The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Ersula]

They're not going to drop level increases. They can't.

Right, they never would. Even though they serve no real purpose: That's the definition of a "formality."

No, that is not a pantheon in Chronicles lore. In Chronicles lore, there is only one pantheon, the Titan Pantheon.

In Chronicles and, really, any kind of lore predating Shadowlands, "pantheon" is not a generic, all-encompassing term that you can apply to any given group of Divine beings. It is a capitalized noun group referring to a single, specific, precise group of people.

Before the Shadowlands lore, there was never "a pantheon". There was only "The Pantheon", which was the Titan group. Nothing more.

The Void Lords were literally not a pantheon of anything in Pre-SL lore.

They literally give us no information about any of the cosmic forces outside of order & discord in Chronicles. Giving more context for existing information is not a retcon. If you're trying to say the Titan's were intended to be the overlords of all cosmic forces, that's not true: They literally stuck a picture of the Titans onto the Order domain in the illustration of the cosmology in Chronicles 1. They elaborated on the cosmology because they had to: The Cosmology in Chronicles 1 is just one sphere we recognize & five mystery boxes.

"Void Lords are in charge of the Void Domain" is not some wild headcanon. It's literally the only thing we knew about the Void.

[Varodoc]

They literally give us no information about any of the cosmic forces outside of order & discord in Chronicles..

Yes, they did, and this is the problem with this New gen. of writers and readers compared to the Old ones, across all media.

You think that everything needs to be revealed in minute details and there should be no mystery anymore. You are wrong.

Chronicles already gave us all the information we needed about the Cosmos. Chronicles already gaev all the information required to understand and enjoy the story. No more additions were required.

You don't need to know anything about Life, Death, Light, and Void besides the fact that they are represented, respectively, by Naaru, Void Lords, Old Gods, Wild Gods, and Undead/Val'kyr, and that the Void Lords want to consume everything. You don't need to know anything more, and a good writer would have left it at that

But we live in an age where the new generation of consumers and writers don't understand the meaning of "mystery" and "unknown".

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Yeah cause back then we only really knew about 1 group of Cosmic gods. We're not in 2010 anymore.

1) The Chronicles series was 2016-2018.

2) Even back in 2010, we already knew that there were other Divine beings besides the Titans. The Old Gods, Naaru, Wild Gods, Elementals, Val'kyr/Spirit Healers were all otherworldly beings that were already known by the playerbase. What are you even saying?

[Varodoc]

I beg you to never read a DC or Marvel comic...

Warcraft is not DC or Marvel. I did not become interested in Warcraft because I want DC or Marvel. Still I expect this post to fall on deaf ears again, given your obsession with turning Warcraft into Dragon Ball Z, DC, and Marvel (which has never been what Warcraft was).

much of these beings were still tethered to the Mortal realm yes?

Completely wrong.

In 2010, we already knew that the Naaru had their own afterlife that they could send souls to, that the Old Gods existed across the stars (read Harbinger Skyriss' quotes from the Arcatraz, the appearance of an Old God was even present in an Outland quest), that the Elemental Lords had their own separate pocket dimensions, that the Wild Gods dwell in the pocket realm of the Emerald Dream, that the Val'kyrs/Spirit Healers are linked to the Shadowlands (which was just a ghostly palette swap of Azeroth back in WotlK). We even knew the existence of the Void Lords, like Dimensius in TBC who was already confirmed the Void Lord who destroyed the Ethereal homeworld. The only thing Chronicles did was recontextualize the Old Gods as the creations of the Void Lords like Dimensius.

Even in WC1, when the setting was just a generic rip-off of Warhammer, we knew the existence of otherworldly beings called "Daemons" who could sometimes manifest on Azeroth (the concept would be developed in later games into the Demonic Burning Legion).

[Ersula]

But we live in an age where the new generation of consumers and writers don't understand the meaning of "mystery" and "unknown".

You can't rely on the same mystery forever. Shadowlands did not dispel the mystery around the cosmic forces....Legion did. We were traveling across the universe & brofisting with Ammonthul. Not only that but the Titans need our help to solve a problem they created. At that point, all mystery surrounding the existing cosmos & Titans was completely gone.

The First Ones & the minutia of the lore itself is not the problem: The way the story is being told is. You can't be complaining that "writers don't understand the meaning of mystery" when you, right now, are complaining about the new mystery they introduced (The First Ones.)

