The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[allegrian]

It's not the fault of the audience that the developers have failed to produce investment in a product sold on an entirely different basis. Blizzard meant for you to be incredibly invested in Sylvanas's Bald Man-induced psychodrama and how she wouldn't serve. Would you say you were? Were you engrossed in the story they were telling as the Bland Gang stepped into the crucible of creation itself where the Progenitor Beings drew up the schematics for concepts of form and emotion and their first lines were "Gawsh, I wonder what's happening to Anduin "?

Blizzard's writting being shit is another topic. I was just talking about people who doesn't like the story focusing on characters from the other faction because they are so invested in theirs that end up ignoring half the game, which is like playing W3 and just playing the campaign from one race.

[Super Dickmann]

Blizzard's writting being shit is another topic. I was just talking about people who doesn't like the story focusing on characters from the other faction because they are so invested in theirs that end up ignoring half the game, which is like playing W3 and just playing the campaign from one race.

No, that is a symptom of the writing being shit. Again, were you invested in Sylvanas's story? She is a world character, the story was made for you, regardless of race, faction and class to be incredibly interested in how Sylvanas overcame her hitherto unknown conflict with the Bald Man and became a hero for the whole world and ultimately went on to repent. If you weren't, much like much anyone Horde-side didn't care for our entire faction becoming a useless appendix to Anduin's hero narrative, then the fault is on the developers who failed to catch your investment, not on an audience who never signed up for this concept and who said writers failed to get invested when they decided to rotate the story around it.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I keep wondering if Blizz regrets allowing this wild glimpse into the future and plans to "forget" about it.

You mean the current blizzard? The one that retcons stuff set up in the very previous patch? Of course, and they'll surely retcon it as much as they can. But it showed that blizzard saw anduin as one of the most importanr characters back then, just after becoming king.

Blizzard said all the way back in legion that it was just a possible future that Velan saw and isn’t destined to happen.

Fans just either forgot or missed that part so it’s really not on blizzard when it doesn’t come true.

[Murlocos]

Blizzard's writting being shit is another topic. I was just talking about people who doesn't like the story focusing on characters from the other faction because they are so invested in theirs that end up ignoring half the game, which is like playing W3 and just playing the campaign from one race.

WC3 also evokes very different fantasies from faction to faction and the characters that comprise them. Arthas, Uther, and Jaina do not have the same dynamic as Thrall, Grom, and Cairne. It doesn't feel like you're playing the Alliance of Lordaeron 4 times over.

It's not just that WoW currently lacks that, it's that those distinctions are hitting all time lows. The sense of individuality in the cast right now is abysmal; almost every character feels like a chess piece with the same amount of personality you'd expect from a piece of wood that follows whatever it's told without question. We're at the point where characters don't even speak in complete sentences anymore, they all team up to speak parts of one whole complete sentence like they're part of a hivemind.

It's not just that the attempt at character-centric writing is bad, it's that the excuse is that they need to erode the depth and diversity of the world in service of it so every character can be on the exact same wavelength and have zero distinct screen presence, and it's still bad. The RTS roots of the franchise helped distinguish WoW, trying to make it more of a generic western fantasy D&D story is a regression.

Writing like this is how you get conflicts like "they put Titan fluoride in the dragon eggs 20,000 years ago" or them not actually figuring out what Sylvanas's motivation even was until after the expansion ended.

[allegrian]

WC3 also evokes very different fantasies from faction to faction and the characters that comprise them. Arthas, Uther, and Jaina do not have the same dynamic as Thrall, Grom, and Cairne. It doesn't feel like you're playing the Alliance of Lordaeron 4 times over.

It's not just that WoW currently lacks that, it's that those distinctions are hitting all time lows. The sense of individuality in the cast right now is abysmal; almost every character feels like a chess piece with the same amount of personality you'd expect from a piece of wood that follows whatever it's told without question. We're at the point where characters don't even speak in complete sentences anymore, they all team up to speak parts of one whole complete sentence like they're part of a hivemind.

