The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Do you think that Raids are a sacred kind of content that is irreplaceable?

If 11.1 did not add a new raid, but added a Megadungeon, new Delves maps, and new allied races, do you think it would be less content for the average player than a new raid?

Why do you think that a patch needs to have a raid to have content, even though Raiding has been in steady decline for over a decade and is no longer the only avenue for Endgame PvE content?

Well, raids have traditionally moved the story forward and I don't see how they will move the story forward without that. They're kind of necessary for the momentum from Start - Middle - Finish as seen with every successful expansion.

Regardless, I am going to get in a infinite loop of explaining why X/Y/Z content output is equivalent to lost raid tiers and I find the prospect of that pretty meaningless. This is as always just speculation and may change immediately upon the alpha embargo having Ion talking candidly about this issue and likely we're all sunshine and rainbows afterwards, anyways.

But the problem is, raids are not really what they should aim with the modern audience anyways anymore, and I say this as a cutting edge raider. We are lucky if we get 2-3 raids + fated, and I would rather have smaller raid tiers and quicker expansions with a new raid than another instance of ICC/DS/SOO/HFC drought from the "best expansions of the past".

I mean I don't really care about this as I outlined in my disclaimers, I've already given up on the story ever gaining quality and play the game for gameplay specific reasons only at this point.

I hate raiders too, by the way. So I'm not exactly going to bat for raiders. I'm just saying from a Lore/Narrative side having less raids will lead to less momentum for the story and I despise that as the game will be dragged through the mud for its main marketing beat being a complete failure due to self sabotage by internal decrease in budget and reduction of live game development months to get a faster box release for the remaining two expansions.

Fundamentally, I'm just frustrated that their marketing went for the one community (Lore/Narrative) that they unequivocally would never actually support properly as it does not fit the short term function of World of Warcraft profit incentives.

[Varodoc]

Well, raids have traditionally moved the story forward

Agreed, which is why I propose to cut down the filler and make raids only when they align with a major shake-up in the story and significant story development.

That is why I mentioned Aberrus. What storyline development did Aberrus have? It and its final boss are literal Nobodies that didn't impact the story in any meaningful way. They couldn't even be bothered to make an actual end cinematic for Sarkareth's defeat, the definition of filler.

and I don't see how they will move the story forward without that.

MoP did that twice. Yes, MoP, the beloved and nostalgic expansion of many people, the peak of 2010s WoW according to many people.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Patch_5.1.0

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Patch_5.3.0


MoP had four patches, but only two of them added Raids (and those two Raids were sprawling and huge). The other two patches pushed forward the storyline simply by adding new questlines (very long questlines with significant developments in the old world, as for instance the Revamped Barrens in 5.3) and new Scenarios.

Start - Middle - Finish as seen with every successful expansion.

Those expansions did not have Mythic+ and Delves.

What I'm saying is: Now that PvE endgame is not just Raiding anymore, why the "Middle" part needs to be a raid, instead of a new megadungeon and new Delves?

Regardless, I am going to get in a infinite loop of explaining why X/Y/Z content output is equivalent to lost raid tiers and I find the prospect of that pretty meaningless.

I will finish by saying that I would gladly and happily sacrifice Aberrus to get Housing.

[Lady Atia]

Agreed, which is why I propose to cut down the filler and make raids only when they align with a major shake-up in the story and significant story development.

That is why I mentioned Aberrus. What storyline development did Aberrus have? It and its final boss are literal Nobodies that didn't impact the story in any meaningful way. They couldn't even be bothered to make an actual end cinematic for Sarkareth's defeat, the definition of filler.



MoP did that twice. Yes, MoP, the beloved and nostalgic expansion of many people, the peak of 2010s WoW according to many people.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Patch_5.1.0

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Patch_5.3.0


MoP had four patches, but only two of them added Raids (and those two Raids were sprawling and huge). The other two patches pushed forward the storyline simply by adding new questlines (very long questlines with significant developments in the old world, as for instance the Revamped Barrens in 5.3) and new Scenarios.



Those expansions did not have Mythic+ and Delves.

What I'm saying is: Now that PvE endgame is not just Raiding anymore, why the "Middle" part needs to be a raid, instead of a new megadungeon and new Delves?



I will finish by saying that I would gladly and happily sacrifice Aberrus to get Housing.