[Foolicious]

No, that is not a pantheon in Chronicles lore.

In Chronicles lore, there is only one pantheon, the Titan Pantheon.

In Chronicles and, really, any kind of lore predating Shadowlands, "pantheon" is not a generic, all-encompassing term that you can apply to any given group of Divine beings. It is a capitalized noun group referring to a single, specific, precise group of people.

Before the Shadowlands lore, there was never "a pantheon". There was only "The Pantheon", which was the Titan group. Nothing more.

The Void Lords were literally not a pantheon of anything in Pre-SL lore.

Thats just twisting language for your own agenda dude. Pantheon isn't some made up word. It has a clear definition and can be used for more than the titans. Yes there is "the" pantheon, but that doesn't mean there aren't a dozen other ones.

[Varodoc]

You can't rely on the same mystery forever. Shadowlands did not dispel the mystery around the cosmic forces....Legion did. We were traveling across the universe & brofisting with Ammonthul.

No we were not "brofisting with Aman'thul", that is your historical revisionism to push an agenda. Aman'thul and the other Titans appeared literally in the final fight of the expansion, to assist the player in fighting the ultimate champion of Sargeras, himself a nascent Titan.

Aman'thul was not a quest giver, like the Primus in Shadowlands. You were not having casual conversations with Aman'thul, like all the Stay awhile and listen convos with the Primus in SL.

Also, while many planets were visited in Legion, practically all of them were random planets either destroyed or invaded by the Legion, which did not actually mean anything in the grand scheme of things.

The only planet that was actually interesting and relevant for the larger picture and wider implications was Elunaria, and it was just one appearance in one raid fight.


No one cared about Random Planet #12 that had to be defended by General DoomBob in the Legion invasions of 7.3 that were literally just a farming scenario with no story.

Thats just twisting language for your own agenda dude. Pantheon isn't some made up word. It has a clear definition and can be used for more than the titans. Yes there is "the" pantheon, but that doesn't mean there aren't a dozen other ones.

This was the only Pantheon before Shadowlands.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Pantheon


There was not a single other Pantheon or group explicitly called "pantheon" besides that one.

There were not a "dozen other Pantheons" before Shadowlands.

Nowhere in the Chronicles is it even alluded to that there are "dozen other Pantheons".

The Chronicles also never referred to the Titans as the "Pantheon of Order". It simply called them "The Pantheon". It was Danuser lore that first referred to them as "Pantheon of Order" instead of "The Pantheon"; a subtle retcon and downgrading, for those few who are able to read between the lines.

Warcraft WAS inspired a ton by Lovecraft, real life mythologies and religions, as well as DC and Marvel, so yes there can be, will be, and have been cosmic connections to the story. Also, fans will want to explore more of a fictional verse. That's why such mysteries exist in the first place.

No, you are wrong.

The reason why the most beloved franchises are those written by Older gens (like Lord of the Rings and ASOIAF) is because these Old gen. understood that mystery is important and not everything should be explored.

Also, we knew about all of this, sure, but much of it was never expanded upon

It did not need to be expanded upon.

[Raetary]

Thats just twisting language for your own agenda dude. Pantheon isn't some made up word. It has a clear definition and can be used for more than the titans. Yes there is "the" pantheon, but that doesn't mean there aren't a dozen other ones.

Can't believe i'm supporting Varodoc here, but we are talking about fiction and not real life etymology.

"Pantheon" has its own meaning, history and connotations in the real world, but in the context of the Warcraft universe "Pantheon" is (or rather, was) specifically the name of the collective that are the Titans.

Voidy is right, there was only 'The Pantheon' up until it wasn't anymore.

[Varodoc]

Which, again, the Pantheon were the only cosmic gods we knew of at the time.

Why is that a problem?

I literally want you to find a valid reason why it's a problem for the setting and storyline if the Titans remain the "only Cosmic Gods" that we know of.

[Varodoc]

The Titans literally empowered the Heroes and required our help in order to defeat Argus.

Why is that a problem and how does that diminish the Titans?

Legion definitely "ruined" the mystery of the Titans there.

How does the Titans featuring in the Argus fight "ruin their mystery"?

Even before they were actually called the Pantheon of Order by the devs

I haven't found anything of the sort.

