The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Lorgar Aurelian]

At least back in the Ulduar days the lore had stated that we couldn’t really kill the old gods without harming the planet, which was the whole point of imprisoning them.

Back then never actually killed the old gods. Just forced them back into dormancy (or something along those lines) with one of the comics even having Cho’gal going to get some power from C’thun.

I don’t know if there was an actual change between Ulduar and Cata but with Cata they said that the old gods were dead dead abs that’s why the shattering actually happened there deaths harmed the planet and deathwing was just the tipping point.

The wow comic also made it rather clear that C’thun was dead dead but even while dead he could still effect things and Cho’gall originally went to revive him but couldn’t so just got a power up instead.

[Makorus]

At least back in the Ulduar days the lore had stated that we couldn’t really kill the old gods without harming the planet, which was the whole point of imprisoning them.

Back then never actually killed the old gods. Just forced them back into dormancy (or something along those lines) with one of the comics even having Cho’gal going to get some power from C’thun.

The lore never said that, ever. Definitely not during the Ulduar days LMAO.

Kaddrak yells: Accessing... Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection. Assessment revealed that Old God infestation had grown malignant. Excising parasites would result in loss of host--
Brann Bronzebeard yells: If they killed the Old Gods, Azeroth would've been destroyed...
Kaddrak yells: Correct. Creators neutralized parasitic threat and contained it within the host. Forge of Wills and other systems were instituted to create new earthen. Safeguards were implemented, and protectors were appointed.

Unless you mean this? That's literally a falsified report by Loken.

Chronicles never stated that Old Gods can't be killed either. All it states is that ripping the old gods out of the planet hurts the host (just like ripping out a wart is generally not advised, but you can freeze it and it withers away without any permanent damage to your skin).

We always killed Old Gods. Them staying alive was just some weird headcanon. Cho'gall literally tries to resurrect C'thun in the comic (Yes, Old Gods still have some residual influence while dead, but quests and dialogue consistently refers to them as dead).

[Nightshade711]

The lore never said that, ever. Definitely not during the Ulduar days LMAO.



Unless you mean this? That's literally a falsified report by Loken.

Chronicles never stated that Old Gods can't be killed either. All it states is that ripping the old gods out of the planet hurts the host (just like ripping out a wart is generally not advised, but you can freeze it and it withers away without any permanent damage to your skin).

We always killed Old Gods. Them staying alive was just some weird headcanon. Cho'gall literally tries to resurrect C'thun in the comic (Yes, Old Gods still have some residual influence while dead, but quests and dialogue consistently refers to them as dead).

If that’s the case then why did blizzard wait until Shadowlands to “confirm” that the Old Gods were all dead instead of you know… when we killed them?

[Makorus]

If that’s the case then why did blizzard wait until Shadowlands to “confirm” that the Old Gods were all dead instead of you know… when we killed them?

Do they confirm that we killed anyone? Did they confirm we killed Blackwing?

[Nightshade711]

Did they confirm we killed Blackwing?

Yes

[Makorus]

Yes

I mean

[Nightshade711]

I mean

Fair enough

[doledippers]

Do they confirm that we killed anyone?

Terran Gregory on the blizzcon 2023 stage said the old gods are dead, but idk if we can exactly count that as canon or not, but just thought id throw it out here

[Varodoc]

It should be pretty obvious that the Old Gods' physical death is not the end for them.

A mortal warlock like Gul'dan was still able to whisper to people and influence them posthumously, through his skull.

Gul'dan is an insignificant ant compared to the Old Gods. If Gul'dan can still have an influence on the living after death, of course the Old Gods can too.

Magni claims that the Old Gods have been destroyed, but he is the King of Diamonds who was made a pawn. And he is still a pawn. Who knows what voice he has been listening to for years? To whose tunes he has been dancing for years? Was it really "Azeroth", or someone else?

The Old Gods do not live and do not die; they exist outside the cycle.

[Varodoc]

The Old Gods exist outside the natural laws of life and death. Same applies to Demons, beings of Death, and other magical beings whose souls are tied to the cosmic realms.

If your average demon dies, it goes back to the Twisting Nether.

If your average necromancer dies, it turns into a powerless and weak ghost who can't do anything (see Kel'Thuzad in WC3 BEFORE he got recreated as a Lich, he was worthless).

If your average Wild God dies, it needs to return to Ardenweald for revival.

If your average Naaru dies, it disappears. We don't see Xe'ra lingering around, do we?

But if your average Old God dies, they can still influence the world in huge ways, as shown by... pretty much every Old God who "died"; including Xal'atath.

The Old Gods are just built different.

[Ersula]

But if your average Old God dies, they can still influence the world in huge ways, as shown by... pretty much every Old God who "died"; including Xal'atath.

The Old Gods are just built different.

The TWW deep dive plainly states the Old Gods are dead & gone. The only influence that lingered was Y'sasrj because he turned into a ghost like entity, and that was only until his heart was destroyed. The old God influence present in the game is c'thun, until he died. Then it was Yogg, then he died. Then it was N'zoth, then he died. Xal'atath was never killed.

[Makorus]

Uhm yes...

Both in 2019, 2020 with interviews, Chronicle, and just recently with TWW confirming they died. That's why Xal'atath and the Void Lords are doing shit more directly now.

- - - Updated - - -



That...just means the Old Gods' presence can still be felt even after death. This isn't a new concept. Y'Shaarj is the best example of that.

Yeah?

