The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Makorus]

Yeah, that's the point, the player base disagrees with his ideals, it's just that every other character on the Alliance always agrees with him. The only exception being Tyrande who actually wanted to hunt down Sylvanas to get revenge and Anduin was more concerned about bridging relations with the Horde... and she called him out to be a naive child who doesn't know anything.

No, the game itself disagrees with him.

Every single time he stuck with his ideals he got fucked over. Jaina disagreed with him a lot, obviously Tyrande, and even Genn.

Other than that, who does he interact with from the Alliance?

[doledippers]

if / when we get the 10.2.6 announcement im guessing itll be more of a teaser than an announcement. Just enough so players would have a general idea on where to go, what to do, and what to expect when they log in. Obviously im hoping to get an announcement this week, but im expecting itll be next week and then the patch launches on the 19th.

Hearthstone anniversary event is listed as a 10.2.5 feature on the roadmap, and calendar has it running from the 11th to the 18th (monday) so imo the 19th makes perfect sense

[Murlocos]

No, the game itself disagrees with him.

Every single time he stuck with his ideals he got fucked over. Jaina disagreed with him a lot, obviously Tyrande, and even Genn.

Other than that, who does he interact with from the Alliance?

Genn's disagreement with Anduin in 8.1 got neutered, unless there's something else I'm missing. On the PTR, he said something along the lines of not listening to the orders of a boy king before leaving for Darkshore, on live he's much more mild mannered about it.

I'll throw my hat in and broaden the issue to being that Anduin is overcentralizing to the story. Tyrande does part ways with him, but that story leads to her failing to get revenge with the ultimate lesson being that she was going too far. Anduin is right.

Who actually deals with Sylvanas and coaxes her into redemption? Anduin.
Who pulls Saurfang out of his stupor and convinces him to not give up? Anduin.

I don't think the game disagrees with Anduin because it always wraps around to vindicating him. One by one, we see characters go through the same arc over and over again: Anduin is too naive for them but he refuses to budge on his ideals, they finally decide to give him a chance and it turns out he was right. Anduin being naive matters less and less when the number of characters that are changed by him and join his surrogate family grows with each expansion, and the ones that reject his ideals are villains to kill off. Before Dragonflight, it was a common joke that Baine cared more about Anduin than the Horde or his own people.

Side note: it's really funny that Stormwind's spymaster is taking orders from Gilneas's king to not report information on Stormwind's missing king to their regent (who we are reminded several times is not as popular as the perfect king Anduin). I don't think the writers would see this as treasonous because they view the cast as a group of friends and not sovereign leaders of nations with their own interests and needs.

Warcraft's never had a true main character and instead relied on a rotating ensemble cast, but Anduin is the closest we've come to them trying to make one character the center of the world, and he's used as a cudgel to defuse any and all tension within the cast. He's a foil to Warcraft, and that works when he's one of many characters in the mix, not one where half the Horde leaders will jump to defend at all costs. Nobody will disagree with each other on anything because that's not what Anduin would want. Green Jesus is looking like a false prophet in comparison to the new kid.

[allegrian]

Genn's disagreement with Anduin in 8.1 got neutered, unless there's something else I'm missing. On the PTR, he said something along the lines of not listening to the orders of a boy king before leaving for Darkshore, on live he's much more mild mannered about it.

I'll throw my hat in and broaden the issue to being that Anduin is overcentralizing to the story. Tyrande does part ways with him, but that story leads to her failing to get revenge with the ultimate lesson being that she was going too far. Anduin is right.

Who actually deals with Sylvanas and coaxes her into redemption? Anduin.
Who pulls Saurfang out of his stupor and convinces him to not give up? Anduin.

I don't think the game disagrees with Anduin because it always wraps around to vindicating him. One by one, we see characters go through the same arc over and over again: Anduin is too naive for them but he refuses to budge on his ideals, they finally decide to give him a chance and it turns out he was right. Anduin being naive matters less and less when the number of characters that are changed by him and join his surrogate family grows with each expansion, and the ones that reject his ideals are villains to kill off. Before Dragonflight, it was a common joke that Baine cared more about Anduin than the Horde or his own people.