My point is that back then, we knew very little about the greater cosmology,

Which is par for the course. You're supposed to know very little about the greater cosmology, otherwise there's no point in even calling it "greater cosmology" anymore if you know everything about it.

so the idea of there being different pantheons was unknown at the time

Yeah, because the idea didn't exist and the different pantheons didn't exist until Danuser came along, that should be obvious.

However, you seem to take issue with WoW expanding upon everything, and that is where I'm confused.

I don't have an "issue" with WoW expanding the setting.

I had no issue back in WC3, when the setting expanded the cosmology with the Burning Legion and the Twisting Nether/Outland.

I had no issue back in TBC, when WoW expanded the cosmology with the Naaru and their dimensional vessels.

I had no issue with Chronicles itself expanding on the Void and retroactively recontextualizing the Old Gods as being of the Void (Before Chronicles, the Old Gods were not associated to the Void Lords like Dimensius).

I am simply one of a few who understand that there are limits and boundaries to everything, including the expansion of a setting's cosmology. Chronicles was a good stopping point for the expansion of the setting's cosmology. We didn't need to know anything more than what was stated on Chronicles.

You, unfortunately, seem to think that everything must be expanded to no end. By this virtue, you will have to update your username when the Zero Ones are introduced in 30.0.

[huth]

Right, they never would. Even though they serve no real purpose: That's the definition of a "formality."

Of course they wouldn't. Because contrary to your misled belief, they in fact do serve a very important purpose. Unless you want to start The Last Titan with >100% crit.

[Nibelheimy]

Can't believe i'm supporting Varodoc here, but we are talking about fiction and not real life etymology.

"Pantheon" has its own meaning, history and connotations in the real world, but in the context of the Warcraft universe "Pantheon" is (or rather, was) specifically the name of the collective that are the Titans.

Voidy is right, there was only 'The Pantheon' up until it wasn't anymore.

I'm normally fully on the other side of the fence battling against Varodoc here, but he is right.

[epigramx]

Yes, public hates this unethical decision and it clearly doesn't work, that's why more and more publishers are doing it

That doesn't mean much. Children entered the online-gaming market en masse in the past few years (because ~10 years ago small children were not on the internet 24/7 as much) [e.g. phone-gaming and tablet-gaming for children is massive on pay2win nonsense].

For games for adults like WoW (more or less for adults) I think it's way more insulting than it's often implied to be that unethical (or much more NOTICED(kids are more naive and they can be more easily fooled on tablet/phone gaming)).

[Ersula]

Of course they wouldn't. Because contrary to your misled belief, they in fact do serve a very important purpose. Unless you want to start The Last Titan with >100% crit.

But the same time they raise the level cap they almost always nerf scaling anyway: They don't actually need to do both. Also, remember when they just set raidbosses as two levels above the actual levelcap?

[Pyrophax]

But the same time they raise the level cap they almost always nerf scaling anyway: They don't actually need to do both. Also, remember when they just set raidbosses as two levels above the actual levelcap?

It is still true, but raid bosses +3, dungeons +2

[Nibelheimy]

Idc if the story improves now Danusers gone the fact remains that Shadowlands doesn't need people to explain how terrible it was for the game, how it ruined decades of lore and turned a beloved franchise into a joke for many of its players. Link the clip of nobbel loosing faith in it.

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Sure you are...

No offence to the guy, but normally I close out of the forums and eye roll on his regular tirades and don't come back for days on end. What sort of reply is this?

[Woggmer]

Idc if the story improves now Danusers gone the fact remains that Shadowlands doesn't need people to explain how terrible it was for the game, how it ruined decades of lore and turned a beloved franchise into a joke for many of its players. Link the clip of nobbel loosing faith in it.

It wasn't just the lore, but the gameplay.. like I said, no matter how much of the story could've improved there was nothing that can save it from the covenant system which was an entirely bad idea that people constantly warned about since the Alpha.

I sincerely hope that we get more info about TWW in this week or the next one... We won't get new info about 10.2.6 until March and Cata Classic's Beta having been delayed is going to feel like a painfully long few weeks to wait for any new information.

[Viridiel]

That goes with my "islands of Azeroth" thing.