It's not just that the attempt at character-centric writing is bad, it's that the excuse is that they need to erode the depth and diversity of the world in service of it so every character can be on the exact same wavelength and have zero distinct screen presence, and it's still bad. The RTS roots of the franchise helped distinguish WoW, trying to make it more of a generic western fantasy D&D story is a regression.

Writing like this is how you get conflicts like "they put Titan fluoride in the dragon eggs 20,000 years ago" or them not actually figuring out what Sylvanas's motivation even was until after the expansion ended.

What are you saying is true, but it doesn't contradict my take that we should care about the story of the game as whole and not only story related to our faction. They can still male Anduin the main character while writing the characters from other races properly.

We'll see in The War Within, starring Anduin, Alleria and Thrall as well as having lots of Dwarf and Human stuff in it, if they can fix this problem. It's the first expansion marketed with an increased focus on the story (with the whole metzen and world soul saga), so if they fail here, I'd say it's joever.

[Varodoc]

Horde players should care about Anduin's story as it's warcraft story. The same way that everyone got to play through the Arthas, NE, Thrall and Blood Elf stories in W3. The problem with the playerbase, specially since BFA, is that the faction pride stuff got into their heads and see the other side as a different game they don't care about and them getting content translates as bad or irrelevant content for the other faction.

- - - Updated - - -



You mean the current blizzard? The one that retcons stuff set up in the very previous patch? Of course, and they'll surely retcon it as much as they can. But it showed that blizzard saw anduin as one of the most importanr characters back then, just after becoming king.

WC3 is not WoW.

In WC3, you were forced to care about Arthas, NE, Thrall, and Blood Elves, because you either played as them, or didn't play the Campaign at all.

In WoW, you are not forced to play the other faction. In Cataclysm, I did not give a single fuck about Thrall and Aggra. They are not Alliance, why would I care? Not a single Alliance quest in Cata gave you a reason to care about Thrall and Aggra. Yet now, in DF, I have to care about Thrall's feelings.

Blizzard is in full cutting costs mode, so they no longer want to make Faction-specific storylines, because it's cheaper to make one storyline instead of two.

So, if you're a Horde/Forsaken fan, have fun being Anduin's therapist!

[allegrian]

WC3 is not WoW.

In WC3, you were forced to care about Arthas, NE, Thrall, and Blood Elves, because you either played as them, or didn't play the Campaign at all.

In WoW, you are not forced to play the other faction. In Cataclysm, I did not give a single fuck about Thrall and Aggra. They are not Alliance, why would I care? Not a single Alliance quest in Cata gave you a reason to care about Thrall and Aggra. Yet now, in DF, I have to care about Thrall's feelings.

Blizzard is in full cutting costs mode, so they no longer want to make Faction-specific storylines, because it's cheaper to make one storyline instead of two.

So, if you're a Horde/Forsaken fan, have fun being Anduin's therapist!

If you didnt care about Thrall in cata, then you didn't care about cata lol, he was the main character and the one who finished deathwing, and you followed him around in many quests. It's like saying you played W3 but didn't care about Arthas because you play orcs as if you can ignore his story.

[Varodoc]

If you didnt care about Thrall in cata, then you didn't care about cata lol, he was the main character and the one who finished deathwing, and you followed him around in many quests. It's like saying you played W3 but didn't care about Arthas because you play orcs as if you can ignore his story.

You can't possibly look at Cataclysm storytelling and not see any difference with DF.

[Ersula]

You can't possibly look at Cataclysm storytelling and not see any difference with DF.

Then you should be happy because Metzen is back. BTW this is an actual line he wrote for Alleria, referring to Orcs, Metzen's pet race:

It is only genocide when those being slain are people. This is nothing more than exterminating vermin.

WC3 also evokes very different fantasies from faction to faction and the characters that comprise them. Arthas, Uther, and Jaina do not have the same dynamic as Thrall, Grom, and Cairne. It doesn't feel like you're playing the Alliance of Lordaeron 4 times over.