Hard to agree with V but he has a point here - a megadungeon can EASILY replace a mid tier raid in terms of story development, which is actually something they already successfully did with both Shadowlands and Dragonflight.

[Dracullus]

But the problem is, raids are not really what they should aim with the modern audience anyways anymore, and I say this as a cutting edge raider. We are lucky if we get 2-3 raids + fated, and I would rather have smaller raid tiers and quicker expansions with a new raid than another instance of ICC/DS/SOO/HFC drought from the "best expansions of the past".

It's simple, season with 1 big raid last ~6 months = it's good. Longer than 7-8 = bad. Of course final tiers before next expac last longer, but now it's replaced with fated tier.

What was cut is this 3-4 month long entry raid with no tier. Instead they focus more on open world (more patches, more zones, new stuff like delves) and mythic+ (new rotation every season). There were only 2 expansions (+ vanilla) with true 4 tiers: WoTLK (when 1st tier was Naxxramas) and BfA (which lasted 27 months).

Btw I noticed that some people started to treat expansions as some tax put on players that Blizzard just decided to increase. Expansion is something that both takes enormous resources, but also introduces ton of content compared to patch. If Blizzard manages to put new expansion every 18 month instead of every 24, it's success for them and more content to us, not less.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Agreed, which is why I propose to cut down the filler and make raids only when they align with a major shake-up in the story and significant story development.

That is why I mentioned Aberrus. What storyline development did Aberrus have? It and its final boss are literal Nobodies that didn't impact the story in any meaningful way. They couldn't even be bothered to make an actual end cinematic for Sarkareth's defeat, the definition of filler.



MoP did that twice. Yes; MoP, the beloved and nostalgic expansion of many people, the peak of 2010s WoW according to many people.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Patch_5.1.0

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Patch_5.3.0


MoP had four patches, but only two of them added Raids (and those two Raids were sprawling and huge). The other two patches pushed forward the storyline simply by adding new questlines (very long questlines like 5.1) and new Scenarios.



Those expansions did not have Mythic+ and Delves.

What I'm saying is: Now that PvE endgame is not just Raiding anymore, why the "Middle" part needs to be a raid, instead of a new megadungeon and new Delves?



I will finish by saying that I would gladly and happily sacrifice Aberrus to get Housing.

I think MoP is the most anamalous expansion ever, I absolutely adore Mists of Pandaria in retrospective but I have no real clarity on what my viewpoint back then was in regards to the expansion. I just vibed in Pandaria is how I felt back then. If they are looking for a way to structure the World Soul Saga expansion successfully I'd unequivocally use Mists (Now imagine if Escalation actually wasn't just what it was but had story content in it, as well.)


I don't know what happened with Aberrus, I find the entirety of that patch to be nonsensical filler with its only real achievement being settling the Black Dragonflight and Drac'thyr Storyline. But, the presence of the Cosmic Void hole with not a single NPC pondering about it or a continuation of the already present focus on Deathwings' legacy it just really peetered out.

We have really high expectations and excitement in the beginning of every expansion these days with very horrendously confusing mid points where it feels like they just threw whatever they originally planned up in the air and then out the window. There are obvious reasons for why this keeps happening. (High turnover rate in the Video Game Industry, hello!)

Obviously, you can also blame Metzen for walking in the door and coming up with the World Soul Saga as well hypothetically.

Regardless, I think you're on the money in regards to how they need to structure future expansions if the 2 Major/7 Minor cadence is to be successful and we're a long way from scripted in-game scenes with dialogue in text bubbles and so they could make it work better than MoP if they follow such a plan.

The problem is they need to follow a plan and they keep insinuating that they do but it has not really felt like that.


Absolutely, I see the Mists argument as reasonable as a possible way they can do this successfully without the extraneous Raid Tiers. But, I find MoP so anamalous that it somehow feels like it was just random that it works so well in retrospective rather than they actually planned everything to be so well done at the time.

Honestly, Mists is the success template if we have to live with less raid tiers and they should definitely take a gander at how everything just works with it.

Hard to agree with V but he has a point here - a megadungeon can EASILY replace a mid tier raid in terms of story development, which is actually something they already successfully did with both Shadowlands and Dragonflight.

To be fair, none of the Megadungeons have had anything to do with the main plot of the expansions. Well, I guess you can count the DF Megadungeon as being considered to be main plot relevant until Murozond/Galakrond plot thread died in a trash heap and Iridkron went "Wazzup". But, yeah if the Megadungeon is more connected to the main plot going forward they could definitely use it instead.

