The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Super Dickmann]

Then all that was thrown out because a dying Night Elf talked back at her. BfA Sylvanas was liked by no one except the players that wanted "WAR!" for war's sake, a simplicistic black and white story.

No, BFA Sylvanas and the BFA Horde route was liked exclusively by people who wanted her axed, the Horde in general and the Forsaken in particular turned into domesticated dross with no role in future stories. There's a reason Steve said that both Saurfang and Sylvanas were the 'past' of the Horde in an interview very early into the expansion, because the purpose of the expansion was to effectively end the factions and through them group conflict and difference between the races, coincidentally done by gutting both the only left-over prominent orc character and the character who missed the knife in Mists years back.

It's easy to forget this now, but back when BFA was going through its course many people were clapping in glee at the thought of neutral cosmic plots and that the world and factions were old hat. Cosmic plots ran their course in SL, the viability of fully neutral sedate content but in a standard fantasy setting bored people in DF, it's up to TWW to disabuse the final notion that you can have an engaging Warcraft plot without group conflict.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Don't know if you all saw it, but apparently Steve Danuser has indeed left Blizzard, all the way back to November last year. Just saw a spanish wow website report on it.
I guess that makes sense with how Metzen has been very clearly in charge of the narrative direction of the game. And personaly, even though I tend to not be so negative as most, I do think there were glaring narrative missteps in the past few expansions under his watch. So I wish him the best of luck. And hope for a return to form for wow under Metzen's leadership.

I'll go ahead and just repeat my opinion from another thread:

I'm reluctant to celebrate someone being out of a job for any reason, but I can say this will probably have a positive effect on the story to some extent. Of course, the others are still very much there, and to pin everything on Danuser alone — not to say I don't think he was a very poor writer and the source of many of the narrative's problems — would be scapegoating. I cautiously anticipate improvements.

[Varodoc]

Gaslighting is a very real thing. The Jailer fed her half-truths and lies, and by the time she started to realize she was only being used, she felt she was too far in to stop now. It took a breaking point (the Jailer torturing Bolvar, Jaina and Thrall instead of just going to Zereth Mortis) for her to truly reject this path.

That still betrays the character from WC3.

In WC3, when Varimathras gave Sylvanas half-truths and lies ("Join us and rule the Plaguelands with us", aka "Serve us or die"), Sylvanas immediately calls out Varimathras on his bullshit and reaffirms her free will, independence, and autonomy above all else. Even knowing that Varimathras and his forces vastly outnumbers her, she refuses to binds herself to someone else's cause again.




WC3 Sylvanas would have told the Jailer to fuck off and go bother someone else, like she told Varimathras (who himself was a Nathrezim, the smartest and best manipulators in the Universe).

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Also odd how you call everything about SL stupid when it gave us some of the coolest concepts in the lore imo lol

I dread asking this, but which concepts?

[Varodoc]

Also odd how you call everything about SL stupid when it gave us some of the coolest concepts in the lore imo lol

You are clearly not posting in good faith.

I said that Denathrius was one of the best villains we've had in modern WoW.

I said that the Forge of Souls being used to drain the World Soul was a good twist.

I didn't call "everything" about Shadowlands stupid.

[Nathanyel]

No matter how you try to spin. They are not the same character. Legion Sylvanas was stunned, confused, and at a loss for words, for a long time (Lor'themar and co. had time to remove Vol'jin's body and give him a proper burial before Sylvanas finally did anything). That is not the reaction of someone who had planned from the start with Death entities to manipulate Vol'jin into naming herself Warchief.

First, we agree that the setup was sloppy, but even given the later context, Sylvanas could simply have not been in the known that the Jailer through Mueh'zala had tricked Vol'jin into declaring her his successor. Zovaal didn't seem to tell his underlings more than absolutely necessary (which makes sense, as more context would often undermine his deceptions)

With the idea that the Dreadlords were always agents of Death serving the Jailer (who was apparently the creator of the Lich King), it does not make sense that the Dreadlords in WC3:TFT attempt to kill Arthas, who was an agent of the Maw, wearing Maw-forged artefacts, in the mortal world.