Side note: it's really funny that Stormwind's spymaster is taking orders from Gilneas's king to not report information on Stormwind's missing king to their regent (who we are reminded several times is not as popular as the perfect king Anduin). I don't think the writers would see this as treasonous because they view the cast as a group of friends and not sovereign leaders of nations with their own interests and needs.

Warcraft's never had a true main character and instead relied on a rotating ensemble cast, but Anduin is the closest we've come to them trying to make one character the center of the world, and he's used as a cudgel to defuse any and all tension within the cast. He's a foil to Warcraft, and that works when he's one of many characters in the mix, not one where half the Horde leaders will jump to defend at all costs. Nobody will disagree with each other on anything because that's not what Anduin would want. Green Jesus is looking like a false prophet in comparison to the new kid.

It works if the new direction is horde + alliance team vs the world (which as shown in DF it clearly is).

We're not going back to faction conflict since BFA ended with the alliance/anduin making sure every horde leader is one of his buddies. Thrall didn't interact with Anduin too much but they'll be sure to fix that in TWW, and the first thing that Baine says in the horde DF intro is how much he cares about Anduin. Patch by patch, blizzard is trying to make the playerbase come together and realise that horde content is now alliance content as well, and viceversa, as we are all the same now: the heroes of the story like the avengers.

[Makorus]

Genn's disagreement with Anduin in 8.1 got neutered, unless there's something else I'm missing. On the PTR, he said something along the lines of not listening to the orders of a boy king before leaving for Darkshore, on live he's much more mild mannered about it.

I'll throw my hat in and broaden the issue to being that Anduin is overcentralizing to the story. Tyrande does part ways with him, but that story leads to her failing to get revenge with the ultimate lesson being that she was going too far. Anduin is right.

Who actually deals with Sylvanas and coaxes her into redemption? Anduin.
Who pulls Saurfang out of his stupor and convinces him to not give up? Anduin.

I don't think the game disagrees with Anduin because it always wraps around to vindicating him. One by one, we see characters go through the same arc over and over again: Anduin is too naive for them but he refuses to budge on his ideals, they finally decide to give him a chance and it turns out he was right. Anduin being naive matters less and less when the number of characters that are changed by him and join his surrogate family grows with each expansion, and the ones that reject his ideals are villains to kill off. Before Dragonflight, it was a common joke that Baine cared more about Anduin than the Horde or his own people.

Side note: it's really funny that Stormwind's spymaster is taking orders from Gilneas's king to not report information on Stormwind's missing king to their regent (who we are reminded several times is not as popular as the perfect king Anduin). I don't think the writers would see this as treasonous because they view the cast as a group of friends and not sovereign leaders of nations with their own interests and needs.

Warcraft's never had a true main character and instead relied on a rotating ensemble cast, but Anduin is the closest we've come to them trying to make one character the center of the world, and he's used as a cudgel to defuse any and all tension within the cast. He's a foil to Warcraft, and that works when he's one of many characters in the mix, not one where half the Horde leaders will jump to defend at all costs. Nobody will disagree with each other on anything because that's not what Anduin would want. Green Jesus is looking like a false prophet in comparison to the new kid.

I don't understand these posts because when does Anduin do anything? The few times he does stuff, he fucks it up.

War of Thorns? Anduin messed that up.

Lordaeron? Anduin almost got everyone killed.

Darkshore? Pissed everyone off.

Dazar'alor? Achieved the complete opposite of what he wanted to achieve.

Literally everyone bar Jaina disagreed with the peace treaty, but yeah, they had to, because he is the High King.

He wasn't even the one who redeemed Sylvanas, it was Uther.

If you want an example of Mary Sue just look at Saurfang. Gets away completely scot-free with all the shit he has caused, with no repercussions, and gets celebrated as the biggest hero ever after he dies.

[Pheraz]

You wronged your propaganda pics. And forgot your CaNnOt pOsSiBlE bE VilLiAnS starter pack.
...


See, I can do it too.
But again, that is not a thread about AvH.