I've been arguing that us killing Old Gods is not a new revelation. We've been killing Old Gods since Day 1, and all the "Oh, we just killed their avatars!" is just headcanon to justify that they somehow didn't die. Everything hinted at the fact that we killed them, nothing ever implied that they didn't die.

- - - Updated - - -

The TWW deep dive plainly states the Old Gods are dead & gone. The only influence that lingered was Y'sasrj because he turned into a ghost like entity, and that was only until his heart was destroyed. The old God influence present in the game is c'thun, until he died. Then it was Yogg, then he died. Then it was N'zoth, then he died. Xal'atath was never killed.

I mean, Yogg'saron literally still has some influence as of Legion. Once again though, he is literally dead.

[Raetary]

The Old Gods are dead, their corpses are now rotting beneath our feet (which should have major long term consequences, but oh well).
That doesn't mean that they are incapable of action or that they are gone from the face of the universe.

We know how death works in this franchise, they are now sitting somewhere in the void.
Twirling and whispering and do all the other stuff void abberations do.

[Golden Yak]

What if we go against the plans of the Titans in TLT and they sic Sargeras on us.

That'd be something.

[Nymrohd]

What if we go against the plans of the Titans in TLT and they sic Sargeras on us.

That'd be something.

A waste of potential.
It's better that at the end of this trilogy we have more threats, not less. Sargeras escaping and some of the Pantheon remaining as Antagonists broadens the board.
I also don't see how we are going to get a more satisfying Sargeras encounter just yet.

[Makorus]

A waste of potential.
It's better that at the end of this trilogy we have more threats, not less. Sargeras escaping and some of the Pantheon remaining as Antagonists broadens the board.
I also don't see how we are going to get a more satisfying Sargeras encounter just yet.

I still think a kaiju-esque Azeroth vs Sargeras encounter with us assisting while they are fighting in the background is the only way it would really work, a bit like the Kronos fight in God of War 3.

The only alternatives are shrinking him, which kinda ruins the appeal of fighting a (proper) Titan, us getting made bigger through World-Soul-Magic(TM), which always feels like a cop-out or us "entering" Sargeras on a metaphysical basis, with us fighting his psyche akin to the way Kralkatorrik gets defeated in GW, but that also diminishes the effect of having a big villain.

Ideally, it wouldn't be a raid fight, but a story fight, but WoW just doesn't have the scale and epicness of storyfights that Guild Wars 2 has.

[Nymrohd]

I still think a kaiju-esque Azeroth vs Sargeras encounter with us assisting while they are fighting in the background is the only way it would really work, a bit like the Kronos fight in God of War 3.

The only alternatives are shrinking him, which kinda ruins the appeal of fighting a (proper) Titan, us getting made bigger through World-Soul-Magic(TM), which always feels like a cop-out or us "entering" Sargeras on a metaphysical basis, with us fighting his psyche akin to the way Kralkatorrik gets defeated in GW, but that also diminishes the effect of having a big villain.

Ideally, it wouldn't be a raid fight, but a story fight, but WoW just doesn't have the scale and epicness of storyfights that Guild Wars 2 has.

I have to disagree. I just don't see Titans as physical beings. They are souls that have enough magic to take corporeal forms in a vast variety of sizes. There is nothing wrong with Sargeras infusing ALL of his power into an Avatar and then we fight that. It can still be massive; imagine the original fight with Aegwynn with the Aspects fighting off the demons in the background or the gladiator style duel with Toranaar. I honestly find nothing compelling about a planet-sized god

[Makorus]

I have to disagree. I just don't see Titans as physical beings. They are souls that have enough magic to take corporeal forms in a vast variety of sizes. There is nothing wrong with Sargeras infusing ALL of his power into an Avatar and then we fight that. It can still be massive; imagine the original fight with Aegwynn with the Aspects fighting off the demons in the background or the gladiator style duel with Toranaar. I honestly find nothing compelling about a planet-sized god

Why would he do that though?

That's the whole issue in regards to Titan fights: It only works if they purposefully limit their power, which would be really unsatisfying for the final big encounter.
The whole shtick with Titans is that they are planet-sized gods, essentially. Scaling one down to "just a dude" size would be terrible, and at that point, they might as well not do it at all.

[Golden Yak]

Why would he do that though?

That's the whole issue in regards to Titan fights: It only works if they purposefully limit their power, which would be really unsatisfying for the final big encounter.
The whole shtick with Titans is that they are planet-sized gods, essentially. Scaling one down to "just a dude" size would be terrible, and at that point, they might as well not do it at all.

They already did that in Legion, though. Twice. Aggramar and Argus, reduced because they'd been tortured and tormented how so long. The other Pantheon titans are in the same boat, and you could easily justify shrinking Sargeras down by saying the Pantheon used their combined might to depower him.

I doubt the Pantheon has recovered by now, which would be how Iridikron can realistically theaten them.

[Nymrohd]

Why would he do that though?

That's the whole issue in regards to Titan fights: It only works if they purposefully limit their power, which would be really unsatisfying for the final big encounter.
The whole shtick with Titans is that they are planet-sized gods, essentially. Scaling one down to "just a dude" size would be terrible, and at that point, they might as well not do it at all.

I wouldn't expect him to scale down to just a dude. I'd expect him to scale down to a giant that could wrestle Alexstrasza to the ground. As for why he'd do that, I think a planet sized creature simply cannot hit us. Unless he is OK with just ruining the planet as well, he'll have to scale down to be able to fight us.