Lich King Ner'zhul had already defied/failed the Legion, and by implication Zovaal, and merging with Arthas made the entity even stronger and more resistant to the Jailer's influence via the helm and sword.
The Lich King was intended to be an agent of the Maw, but defied that fate (for the most part) in each incarnation, that's the reason the Dreadlords wanted to destroy him.

That still betrays the character from WC3.

In WC3, when Varimathras gave Sylvanas half-truths and lies ("Join us and rule the Plaguelands with us", aka "Serve us or die"), Sylvanas immediately calls out Varimathras on his bullshit and reaffirms her free will, independence, and autonomy above all else. Even knowing that Varimathras and his forces vastly outnumbers her, she refuses to binds herself to someone else's cause again.

WC3 Sylvanas would have told the Jailer to fuck off and go bother someone else, like she told Varimathras (who himself was a Nathrezim, the smartest and best manipulators in the Universe).

Varimathras first tried the generic approach that works on most mortals, realized it didn't work on her and switched to a more subtle way to influence her.

And WC3 Sylvanas was fueled by vengeance against Arthas, after he was defeated, she felt like being without purpose and committed suicide. The val'kyr likely diverted her soul directly to the Maw, convincing her that this was the fate of all living beings, or at least all Forsaken. From there on, she was slowly fed more lies and half-truths to get her to join the Jailer's side.

[Varodoc]

First, we agree that the setup was sloppy, but even given the later context, Sylvanas could simply have not been in the known that the Jailer through Mueh'zala had tricked Vol'jin into declaring her his successor. Zovaal didn't seem to tell his underlings more than absolutely necessary (which makes sense, as more context would often undermine his deceptions)

No, that is not how the original storyline was written.

The original storyline was about Sylvanas "stepping out of the shadows" to lead the Horde, and redeem her name in the eyes of the Horde and Azeroth. It was supposed to be a genuine storyline, with no double motives. That is also why you had Sylvanas privately show a brief expression of respect/mourn when Varian died.

Anything involving the Jailer, Mueh'zala, turbo hell, and all the rest, was another unnecessary retcon from Danuser.

And while you can also blame Afrasiabi for rehashing MOP to get his revenge on Kosak, two wrongs don't make a right. Legion Sylvanas and SL Sylvanas are not the same character.

Lich King Ner'zhul had already defied/failed the Legion, and by implication Zovaal, and merging with Arthas made the entity even stronger and more resistant to the Jailer's influence via the helm and sword.
The Lich King was intended to be an agent of the Maw, but defied that fate (for the most part) in each incarnation, that's the reason the Dreadlords wanted to destroy him.

By virtue of being an agent of the Maw who was actively spreading the influence of the Maw by existing and sending souls to the Jailer by killing people, Arthas was infinitely more useful to the Dreadlords than the Legion, which was wiped out at Mount Hyjal.

Therefore, it does not make sense for the Dreadlords to try to kill Arthas and remain supportive of the vanquished Legion.

Why is it a problem if the Lich King went rogue? He is still spreading the influence of the Maw and sending souls to the Jailer. He is still indirectly serving the Jailer.

How is it more beneficial to discard the Lich King for the Legion, which is not even an ally of Death (see their clashes with the Maldraxxi)?

Varimathras first tried the generic approach that works on most mortals, realized it didn't work on her and switched to a more subtle way to influence her.

And WC3 Sylvanas was fueled by vengeance against Arthas, after he was defeated, she felt like being without purpose and committed suicide. The val'kyr likely diverted her soul directly to the Maw, convincing her that this was the fate of all living beings, or at least all Forsaken. From there on, she was slowly fed more lies and half-truths to get her to join the Jailer's side.

A betrayal of the original character.

Sylvanas was a simple character, all she wanted was revenge on the Lich King and then to avoid death by using the Forsaken as meatshield (the Legion storyline was then supposed to be a redemption plot where she would show that she cared about her people as more than just tools to be discarded; that was the original premise on the Legion website).

The idea that Sylvanas was some idealist who wanted to free everyone and remake reality is a Danuser invention. That is not how Sylvanas was originally written.

[Varodoc]

You said those were the ONLY good things, which is also arguing in bad faith.

NO it is not "arguing in bad faith", it's stating My opinion. Am I not allowed to have the opinion that Shadowlands lore is garbage and Danuser doesn't belong anywhere near a writers' room?