My vision is that after (or during) The Last Titan we destroy the elemental plane, causing another cataclysm that spurs on piecemeal revamps of the Old World that essentially amounts to revisiting older expansions, although I think it will get more mixed and abstract as we go along. For example, I think we'll get a South Seas expansion that essentially amounts to a revamp of Mists and BfA, but with a focus on pirates/seafaring and just taking place in an area that includes (the now very different) Pandaria and BfA zones. I think revisiting WoD will be in the form of a revamped Central Kalimdor since that's where the orcs live and a bunch of wildlife from Draenor is loose in Durotar and the Barrens. We could still revisit AU Draenor, but if we do I think it'd be a single zone. Yrel and her Sparkling Crusade have surely left the planet and are enslaving the entire alternate universe.

But it isn't really interesting enough to just visit old areas for the sake of it, so I'm sure these stories will be tied together with the cosmic storylines. The cosmic-level storylines we have breadcrumbs for already are Denathrius, Elune, Light vs. Void, and the First Ones stuff. On Azeroth we have Avaloren, Elun'Ahir, and the Nightsquall, which might all end up being tied together in the same expansion although I hope that's not the case. They've got a lot of wiggle room when it comes to combining all of these different-level storylines and their implications to each other -- i.e., any planet-level or cosmic-level storyline could easily literally reshape the planet and allow for removal of constraints without retconning/"disrespecting" old lore.

[Woggmer]

My vision is that after (or during) The Last Titan we destroy the elemental plane, causing another cataclysm that spurs on piecemeal revamps of the Old World that essentially amounts to revisiting older expansions, although I think it will get more mixed and abstract as we go along. For example, I think we'll get a South Seas expansion that essentially amounts to a revamp of Mists and BfA, but with a focus on pirates/seafaring and just taking place in an area that includes (the now very different) Pandaria and BfA zones. I think revisiting WoD will be in the form of a revamped Central Kalimdor since that's where the orcs live and a bunch of wildlife from Draenor is loose in Durotar and the Barrens. We could still revisit AU Draenor, but if we do I think it'd be a single zone. Yrel and her Sparkling Crusade have surely left the planet and are enslaving the entire alternate universe.

But it isn't really interesting enough to just visit old areas for the sake of it, so I'm sure these stories will be tied together with the cosmic storylines. The cosmic-level storylines we have breadcrumbs for already are Denathrius, Elune, Light vs. Void, and the First Ones stuff. On Azeroth we have Avaloren, Elun'Ahir, and the Nightsquall, which might all end up being tied together in the same expansion although I hope that's not the case. They've got a lot of wiggle room when it comes to combining all of these different-level storylines and their implications to each other -- i.e., any planet-level or cosmic-level storyline could easily literally reshape the planet and allow for removal of constraints without retconning/"disrespecting" old lore.

Well, I don't think we'll be seeing a Cataclysm since we just killed the Firelord and pretty soon a new one will have to take the place...There's also the issue that Magatha Grimtotem is still out there (she was supposed to show up in DF but for some reason they cut that part out.. yet through a bit of searching in Wowhead, you can find her model set for 10.0 aka DF's launch.) And we don't know the dangerous power that is the Doomstone and what it is capable of but it was hyped up to be something extremely powerful.

We don't know what'll happen when the Titans show up, but I don't think they'll free the Elemental Lords from their prison... and even if we did free them, there's no guarantee that they'll be friendly with each other or with us (like with Smolderon in DF).


But if we're expecting areas that need revamps.. I want to see Outland get one. It's been over 15 years since we last been there, 10 if you were a warlock doing the green fire quest. And Sabellion and his crew show up and say "The realm of Outland is a terrifying place with horrific monsters.. in a harsh world." ...We can one shot anything in Outland, they're not that scary.

[Auxis]

Well, I don't think we'll be seeing a Cataclysm since we just killed the Firelord and pretty soon a new one will have to take the place...There's also the issue that Magatha Grimtotem is still out there (she was supposed to show up in DF but for some reason they cut that part out.. yet through a bit of searching in Wowhead, you can find her model set for 10.0 aka DF's launch.) And we don't know the dangerous power that is the Doomstone and what it is capable of but it was hyped up to be something extremely powerful.

We don't know what'll happen when the Titans show up, but I don't think they'll free the Elemental Lords from their prison... and even if we did free them, there's no guarantee that they'll be friendly with each other or with us (like with Smolderon in DF).