[Ersula]

Do you think that Raids are a sacred kind of content that is irreplaceable?

As a staple of a major patch? Yes. Or at least the current game directors feel that way (and have expressed that repeatedly.)

If 11.1 did not add a new raid, but added a Megadungeon, new Delves maps, and new allied races, do you think it would be less content for the average player than a new raid?

Well, considering we don't know what Delves include or how elaborate they are (especially when they said they're non-instanced) probably. 10.1.5 was a huge patch. I don't see why they would have felt compelled to call 10.1.5, 10.2: We'd be having this same conversation if 10.1.5 was 10.2 & 10.2 was labeled 10.3

Why do you think that a patch needs to have a raid to have content, even though Raiding has been in steady decline for over a decade and is no longer the only avenue for Endgame PvE content?

Unless there is a huge shift in the dicotomy, Raids are the endgoal of all content, both competetively and narratively: Dragonflight has had a lot of content, but its raids have been smaller than in Shadowlands, and this is a problem with the (bountiful) non-raid content: The raid content has a much longer shelf life than the non-raid content. How active are the Forbidden Reach & Zalarak Caverns? Completely dead. Time Rifts too, glad they finally downscaled the final boss because you'll be lucky to find 5 people doing it & I play on a High pop realm.

That is why I mentioned Aberrus. What storyline development did Aberrus have? It and its final boss are literal Nobodies that didn't impact the story in any meaningful way. They couldn't even be bothered to make an actual end cinematic for Sarkareth's defeat, the definition of filler. MoP did that twice. Yes, MoP, the beloved and nostalgic expansion of many people, the peak of 2010s WoW according to many people.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Patch_5.1.0

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Patch_5.3.0

Yes, but this was basically the model they used in WoD & Legion. The first major patch includes a small raid, then the first major patch corresponds with a second raid, even though that raid existing in the game files. 5.0 is Mogushan Valts, 5.1 is Heart of Fear, 6.0 is Highmaul, 6.1 is Blackrock Foundry, 7.0 is Emerald Nightmare, 7.1 is Nighthold etc. The only difference is Heart of Fear came out a little earlier than 5.1 because they hadn't worked out the cadence yet. As for 5.3 they later adopted the rationality that major patches should correspond with raids & 5.3 might as well been Seige of Org.

But the problem is, raids are not really what they should aim with the modern audience anyways anymore, and I say this as a cutting edge raider. We are lucky if we get 2-3 raids + fated, and I would rather have smaller raid tiers and quicker expansions with a new raid than another instance of ICC/DS/SOO/HFC drought from the "best expansions of the past".

Then what exactly should they be aiming for? By the time Ruby Sanctum came out it didn't help Wrath Classic. Outdoor content that people will stop playing after a few weeks? That's why they're testing an evergreen form of outdoor content with delves (even though they went on-and-on about professions being the 4th pillar of WoW in Dragonflight with the new crafting system & that's barely different other than a FFXIV coat of paint on top.)

I suppose if they do end an expansion with a dungeon that would be a test the players respond positively but most serious players only do Mythic dungeons to prepare for Mythic raiding: You're suggesting the reverse can also be true, but since raids have roof in terms of difficulty & rewards the dynamic would be totally different.

[Cheezits]

Besides some understandable issues with "dropped" plot beats, and issues with expansion pricing, I have really not seen that much anger about expansions potentially shifting to a three raid model. I think they did the research and saw that people don't really mind when they can switch to a new expansion theme and story more quickly than before.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The same reason the Chaos Gods from 40k exist. Pantheons are just that, the collective of Gods in a religion or mythology. They can either be a ruling body, or they can simply be just that...the sum total of gods for a group. Pantheons can be orderly and lawful by nature, or they can be non-orderly, downright chaotic by nature. It doesn't matter.

The chaos gods are notably not a real pantheon and are just the biggest physic parasites in the warp, people long for gods so they take on the visage of them without actually being real gods.

This isn’t a thing in wow where all the powers are real things instead of what people project on to them and thus there shouldn't be any hierarchy and it should just be actual disorder without some one to order them like a Titan.

[Cheezits]

I've seen it a couple times lately, but between the Northrend revamp expansion and the Broken/Orc heritage tease, do we think we're going to get an Outlands (so not WoD) revamp expansion?