Because Blizzard seems to share My opinion, by the way.

Another bad faith argument is you talking about how SL changed the old lore and whatnot only to praise the whole Forge of Souls stuff with the Jailer fight, even tho that's not what the Forge of Souls was originally intended for...

I didn't say that the Forge of Souls was "originally intended" for that purpose, I specifically said that it was REPURPOSED by the Jailer at the end. That is a TWIST, not a retcon. Like how N'Zoth and Azshara repurposed the HoA at the end to break the Last Prison.

[Raetary]

I said that the Forge of Souls being used to drain the World Soul was a good twist.

I'd argue that the twist about the forge was garbage too.

The only reason why it was received relatively well was because it was a thing we were mildly familiar with.
But the twist itself came out of bloody nowhere, no setup, no hints, no context, no nothing, it was just as random as most things SL tried to throw at us.

[Lady Atia]

So I just realised the "Camp" screen of War Within allows 5 characters, not 4.

I wonder if this suggests those 5 might be able to get additional benefits in the expansion, like being used in the AI dungeons etc.

Wasn't the camp screen actually 4 characters? Or did they post a new one somewhere?

[Murlocos]

No, BFA Sylvanas and the BFA Horde route was liked exclusively by people who wanted her axed, the Horde in general and the Forsaken in particular turned into domesticated dross with no role in future stories. There's a reason Steve said that both Saurfang and Sylvanas were the 'past' of the Horde in an interview very early into the expansion, because the purpose of the expansion was to effectively end the factions and through them group conflict and difference between the races, coincidentally done by gutting both the only left-over prominent orc character and the character who missed the knife in Mists years back.

It's easy to forget this now, but back when BFA was going through its course many people were clapping in glee at the thought of neutral cosmic plots and that the world and factions were old hat. Cosmic plots ran their course in SL, the viability of fully neutral sedate content but in a standard fantasy setting bored people in DF, it's up to TWW to disabuse the final notion that you can have an engaging Warcraft plot without group conflict.

Unfortunately, my doomer take regarding the factions is that gameplay overrides everything in their design philosophy, and their content creation pipeline would be a lot easier if the factions didn't exist. Not just them conflating the desire to do endgame content with the other faction as a desire to delete the factions in the story, but that any developer raising their hand now and going "Hey, what if we do faction-exclusive content that's scoped beyond a couple quests in this patch?" probably gets shut down very fast when the goal is to pump out content as fast as possible.

That's how I presume something like neutral Earthen came about: just make something for everyone, and (probably) ignore the fact that the "Horde dwarves, woo" was met with total silence at Blizzcon. Can't wait to play my orc warrior with a hero spec that was intended for a dwarf in TWW where I hang out with more humans and dwarves, and then go to Midnight which is about elves. At least Thrall will be there to perform the traditional Horde duty of servicing Anduin's character arc.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

No, stuff were mediocre with Danuser. Now we can go back to "epic, but stupid", as your screenshot kinda proves.

Nan stuff was awful with Danuser “epic but stupid” is mediocre writing but fun epic but smart would be what we’d get if things were good like parts of mop.

[Lady Atia]

Unfortunately, my doomer take regarding the factions is that gameplay overrides everything in their design philosophy, and their content creation pipeline would be a lot easier if the factions didn't exist. Not just them conflating the desire to do endgame content with the other faction as a desire to delete the factions in the story, but that any developer raising their hand now and going "Hey, what if we do faction-exclusive content that's scoped beyond a couple quests in this patch?" probably gets shut down very fast when the goal is to pump out content as fast as possible.

That's how I presume something like neutral Earthen came about: just make something for everyone, and (probably) ignore the fact that the "Horde dwarves, woo" was met with total silence at Blizzcon. Can't wait to play my orc warrior with a hero spec that was intended for a dwarf in TWW where I hang out with more humans and dwarves, and then go to Midnight which is about elves. At least Thrall will be there to perform the traditional Horde duty of servicing Anduin's character arc.

Well, they already said they wanted to expand f.e. the Mountain Thane lore/looks to make it also a good fit for anything but dwarfes. Your warrior will be fine, after all they were Odyn's champion during Legion, so the thunder/lightning theme can also just represent that.

[huth]

So I just realised the "Camp" screen of War Within allows 5 characters, not 4.

