storyline of the immediately following expansion?

Seems it was plenty deep enough to work if the planets immune system had been any weaker than it was.
Besides, he was kinda being pulled into the opposite direction when he tried to drive it in deeper.

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Going back to the Xalatath story I referenced, that is where the Aqir temples were located, presumably buried by the sundering: And like in that story, Xalatath piecing an Aqir Obelisk releases a giant Old God Minion. Sargeras trying to wake up some old god minions doesn't make much sense but it makes more sense if he was trying to deal as much damage as possible...like releasing germs into the bloodstream.

No, it was just a direct attack against Azeroth. Yes, he was aiming for something: The world soul, which happens to be inside the planet. He didn't need any specific place. Just to aim straight down.

[Nymrohd]

No.
It wasn't.

It objectively wasn't.
The chronicles are entirely written and narrated from an extradiegetic perspective.

To the point that the book mentions the name of the franchise and game in the first few pages.

The entire idea that they are written from a Titan's perspective is an inane excuse. Who exactly is recording all the details during times when the Pantheon is dead/imprisoned and their Titanforged are corrupt, detained or simply not there (Draenor).

The Elder Scrolls did the unreliable narrator but they invested so much effort to do this. The WoW devs just tried to do it after the fact

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The entire idea that they are written from a Titan's perspective is an inane excuse. Who exactly is recording all the details during times when the Pantheon is dead/imprisoned and their Titanforged are corrupt, detained or simply not there (Draenor).

Honestly if they were better writers it being from there perspective wouldn’t even be a problem they could just say it addresses stuff relevant to the Titans IE the great dark and the legion and then they could have still expanded beyond into things like the shadowlands without retconning any thing.

The problem is there utter disregard from the lore and instead of expanding on/past it they started retconning things at a whim.

And of course the idea that it was written by any one in universe it’s pants on head stupid when the book obviously isn’t and was advertised as such.

[Dracullus]

The problem is there utter disregard from the lore and instead of expanding on/past it they started retconning things at a whim.

Oh please, give us examples of these retcons.

They literally try to avoid any retcons post 2004, they even tried to explain ridiculous TBC plot in Illidan book. And I'm not defending anything here, avoiding retcons don't make a good story.

[Nymrohd]

And of course the idea that it was written by any one in universe it’s pants on head stupid when the book obviously isn’t and was advertised as such.

I mean this is the problem. They could have written it to be from someone's perspective. It could have been narrated by Algalon with notes different keepers and watchers. It was not. It was presented in a completely different way. I am not asking for them to make their own Monomyth (though given Zereth Mortis, someone there would like to try) but the Chronicles were clearly not written like that. But they don't have the balls to own to a retcon just a couple of years after they got people to give them a lot of money for a definite history of Warcraft. So they just "change the context" for past events.

[Ersula]

The entire idea that they are written from a Titan's perspective is an inane excuse. Who exactly is recording all the details during times when the Pantheon is dead/imprisoned and their Titanforged are corrupt, detained or simply not there (Draenor).

What do you mean? Everything in Chronicle 1 is the ancient past & that's what's in contention, when the majority of Titans & Keepers were very much alive. We have no reason to think Chronicle 2 & 3 are inaccurate.

No, it was just a direct attack against Azeroth. Yes, he was aiming for something: The world soul, which happens to be inside the planet. He didn't need any specific place. Just to aim straight down.

But Sargeras' sword wasn't anywhere near long enough to hit the core; that's what the diagram was showing. But Thrall's lines in TWW teaser suggest (to the audience) that there was a reason he aimed for Silithus. I think the reason I gave was a valid theory.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Oh please, give us examples of these retcons.

They literally try to avoid any retcons post 2004, they even tried to explain ridiculous TBC plot in Illidan book. And I'm not defending anything here, avoiding retcons don't make a good story.

Off the top of my head.

Wyrmrest temple was made by the dragon aspects as neutral ground to treat with the incarnate in the recent novel, in chronicles 1 it says the Titan made it as a gift to the dragons.

The universe a planned and made by the first ones instead of the byproduct of light and void clashing, Chronicles 1.

Dreadlords being tied to the realm of death not the twisting neither, chronicles 1.

Frostmourn/helm of domination was made by the primus instead of dread lords, chronicles 3.

Kel’thuzad was always working for the jailer not the lich king, chronicles 3.

Bolvar originally had trouble controlling the scourge because he saw necromancy as fundamentally against the light and his beliefs, which was later changed to be the jailer influencing him, chronicles 3.

The valkyir breaking away from Bolvar was changed to them always being under the jailer, chronicles 3.

Sylvanas was resurrected after jumping off icecrown because she saw that the forsaken would suffer without her, later changed to her not caring and doing jailer stuff instead, chronicles 3.

There are undoubtedly a ton I’m forgetting as I haven’t fully gone through the books in years let alone cross referenced it with the current expans.

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What do you mean? Everything in Chronicle 1 is the ancient past & that's what's in contention, when the majority of Titans & Keepers were very much alive. We have no reason to think Chronicle 2 & 3 are inaccurate.

Chronicles 1 covers stuff before the titans were born.

Chronicles 2 covers stuff no Titan or keepers were around to see like every thing on Dranoer post Grond.

And Chronicles 3 is fairly inaccurate on a lot of things around WC3/wrath because of them changing stuff to fit the SL.

1/2 don’t have any one to have written the book for such parts and the inaccuracies in 3 just don’t make any sense from an in universe observer.

[Dracullus]

Off the top of my head.

Wyrmrest temple was made by the dragon aspects as neutral ground to treat with the incarnate in the recent novel, in chronicles 1 it says the Titan made it as a gift to the dragons.

The universe a planned and made by the first ones instead of the byproduct of light and void clashing, Chronicles 1.

Dreadlords being tied to the realm of death not the twisting neither, chronicles 1.

Frostmourn/helm of domination was made by the primus instead of dread lords, chronicles 3.

Kel’thuzad was always working for the jailer not the lich king, chronicles 3.

Bolvar originally had trouble controlling the scourge because he saw necromancy as fundamentally against the light and his beliefs, which was later changed to be the jailer influencing him, chronicles 3.

The valkyir breaking away from Bolvar was changed to them always being under the jailer, chronicles 3.

Sylvanas was resurrected after jumping off icecrown because she saw that the forsaken would suffer without her, later changed to her not caring and doing jailer stuff instead, chronicles 3.

There are undoubtedly a ton I’m forgetting as I haven’t fully gone through the books in years let alone cross referenced it with the current expans.

Retcon is changing past events or locations we experienced during story. Revealing hidden motives or lies are not retcon, they are simply just story twists without good setup.

We still believed Frostmourne was made by dreadlords before SL and during SL we learned it was false information. Not really good writing, but no retcon.

Imagine what happens if we expand definition of retcon to changing anything other character said about some past event - and of course assume retcon is forbidden thing. There can't be no secrecy, no character can lie, anything someone say about other character must be true, cause otherwise RETCON.

Of course SL was really bad attempt of this, but it doesn't mean it's always bad thing by default. Of course it's best when we have hints proving author had it in mind, but skilled writer is able to use existing facts/events to create believable twist.

(Won't comment on origin of world 'retcon', cause we really know jack shit about that, all we know could be both made by Void/Light clash, but still with First Ones supervision.)