I personally believed they were teasing that the outlands were dying, so the races would all eventually move to Azeroth, but it would be a good way to deal with Ogres, Arrakoa and Ethereals all at once. And it fits with the next Saga probably dealing with Kalimdor (so more orcs). Maybe Yrel attacks Outlands, or Dimensius after getting beat in Midnight?

[Ersula]

Besides some understandable issues with "dropped" plot beats, and issues with expansion pricing, I have really not seen that much anger about expansions potentially shifting to a three raid model. I think they did the research and saw that people don't really mind when they can switch to a new expansion theme and story more quickly than before.

I'm fine with this as well, but not with the raids shrinking. Dragonflight's raids are about 20% smaller than Shadowlands, on average.

[Cheezits]

I'm fine with this as well, but not with the raids shrinking. Dragonflight's raids are about 20% smaller than Shadowlands, on average.

I do miss the big big raids but I'm not sure the players/devs do. DF is in a weird spot though where none of the raids conceptually felt large enough to hold a huge number of bosses.

I think the Nerubian palace being eight bosses is a little silly.

[Varodoc]

I do miss the big big raids but I'm not sure the players/devs do.

Don't they?

When you ask the average player what's their favourite raid, the usual answers are:

- Ulduar (14 bosses)

- ToT (13 bosses)

- ICC (12 bosses)

When you ask people what's their opinion of WoD, the usual answer is "The raids were good, it's just a shame there was nothing left to do". WoD is the most hated expansion but people loved its raids and they were huge (Hellfire Citadel alone is 13 bosses).

It seems the exact opposite, that people love these big raids with many bosses and sprawling wings.

The Nerubian palace being just 8 bosses feels silly, I agree. It should be a massive underground complex like Ulduar with 14 bosses.

Anything less will not do justice to the long-awaited Azjol-Nerub raid.

[Reive]

It's clear they're underdelivering in terms of content. raids are getting less bossess, patches are getting smaller, qol are being sold as expansion features. they got more people working on wow and yet we're getting lessing and less content. at certain point one wonders wtf are they doing with their resources

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Important to note that there is the parallelized development argument to contend with, as well.

The Team setup is now:

Live Operation of Current Expansion

Development of Next Expansion

Development of the Expansion after the Next expansion

This does lead to a completely different development environment, we've already gotten rumours centered on the features for Midnight being more "present" than The War Withins' features.

Again, it is totally plausible that we somehow end up with an even better content cadence with this structure in place.

Obviously, the way things look it seems to not be in that direction. But it is still possible the outcomes here end up being good.

There's a lot up in the air in regards to what is happening and I desperately need to hear from the Team again for a more clear picture of what they are thinking in the Post-Blizzcon situation.

I just want the Alpha interviews, already. Bleh.

[Reive]

Important to note that there is the parallelized development argument to contend with, as well.

The Team setup is now:

Live Operation of Current Expansion

Development of Next Expansion

Development of the Expansion after the Next expansion

This does lead to a completely different development environment, we've already gotten rumours centered on the features for Midnight being more "present" than The War Withins' features.

Again, it is totally plausible that we somehow end up with an even better content cadence with this structure in place.

Obviously, the way things look it seems to not be in that direction. But it is still possible the outcomes here end up being good.

There's a lot up in the air in regards to what is happening and I desperately need to hear from the Team again for a more clear picture of what they are thinking in the Post-Blizzcon situation.

I just want the Alpha interviews, already. Bleh.

they're streamlining expansions, but in order to do so they're making them smaller and with less content. doesn't sit well with me that dragonflight was left to rot (for months now) because they need people to make the expansion that comes after the one that is not out yet. also, if the big features are coming with midnight, do we have to wait almost 3 years to see some fresh content in the game?

[Enrif]

I've seen it a couple times lately, but between the Northrend revamp expansion and the Broken/Orc heritage tease, do we think we're going to get an Outlands (so not WoD) revamp expansion?

I personally believed they were teasing that the outlands were dying, so the races would all eventually move to Azeroth, but it would be a good way to deal with Ogres, Arrakoa and Ethereals all at once. And it fits with the next Saga probably dealing with Kalimdor (so more orcs). Maybe Yrel attacks Outlands, or Dimensius after getting beat in Midnight?

