The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Ersula]

I just don't buy the Scarlet Crusade as a major threat. I don't even understand how they still exist.

It all boils down to land. Who wants to bet Gallywix already sold the building/resource rights before he got kicked out of the Horde?

[Nymrohd]

The hell are you talking about? History is full of groups like this. It starts with a few extremists, then more and more of the levelheaded people leave until only extremists remain. They generally never recover.

The Scarlet Crusade was completely different in the comic before Balnazzar corrupted them. Multiple members have seen the issues with the organization since then and left. The idea that absent demonic influence they could resume contact with the Argent Dawn is not at all weird.

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Entirely agreed, that's my point. It'd make far more narrative sense to not restore Nordrassil and not bring back Cenarius, which both undermine the ending of WC3 to zero return since both end up being neutral props instead of enjoyed exclusively by the night elves they're made for anyway and instead stagger it out so that if you do this new tree story, it and its corresponding zone overlap with Hyjal and signify a return and restoration to that WC3 state. At present, Nordrassil is already downplayed and unfit for purpose and the new tree and zone redundant.

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They were introduced into the game as antagonists, primarily for the Forsaken. Their on-screen membership consisted exclusively of Lordaeron humans, with all other elements being backgrond information on plaques, who wanted to reclaim their land and kill the undead, which was also the only group to have an actual stake in their goal, compared to the nonsensical multiracial hodgepodge of the Argents. The Lordaeronian cause is human, be that human living or dead, every other race has no investment or reason to be involved in it and only serves to water it down with the transparent illogic of a night elf or orc being not only incredibly invested in restoring a kingdom and culture they've zero association with, but to do so while dressing up as a human paladin archetype.

The lore of Warcraft extends beyond the game though. High elves, half-elves and dwarves were all welcomed by the Scarlet Crusade before Balnazzar took over. The version of the Crusade we face in WoW is after their fall.
Building a redemption arc using Mariella Ward is entirely possible.

[huth]

The Scarlet Crusade was completely different in the comic before Balnazzar corrupted them. Multiple members have seen the issues with the organization since then and left. The idea that absent demonic influence they could resume contact with the Argent Dawn is not at all weird.

Except all of those who might want that have left already. The ones who are still members are those that agreed with Balnazzar's leadership.

[Super Dickmann]

The lore of Warcraft extends beyond the game though. High elves, half-elves and dwarves were all welcomed by the Scarlet Crusade before Balnazzar took over. The version of the Crusade we face in WoW is after their fall.

The version that exists in the game and has informed every portrayal is the only relevant one. Setting aside that high elves and dwarves deeply invested in a religious crusade to restore a human kingdom was already dubious from the get go, if far less so than anything about the Argent Dawn and especially the Argent Crusade, by the time the Crusade are an active component and encountered by the player they are exclusively human and exclusively directed towards Lordaeronian restoration as an existential antagonist to the Forsaken.

[Nymrohd]

The version that exists in the game and has informed every portrayal is the only relevant one. Setting aside that high elves and dwarves deeply invested in a religious crusade to restore a human kingdom was already dubious from the get go, if far less so than anything about the Argent Dawn and especially the Argent Crusade, by the time the Crusade are an active component and encountered by the player they are exclusively human and exclusively directed towards Lordaeronian restoration as an existential antagonist to the Forsaken.

Lordaeron was indeed primarily a human kingdom but there were elves and dwarves that lived their entire lives in it; they had their homes and businesses in Stratholme and Capital City and probably served in Lordaeron's armies.

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Except all of those who might want that have left already. The ones who are still members are those that agreed with Balnazzar's leadership.

Do we have any evidence they ever learned of that? They probably consider it propaganda by the Argent Dawn against them.

[Vakir]

I frankly never saw the Scarlets as anything more than a third-string filler villain even before their Mists goofiness and their propaganda pamphlets.

Old-Sylvanas loyalists would feel like a better pick but I don't think anything would hold up as a satisfying "effigy" of avenging the loss in the first place.

[Nymrohd]

I frankly never saw the Scarlets as anything more than a third-string filler villain even before their Mists goofiness and their propaganda pamphlets.

Old-Sylvanas loyalists would feel like a better pick but I don't think anything would hold up as a satisfying "effigy" of avenging the loss in the first place.

Still better than using the Scarlet Crusade as antagonists. By using the Crusade, you are making Gilneas Reclamation more of a Forsaken story than a worgen story.