But if we're expecting areas that need revamps.. I want to see Outland get one. It's been over 15 years since we last been there, 10 if you were a warlock doing the green fire quest. And Sabellion and his crew show up and say "The realm of Outland is a terrifying place with horrific monsters.. in a harsh world." ...We can one shot anything in Outland, they're not that scary.

Well, we know from the Saurfang cinematic in BFA that Nagrand - one of the last safe places in Outland - is finally showing signs of death. The wheat that Thrall grows crumbled as Varok grazed it with his hands. If that is happening to a zone where the Elemental Furies call home, I don't think the other zones that are literally almost 100% stone and dirt are going to be faring much better for any longer - Netherstorm is on the brink of collapse pretty much 99% of the time due to it's storms, Blades edge is right next door to Netherstorm but might fair better seeing as it seems to be a solid chunk of rock, Hellfire Penninsula looks brittle AF, same goes for SMV.

Terokkar Forest and Zangarmarsh might survive for a bit, especially Zangar seeing as it's basically the corpse of a Sporemound.

[Viridiel]

Well, I don't think we'll be seeing a Cataclysm since we just killed the Firelord and pretty soon a new one will have to take the place...There's also the issue that Magatha Grimtotem is still out there (she was supposed to show up in DF but for some reason they cut that part out.. yet through a bit of searching in Wowhead, you can find her model set for 10.0 aka DF's launch.) And we don't know the dangerous power that is the Doomstone and what it is capable of but it was hyped up to be something extremely powerful.

We don't know what'll happen when the Titans show up, but I don't think they'll free the Elemental Lords from their prison... and even if we did free them, there's no guarantee that they'll be friendly with each other or with us (like with Smolderon in DF).


But if we're expecting areas that need revamps.. I want to see Outland get one. It's been over 15 years since we last been there, 10 if you were a warlock doing the green fire quest. And Sabellion and his crew show up and say "The realm of Outland is a terrifying place with horrific monsters.. in a harsh world." ...We can one shot anything in Outland, they're not that scary.

By a cataclysm I meant a world-changing event, not a revisit of Cataclysm. I really definitely do not want to reopen the debate of whether Dragonflight was an "elemental" expansion or not, but I think it would be difficult to argue that Dragonflight didn't at least touch on most of the themes of Cataclysm. The only thing missing was Thrall.

I also don't see why the titans would possibly be the ones to free the elemental lords, and I also don't see why they would be particularly friendly toward us. I think Iridikron is going to release them and they're all going to be hostile toward us and each other, which is what's going to cause a reshaping of the world and create new factions and enemies. Only two of the original elemental lords are left, and only one of the two still have an area on Azeroth that corresponds to their original domain. Neptulon will definitely return to Northern Kalimdor, but Therazane's domain doesn't really exist anymore (I think Highmountain is the only remnant left, maybe Howling Fjord), Thunderaan isn't necessarily beholden to Al'Akir's former domain, and we don't know what's going on with the Fire Lord. There's a lot of wiggle room.

I think there's a fairly strong chance we'll revisit Outland in the World Soul Saga. Outland is our anchor point in the Twisting Nether, so if the story takes us to the Twisting Nether then I think it needs to take us to Outland.

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Well, we know from the Saurfang cinematic in BFA that Nagrand - one of the last safe places in Outland - is finally showing signs of death. The wheat that Thrall grows crumbled as Varok grazed it with his hands. If that is happening to a zone where the Elemental Furies call home, I don't think the other zones that are literally almost 100% stone and dirt are going to be faring much better for any longer - Netherstorm is on the brink of collapse pretty much 99% of the time due to it's storms, Blades edge is right next door to Netherstorm but might fair better seeing as it seems to be a solid chunk of rock, Hellfire Penninsula looks brittle AF, same goes for SMV.

Terokkar Forest and Zangarmarsh might survive for a bit, especially Zangar seeing as it's basically the corpse of a Sporemound.

I agree. Blade's Edge Mountains are doing very well according to Sabellian, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's because of the black dragons' earth magic and/or Apexis magic. Same goes for Nagrand -- the shaman are probably working with the Furies to hold everything together but I don't see it lasting. Auchindoun was a mild earthquake away from snapping off into the Nether and Shadowmoon Valley was still being barraged with Arcane and Fel magic from the ritual that tore the planet apart to begin with.

I think if we return, the continent is essentially just going to be Blade's Edge Mountains, Zangarmarsh, and Shattrath.