Nor does it feel like the Alliance & Horde of the first 2 games, because it ostensibly isn't. The Horde formed in Warcraft 3 is an entirely new organization formed by Thrall, who was born on Azeroth & grew up in an internment camp. While there are 3 iterations of the Alliance: One formed to displace trolls from their ancestral lands by the literally "newer" races, then the association was moot until Stormwind tried invoking it when the Old Horde attacked, which none of the Kingdoms took seriously. The Alliance was reformed when the Orcs attacked Lordaeron, then traveling to Draenor to stop the Old Horde, but really, the Burning Legion, who was actually running things. Then the WoW alliance is literally the members of the alliance who didn't want to go to Draenor, because Turalyon & Khadgar had this fun idea to sacrifice everyone who fought for them in an attempt to destroy the burning legion.

So I do feel like Turalyon & Alleria defecting from their own homelands because of an organization with the same name, for the sake of another organization that is also totally different, feels very villain-coded to me. Also very dumb-coded. And if its not villain-coded, its very bad-writing-coded.

[Varodoc]

Then you should be happy because Metzen is back. BTW this is an actual line he wrote for Alleria, referring to Orcs, Metzen's pet race:

Is she wrong?

Simple Question, Simple Answer: Yes or No?

Nor does it feel like the Alliance & Horde of the first 2 games, because it ostensibly isn't. The Horde formed in Warcraft is an entirely new organization formed by Thrall, who was born on Azeroth & grew up in an internment camp. While there are 3 iterations of the Alliance: One formed to displace trolls from their ancestral lands by the literally "newer" races, then the association was moot until Stormwind tried invoking it when the Old Horde attacked, which none of the Kingdoms took seriously. The Alliance was reformed when the Orcs attacked Lordaeron, then traveling to Draenor to stop the Old Horde, but really, the Burning Legion, who was actually running things. Then the WoW alliance is literally the members of the alliance who didn't want to go to Draenor, because Turalyon & Khadgar had this fun idea to sacrifice everyone who fought for them in an attempt to destroy the burning legion.

Pretty much everything about this post is ridiculous headcanon.

[Dracullus]

*looking at this week post and quality of this thread in dead season* yeah, see ya next week guys xD.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Then you should be happy because Metzen is back. BTW this is an actual line he wrote for Alleria, referring to Orcs, Metzen's pet race:

This is a line from beyond the dark portal which was written by Aaron S. Rosenberg and golden, not metzen.

[Makabreska]

*looking at this week post and quality of this thread in dead season* yeah, see ya next week guys xD.

Ey mon. It is highly entertaining watching die-hard, mental gymnastics faction gold medallists "discussing" story and lore.

[Marlamin]

Ey mon. It is highly entertaining watching die-hard, mental gymnastics faction gold medallists "discussing" story and lore.

I too love it when people chronically mistake this thread for a lore-focused thread.

[allegrian]

Then you should be happy because Metzen is back. BTW this is an actual line he wrote for Alleria, referring to Orcs, Metzen's pet race:

Nor does it feel like the Alliance & Horde of the first 2 games, because it ostensibly isn't. The Horde formed in Warcraft 3 is an entirely new organization formed by Thrall, who was born on Azeroth & grew up in an internment camp. While there are 3 iterations of the Alliance: One formed to displace trolls from their ancestral lands by the literally "newer" races, then the association was moot until Stormwind tried invoking it when the Old Horde attacked, which none of the Kingdoms took seriously. The Alliance was reformed when the Orcs attacked Lordaeron, then traveling to Draenor to stop the Old Horde, but really, the Burning Legion, who was actually running things. Then the WoW alliance is literally the members of the alliance who didn't want to go to Draenor, because Turalyon & Khadgar had this fun idea to sacrifice everyone who fought for them in an attempt to destroy the burning legion.

So I do feel like Turalyon & Alleria defecting from their own homelands because of an organization with the same name, for the sake of another organization that is also totally different, feels very villain-coded to me. Also very dumb-coded. And if its not villain-coded, its very bad-writing-coded.

So you're saying that Alleria should have joined the blood elves (which she isn't, she skipped the whole blood phase) and Turalyion should have joined the Forsaken just because he was from Lordaeron originally?Just after Sylvannas, his wife's undead sister, became the new wow villain? Lol.