You forgot the quest in bfa alliance war campaign were you kinda kill thousands of goblins With that ratrher small, overpowered dark iron elemental

[Varodoc]

You forgot the quest in bfa alliance war campaign were you kinda kill thousands of goblins With that ratrher small, overpowered dark iron elemental

A Meme quest for a Meme race. Rather irrelevant for the actual Lore.

[doledippers]

A Meme quest for a Meme race. Rather irrelevant for the actual Lore.

meme race = race you personally dont care about

classic

[Makorus]

A Meme quest for a Meme race. Rather irrelevant for the actual Lore.

So sad when the meme race gets more relevance than Void Elves.

Must really sting.

[Varodoc]

meme race = race you personally dont care about

classic

Meme race = Race that is only ever kept around for comic relief.

Stop trying to defend the downtrodden just to be a contrarian. Goblin are literally, unequivocally a comic relief/meme race.

- - - Updated - - -

So sad when the meme race gets more relevance than Void Elves.

Must really sting.

Does it?

If that "relevance" involves killing 200 goblin for fun, well then... bring on more Goblin relevance!

[doledippers]

Meme race = Race that is only ever kept around for comic relief.

Stop trying to defend the downtrodden just to be a contrarian. Goblin are literally, unequivocally a comic relief/meme race.

you calling someone a contrarian is pretty funny, thats like your whole shtick. I know part of your bit is to claim to somehow have telepathy and insight into the minds of and intents of the developers when something is made, but be real here. Just because a race has humorous elements doesn't mean they were added as a joke and don't serve any purpose in the game

[Varodoc]

you calling someone a contrarian is pretty funny, thats like your whole shtick. I know part of your bit is to claim to somehow have telepathy and insight into the minds of and intents of the developers when something is made, but be real here. Just because a race has humorous elements doesn't mean they were added as a joke and don't serve any purpose in the game

Why do you want to turn the Goblin into something that they are not (a serious race)?

Let Me assure you: No one who ever picked Goblin wanted to play a serious race (like Elves/Humans).

[doledippers]

Why do you want to turn the Goblin into something that they are not (a serious race)?

Let Me assure you: No one who ever picked Goblin wanted to play a serious race (like Elves/Humans).

im glad you are here to speak for everyone varadoc, it brings me comfort knowing that you are tuned into the minds of every person who has ever picked goblin as a race.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You forgot the quest in bfa alliance war campaign were you kinda kill thousands of goblins With that ratrher small, overpowered dark iron elemental

This wouldn’t even be a villain thing the goblins were the ones who attacked the dark irons on arrival trying to boil them in there mole machines and the DI just responded in kind.

[Varodoc]

im glad you are here to speak for everyone varadoc, it brings me comfort knowing that you are tuned into the minds of every person who has ever picked goblin as a race.

Yeah you're just being a contrarian because you hold a grudge or whatever.

Goblin literally aren't a serious race.

You cannot possibly look at the Goblin lore, personality, and aesthetic, and think that they are a race to be taken seriously.

[doledippers]

Yeah you're just being a contrarian because you hold a grudge or whatever.

Goblin literally aren't a serious race.

just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are a contrarian. Though i could see why you would think that given you believe everything you say is unquestionably true

[Nymrohd]

Goblins are part of the tapestry of WoW. They have a very specific theme that is reasonably unique to WoW compared to thatsteampunk and cyberpunk gnomes are far older than WoW, my reference goes to Dragonlance and they are probably older than that. If I was giving a visual description of WoW I'd probably include goblins and I would DEFINITELY include them if I was describing the Horde with Gazlowe probably being one of the founders of the Horde to me right after Thrall, Vol'jin, Cairne.
Meanwhile Void Elves . . . meh, there is nothing particularly unique to them. They don't even have a cool visual, they should have given them a proper emo look or something (or since you are going for grey blue skinned shadow elves, just full on copy Shadar-Kai and make them goth).

[Murlocos]

I don't understand these posts because when does Anduin do anything? The few times he does stuff, he fucks it up.

War of Thorns? Anduin messed that up.

Lordaeron? Anduin almost got everyone killed.