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https://www.wowhead.com/news/new-ani...-10-2-5-336240

OK I expected Primordial wave to look like . . . a wave? Not like discount Elemental Blast? And Shifting Power needs work, the original one gives you a much better idea of the range it hits.

[Vakir]

Oh, I'm in agreement. It's just unfortunate how long since the ship has sailed.

[Super Dickmann]

Lordaeron was indeed primarily a human kingdom but there were elves and dwarves that lived their entire lives in it; they had their homes and businesses in Stratholme and Capital City and probably served in Lordaeron's armies.

It's not presented this way in the RTS, let alone in the game. The priests, the first high elves you get, are envoys from Quel'thalas, the sorceresses from Dalaran. The dwarves are allies and later in TFT, they're presented as being sent by Khaz Modan as envoys of the kingdom to achieve such aims. Could Lordaeron have such minority populations? Possibly, but it's only inference and in any case they'd be a distinct minority before a primarily human and a human (in the most general sense) clash between its two successor states, the Scarlets and the Forsaken. The odd man out are the Argent Crusade which are demographic nonsense by dint of their role in the plot, which is to allow non-human paladins to engage with a human paladin plot.

To note, I entirely agree with you that they aren't fit for purposes in this story, the enemy should be Forsaken in an Alliance-only questline and if there's Horde involvement it'd be Belmont et al secretly supporting what would be written off publicly as deadenders.

[Nymrohd]

To note, I entirely agree with you that they aren't fit for purposes in this story, the enemy should be Forsaken in an Alliance-only questline and if there's Horde involvement it'd be Belmont et al secretly supporting what would be written off publicly as deadenders.

I'd be OK with the Horde being able to interact with the questline by helping hunt down Sylvanas loyalists if we had gotten such a plot. Or maybe getting something more unique like introducing Hagatha in Warcraft (together with Baku and the Shudderwock) or having something else come out of the Blackwood (Drust would fit like a glove) or even having the Blackhowl show up.
But having the Scarlet Crusade be the antagonist makes the questline as much a Forsaken quest as an Alliance quest.

[Ersula]

Lordaeron was indeed primarily a human kingdom but there were elves and dwarves that lived their entire lives in it; they had their homes and businesses in Stratholme and Capital City and probably served in Lordaeron's armies.

Yes, and the Monestary has dwarf & high elf statues in it, but just because they like very specific races doesn't mean they aren't racist or supposedly villains. The devs built Scarlet Monestary as a place both factions would be ransacking afterall. If I'm not mistaken, the whole "Infiltrated by a dreadlord" wasn't a thing during vanilla: It was something the devs came up with later.

[huth]

Do we have any evidence they ever learned of that? They probably consider it propaganda by the Argent Dawn against them.

Or they'll rationalise it as him only having taken over very shortly before his "death". People will go to very great lenths to uphold their world view.

And it's not like some random adventurers could possibly threaten the Grandmaster. Clearly, such a feat could only be pulled of by a cunning Dreadlord who the adventurers then killed while he was weakened from his grand battle.

[Super Dickmann]

I'd be OK with the Horde being able to interact with the questline by helping hunt down Sylvanas loyalists if we had gotten such a plot. Or maybe getting something more unique like introducing Hagatha in Warcraft or having something else come out of the Blackwood (Drust would fit like a glove) or even having the Blackhowl show up.
But having the Scarlet Crusade be the antagonist makes the questline as much a Forsaken quest as an Alliance quest.

I prefer the live version of the questline to any questline where Forsaken go after Sylvanas Loyalists. There is no viable quest where Forsaken killing other Forsaken for maintaining the gains of conquest are good. The Forsaken took Gilneas, any quest where they kill their own to hand it back is all the worst parts of BFA rolled into one. A handwave after they've already lost it to the Scarlets is ok, just dull.

[Ersula]

I prefer the live version of the questline to any questline where Forsaken go after Sylvanas Loyalists. There is no viable quest where Forsaken killing other Forsaken for maintaining the gains of conquest are good. The Forsaken took Gilneas, any quest where they kill their own to hand it back is all the worst parts of BFA rolled into one. A handwave after they've already lost it to the Scarlets is ok, just dull.

I prefer this as well. It's clear lilian & calia want to make amends with the alliance. It's the same situation with the tree where some fans feel that specific forsaken characters aren't allowed to do that or want that.

Like when DnD said they were going to stop utilizing races that were objectively evil and that still gets a lot of pushback. But it's pretty indicative of a bad world view if you need one side of a conflict to be cartoonishly evil. Seems like people want an entire culture to be objectively evil because they don't want to think about narrative or moral implications, but that they as an audience want to be treated to feats of extreme violence with a clear conscience. I'm sure something will start the faction war again in the future but until then they're portraying a time of peace pretty well.