The issue is that Outland is breaking apart and dying. I just made a breakdown of possible story beats for Outland to make sense as an expansion in the new classes for the WSS thread. And light, might actually not be the best direction, but life instead.

If Outland has to be brought into the future, the breaking apart needs to stop. And the sporemound from WoD could easily return in Outland that breaks apart (uneartheing a forgotten seedling or something).

Now, a broken Outlands, tied together by rampaging life energy and plants? Now that is interesting and could be a indirect threat to azeroth. Remeber the Everbloom dungeon from WoD?

[Cheezits]

It's clear they're underdelivering in terms of content. raids are getting less bossess, patches are getting smaller, qol are being sold as expansion features. they got more people working on wow and yet we're getting lessing and less content. at certain point one wonders wtf are they doing with their resources

At one point, probably the survival game. Now that everything is shifting to WoW being their (pretty much) only really succesfull game there may be a change, but they may just be using the larger team to make expansions in advance via their new development pipeline as opposed to making any of them considerably larger.

Then again, it could be because TWW was already set in stone and the setting of the expansion didn't allow for any of the "big features" they are already teasing for the future (new class, housing, class skins etc)

Just give us Nerubians and some weird third race, be it Arathi or something else, and move on.

- - - Updated - - -

they're streamlining expansions, but in order to do so they're making them smaller and with less content. doesn't sit well with me that dragonflight was left to rot (for months now) because they need people to make the expansion that comes after the one that is not out yet. also, if the big features are coming with midnight, do we have to wait almost 3 years to see some fresh content in the game?

If they adhere to the DF cadence I think it's still way better than most modern mmo expansions despite the downsizing. If you want to see a really bad smaller expansion try ESO, where you get one major questline a year.

[Reive]

At one point, probably the survival game. Now that everything is shifting to WoW being their (pretty much) only really succesfull game there may be a change, but they may just be using the larger team to make expansions in advance via their new development pipeline as opposed to making any of them considerably larger.

Then again, it could be because TWW was already set in stone and the setting of the expansion didn't allow for any of the "big features" they are already teasing for the future (new class, housing, class skins etc)

Just give us Nerubians and some weird third race, be it Arathi or something else, and move on.

1)nah i don't think there were any overlaps between the 2 games. 2 completely different teams

2)making more expansion more often is not a good thing if each one of them has half the content of a normal one but costs the same if not more. we're getting close to scam levels

3)tww being already a work in progress doesn't justify the fact that 3/4 of the features it has are lazy

If they adhere to the DF cadence I think it's still way better than most modern mmo expansions despite the downsizing. If you want to see a really bad smaller expansion try ESO, where you get one major questline a year.

1) dragonflight cadence was only good on the surface because most patches had little to no content. remember patch 10.1.7 and 10.2.5? both of them amounted to 20 minutes of questing and 1 stupid reskinned event. unironically shadowlands had more content even if it took 1 patch 8 months to come out. also 9.0 was way bigger than 10.0

2) comparing wow to eso is not fair. wow is a bigger game with a sub, an expansion cost and a shop. they should be able to do way more with their resources

[Lorgar Aurelian]

1) dragonflight cadence was only good on the surface because most patches had little to no content. remember patch 10.1.7 and 10.2.5? both of them amounted to 20 minutes of questing and 1 stupid reskinned event. unironically shadowlands had more content even if it took 1 patch 8 months to come out. also 9.0 was way bigger than 10.0

Sl was smaller then DF in every way but raid bosses and Mabye cosmetics it had less quest, less and smaller new areas, less dungeon content, less pretty much every thing and longer gaps between us getting less.

The only real thing DF fails on is it’s raids and if those smaller 10.1.5 esc patches just had mini raids it would have been fine on that.

[Reive]

Sl was smaller then DF in every way but raid bosses and Mabye cosmetics it had less quest, less and smaller new areas, less dungeon content, less pretty much every thing.

no way.

1) 9.0 was way bigger than 10.0
2) 9.1 and 9.2 were around the same size of 10.1 and 10.2 but the zones were better: korthia>zaralek, zereth mortis>emerald dream
3) 5 starting zones vs 4
4) sl had torghast (like it or not) that got updated with every major patch
5) sl had the return of the mage tower
6 sl had better dungeons and raid than df. pvp was also better

the only thing df has over sl is the new class but they tied it to an ugly ass race