Darkshore? Pissed everyone off.

Dazar'alor? Achieved the complete opposite of what he wanted to achieve.

Literally everyone bar Jaina disagreed with the peace treaty, but yeah, they had to, because he is the High King.

He wasn't even the one who redeemed Sylvanas, it was Uther.

If you want an example of Mary Sue just look at Saurfang. Gets away completely scot-free with all the shit he has caused, with no repercussions, and gets celebrated as the biggest hero ever after he dies.

The greater Alliance doesn't even show up for the War of Thorns with the Horde allegedly being too quick to act. It's an inconsistent trainwreck of a story where Sylvanas's motivations are retroactively changed to align with SL despite making no sense with it in mind, but since this ties directly into Darkshore I'll touch on it then.

The Alliance as a whole are portrayed as bumbling idiots in Lordaeron, which is hilarious that it's portrayed as the counterpart to the Horde's clinical annihilation of the night elves. I can't see this as being meant to be a failing of Anduin when the writers thought this was a rousing victory for the Alliance and not something totally embarrassing.

I'll reiterate how Darkshore played out: Tyrande is furious with Anduin and leaves. Genn was originally also furious with Anduin, but then this was rewritten into him just politely stepping away to honor his debts to the nelves and making sure to not lash out at Anduin. This plot thread is then picked back up in SL where it is constantly iterated how Tyrande's desire for vengeance is destroying her to the point that her patron deity possesses her to stop her from achieving it. Tyrande is thoroughly chastised for going down the path contrary to Anduin's wishes.

Dazar'alor is practically a moot point. Why? Because the war effectively ends right after it. 8.1.5 begins the hard shift to trying to set up SL, and the war speed runs towards its conclusion of Saurfang doing a suicidal rush at Sylvanas (and yeah, don't get me started on how utterly nonsensical Saurfang's story is). Anduin can say that he thinks all they've done is unite the Horde against them further, but that doesn't matter when the story immediately jumps to the war ending afterwards. Misgivings about the armistice don't matter because we immediately jump into the afterlife for 2 years, and then come back to being told a timeskip happened and everyone is friends now. His 'failure' has no actual consequences, they don't even begin to explore it.

Sylvanas doesn't even get to Uther without Anduin making her doubt what she is doing and causing her to eventually turn against the Jailer. I mean, I'd like to think that's what happened and that Sylvanas didn't just switch sides solely on the basis of hearing the word "serve", but you can never be certain with this quality of writing.

----

Here's the thing and what I've touched on a bit, is that you can make a case for Anduin being a failure, absolutely. It's not a stretch at all to interpret these events as Anduin being a king that only served for about 2 years, during a war in which they were conscripting farmers very early on and alienated several Alliance nations. It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine a scenario where Anduin makes nice with other nation's leaders, but is incompetent at actually ruling his own nation or keeping his subordinates in check due to his kindness.

But that's not what the writers are doing. We are explicitly told that Anduin was a popular and loved king and that people prefer him over Turalyon. We see cases where adjustments are made to the writing specifically to make characters more agreeable with Anduin. His failures end up not mattering because they are immediately waved away; it doesn't matter if you think he completely bungled the Fourth War, because the canon is that everyone got over it and there are no issues now. He is continually vindicated because the writers do not actually see him as doing any wrong. When he assumes responsibility for a failure, the writers are not doing it to say "Look at how inept this naive boy king is", they are doing it to say "Look at this poor sweet boy, he's too good for this world". The intent is key, and the writing is nowhere near subtle or nuanced enough to believe their intent is anything else.

[Worldshaper]

See, Blizzard? See what happens when you don't post any retail news for a month?

Complete anarchy in the speculation thread!

[doledippers]

See, Blizzard? See what happens when you don't post any retail news for a month?

Complete anarchy in the speculation thread!

i do think this could be a learning opportunity for them, though. The idea of untested patches are fine, but the lack of news was/is definitely felt. Maybe they could compromise and do an untested patch but have some stream of news about it, rather than keeping it entirely secret. either that or plan to have some other news to supplement the lack of usual patch info