[Nymrohd]

I prefer the live version of the questline to any questline where Forsaken go after Sylvanas Loyalists. There is no viable quest where Forsaken killing other Forsaken for maintaining the gains of conquest are good. The Forsaken took Gilneas, any quest where they kill their own to hand it back is all the worst parts of BFA rolled into one. A handwave after they've already lost it to the Scarlets is ok, just dull.

I mean it has no live version yet. And Forsaken have been killing other undead since forever. Sylvanas loyalists are very likely a threat to the Council.

[Ersula]

I mean it has no live version yet. And Forsaken have been killing other undead since forever. Sylvanas loyalists are very likely a threat to the Council.

By the end of the Heritage armor quest, Sylvanas made her intentions clear to her loyalists. Not to mention the council as a whole are all on different points of the Sylvanas lover-hater spectrum.

[Super Dickmann]

I mean it has no live version yet. And Forsaken have been killing other undead since forever. Sylvanas loyalists are very likely a threat to the Council.

You know which version I mean. Sylvanas loyalists are the Forsaken identity, the Council are a barnacle over it and the successes of both the SL Forsaken epilogue and the heritage questlines are where they've made the friction between the primary Forsaken identity and the writers' Unifaction paradigm that informs all writing as unintrusive as possible. Having a Forsaken-focused questline center around killing Forsaken for defending a holding that you yourself as the player helped seize wastes all of that effort.

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Like when DnD said they were going to stop utilizing races that were objectively evil and that still gets a lot of pushback. But it's pretty indicative of a bad world view if you need one side of a conflict to be cartoonishly evil. Seems like people want an entire culture to be objectively evil because they don't want to think about narrative or moral implications, but that they as an audience want to be treated to feats of extreme violence with a clear conscience. I'm sure something will start the faction war again in the future but until then they're portraying a time of peace pretty well.

There's an overcaution to DF's writing in general, even when it's good, as the orcish questline is for example. The writing isn't actively hostile to its foundations in the way BFA is, in favor of sanding off the edges instead and trying to please everyone. The practical result is that it has never been as bad as SL or BFA, but it's also been limp more often than not because friction and conflict are intrinsic to the franchise. The choice to have it be Scarlets is evocative of this. Were the Gilneas reclamation in BFA Lilian or Sadfang would be giving quests to kill Sylvanas loyalists while slipping a line about how Calia is here to heal the people of Lordaeron, but because it's in DF, Calia is instead an additional element to what is looking to be a bland and inoffensive questline that nevertheless fails to satisfy worgen fans, who rightly want a quest where they fight the guys who took Gilneas from them in the first place.

[Nymrohd]

I don't see why it has to be Alliance-only, just entirely Worgen themed. The Forsaken questline at the end of SL did let you play it as Alliance but it was still Forsaken themed in its entirety; you interacted with Forsaken NPCs and every theme had to do with the Forsaken story. It could be that the Horde player will just be tagging along and every friendly NPC in the questline will be a Worgen or Worgen-aligned but it is still disappointing that the enemy will be the Scarlet Crusade with which the Worgen have no real history and which is primarily a Forsaken antagonist. There were many options for what to use. Heck it could have simply been some form of Scourge that moved there during the Shadowland storyline. I am sure we can come up with so many ideas that would be closer to the Worgen theme and not primarily Horde-themed.

I assume they are building a greater Scarlet Crusade plot. Maybe it will somehow link to Hallowfall.

[Skildar]

Honestly healing Lordaeron at the end of Shadowlands was a mistake, it gave the horde the green card to go crazy anytime they want when the whole questchain about removing the plague could and should have been used for Gilneas which would have been a greater meaningful pardon. The roles would have been reversed compared to Cataclysm and Forsaken could have develop a whole new objective and prospect, moving the story forward.

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I assume they are building a greater Scarlet Crusade plot. Maybe it will somehow link to Hallowfall.

Chances are they were toying with ideas of what human kingdom or group we could find hiding all along under our feet and considered the scarlet crusade for a time before changing it to Arathi and are now just usnig whatever material they came up with concerning the scarlet crusade for small questchains

[Scyth]

OK I expected Primordial wave to look like . . . a wave? Not like discount Elemental Blast? And Shifting Power needs work, the original one gives you a much better idea of the range it hits.

Idk why but this is exactly what I expected it to look like lol Shifting Power definitely nees to look wider though.