I wonder if this suggests those 5 might be able to get additional benefits in the expansion, like being used in the AI dungeons etc.

More likely to be a purely artistic decision. Warbands explicitly consist of all of your characters, not just the ones shown.

[meroes]

Not to sound rude here, but this feels like an obsession...

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You act like Sylvanas didn't deny the Jailer initially...

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Also odd how you call everything about SL stupid when it gave us some of the coolest concepts in the lore imo lol

Obsession, no. Just someone who played most Warcraft and liked the characters. You are obviously a late comer to Warcraft. Their complaints are totally valid and only echo discontinuities which you probably don’t see. Warcraft 3 Sylvanas being the least likely character to do the BFA stuff and SL stuff is not some sneaky betrayal she was always somehow capable of. It’s literally a different character. Possibly Danuser was given an impossible task, center Sylv, justify BFA, develop new lore, tight deadline. But that’s Blizz’s fault.

[Jolly Roger]

"Danuser not being at blizzcon means nothing he's still at blizzard"
He left in November

"Blizzard is gonna be ruined by Microsoft"
Stories coming out of incompetent management and employees before the merger

I can't wait to hear about how the layoffs took down a secret cock-fighting ring because Holy shit.

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Not to sound rude here, but this feels like an obsession...

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You act like Sylvanas didn't deny the Jailer initially...

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Also odd how you call everything about SL stupid when it gave us some of the coolest concepts in the lore imo lol

Sylvanas going from "my fate is my own" to "I refuse to serve....yeah I've been serving for the last 8 years in game but I SHALL NEVER SERVE!!" was retarded

Shadowlands introduced split afterlives and a multiverse along with the idea that every soul merges with it's copies which while interesting was poorly executed.

The covenants were also something that was a letdown in terms of actual storytelling because they couldn't decide how important the leaders actually were or how powerful they were

[Murlocos]

Well, they already said they wanted to expand f.e. the Mountain Thane lore/looks to make it also a good fit for anything but dwarfes. Your warrior will be fine, after all they were Odyn's champion during Legion, so the thunder/lightning theme can also just represent that.

I don't think they said they'd expand the lore or anything, they just said they're open to feedback on what feels good vs. what feels frustrating. This is the issue I brought up earlier in that some of the hero specs just feel like generic subspecs (which is fine) and others are very specific racial classes. I'd rather the gameplay side of things entirely be generic subspecs and we'd get class skins that can be tailor made for the right races instead of trying to water down every fantasy to fit every race/class combo.

I know, but it's interesting nonetheless. Especially for alcoholics who want to be able to showcase their most important chars properly.

I hope they realize sooner than later that some players would dedicate a huge chunk of their playtime just to make their character select screen look as nice as possible. I want to see lots of background options be available and allow us to customize each character's pose.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Can confirm, his Linkedin has the same info.

Danuser really is gone.

*plays Victory Celebration from the Star Wars IV soundtrack*

good riddance, the guy wasn't responsible for everything wrong with WoW, but the way he butchered the story has harmed the game so much. I'm sure he's not a bad person, but God the guy can't write for sh*t

[Fahrad Wagner]

I'm unhappy with the direction of the story since BfA as well. But I don't think we have enough information available to us about Blizzard's internal processes to lay the fault entirely at Danuser's feet.

For all we know, they could have landed in awful decisions based on an unfortunate team dynamic, with too many conflicting ideas, intervening bosses, or WFH getting in the way.

Perhaps he had to deal with a bad legacy left behind from the weird transition period when Metzen had left and Afrasiabi was in charge of story for a bit.

Maybe the dude wrote literally every piece of dialogue on his own, with a gutted team and no one to brainstorm with.

Point is, it's immature and unnecessary to find scapegoats and to dance on somebody's grave. Let's all just be happy Metzen is back.

I would try and defend him, but the way Nathanos was so evidently a self-insert was enough for me to stop taking Danuser seriously

[Varodoc]

Denathrius is the best character Danuser has ever written. He has one thing that every other Danuser character lacks: an actual Personality.






The only good thing about Shadowlands was Denathrius.

The only thing about Shadowlands worth revisiting in the future is Denathrius.

Everything else can be discarded and thrown in the trash can.