What's inconsistent is neutral characters like Khadgar not joining the war against Sylvannas when she clearly proved to be a world wide threat to all living races. If it had been a new villain unrelated to playable races/factions, it would have been the case, just like Fyrakk, who was also trying to burn a world tree.

[Ersula]

Pretty much everything about this post is ridiculous headcanon.

"the Alliance was created to defend its kingdoms against outside threats"

Varodoc, 16,000 years ago the Trolls destroyed the Aqir Empire, which spans from pre-sundering Silithus to Zul'aman, which means overthrowing both seats of Old God Power, while human beings, elves, dwarves & gnomes didn't exist until much later. There's no such thing as an ancestral homeland for the Alliance races.

The entire concept of the Alliance is based on a colonialist lie. Trolls were their only competition & they had no other enemies so what was the purpose of said "alliance."

So you're saying that Alleria should have joined the blood elves (which she isn't, she skipped the whole blood phase) and Turalyion should have joined the Forsaken just because he was from Lordaeron originally?Just after Sylvannas, his wife's undead sister, became the new wow villain? Lol.

What's inconsistent is neutral characters like Khadgar not joining the war against Sylvannas when she clearly proved to be a world wide threat to all living races. If it had been a new villain unrelated to playable races/factions, it would have been the case, just like Fyrakk, who was also trying to burn a world tree.

Sylvanas wasn't a villain when Alleria returned to Azeroth. What do you mean "blood phase?" The elves of Silvermoon literally just changed their names when the Alliance didn't help them after the sacking of Silvermoon. Kael'thas was doing some nefarious stuff but he wasn't doing it in Silvermoon.

[allegrian]

"the Alliance was created to defend its kingdoms against outside threats"

Varodoc, 16,000 years ago the Trolls destroyed the Aqir Empire, which spans from pre-sundering Silithus to Zul'aman, which means overthrowing both seats of Old God Power, while human beings, elves, dwarves & gnomes didn't exist until much later. There's no such thing as an ancestral homeland for the Alliance races.

The entire concept of the Alliance is based on a colonialist lie. Trolls were their only competition & they had no other enemies so what was the purpose of said "alliance."Sylvanas wasn't a villain when Alleria returned to Azeroth. What do you mean "blood phase?" The elves of Silvermoon literally just changed their names when the Alliance didn't help them after the sacking of Silvermoon. Kael'thas was doing some nefarious stuff but he wasn't doing it in Silvermoon.

Alleria and turalyon returned just after Legion and when Sylvannas was starting the war. Also Alleria had her living and not insane sister in the Alliance. Having either of them siding with the horde makes no sense no matter how you try to spin it.

[Makabreska]

Alleria and turalyon returned just after Legion and when Sylvannas was starting the war. Also Alleria had her living and not insane sister in the Alliance. Having either of them siding with the horde makes no sense no matter how you try to spin it.

Keep in mind you are trying to reason with the guy who once said "It's ok Teldrassil burned, these nelves lived long enough anyway". AKA, futile.

[Viridiel]

I imagine we're still on the path toward Velen's prophecy about the Light vs Void war, but it's going to be changed when Yrel shows up with the Army of Light. The "true" future that the Light can see is probably timeline specific since timelines are an Order thing, so crashing two timelines together probably breaks the Light's ability to see the true future.

It'd be good to take Velen down a peg. I know he's an ancient, possibly immortal member of the most powerful race in the universe and personal prophet of angels of Light, but he doesn't have to be so annoying about it. The draenei's dependence on him is really holding them back.

[HansOlo]

I imagine we're still on the path toward Velen's prophecy about the Light vs Void war, but it's going to be changed when Yrel shows up with the Army of Light. The "true" future that the Light can see is probably timeline specific since timelines are an Order thing, so crashing two timelines together probably breaks the Light's ability to see the true future.

It'd be good to take Velen down a peg. I know he's an ancient, possibly immortal member of the most powerful race in the universe and personal prophet of angels of Light, but he doesn't have to be so annoying about it. The draenei's dependence on him is really holding them back.

Can we take down Tyrande first(for same reasons)?