The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Varodoc]

I think Gazlowe and Hallowsfall points to TWW being three raids instead of two, but that is a good point. We don't know if we are getting three raids or not.

Could be straight from Nerubians to the World Soul/Uldaz.

I think SL/DF points to three raids/four seasons with DFs minor patch structure moving forward.

It will probably be Two raids.

It's no longer Vanilla, where you're forced into Raiding at max level. Now you can opt for Mythic+ or Delves instead. Raiding is no longer a priority, and the other modes are far more accessible.

From a story perspective, only Two raids are needed to sufficiently develop the storyline of each expansion.

Therefore, the final plan would look something like this:

- TWW Launch: Nerubian raid
- TWW Patch 1: Megadungeon, Nerubian allied race
- TWW Patch 2: Xal'atath raid

- Midnight Launch: Sunwell Plateau raid
- Midnight Patch 1: Megadungeon, Ethereal allied race
- Midnight Patch 2: K'aresh raid

- TLT Launch: Iridrikon raid
- TLT Patch 1: Megadungeon, Vrykul allied race
- TLT Patch 2: Ulduar raid

And my truest dream, my fondest dream, is to return to large, sprawling raids like SoO (14 bosses) and ToT/Hellfire Citadel (13 bosses). Give each raid 14 bosses (like SoO) and you get 28 bosses for the entire expansion, 2 more than Dragonflight.

[Cheezits]

I don't think Ethereals or Vrykul would be classified as ARs, but then again I don't think Nerubian fits that either. But they may just be rehauling the terminology for "any unlocked race" and all of them have to be unlocked through questing.

Then again I also think Ethereals would be a "on the box" race for Midnight and so they would just be a Race.

@Varodoc You didn't take into consideration that Earthen were a launch AR, they may do similar ones in future expansions.

[Varodoc]

I don't think Ethereals or Vrykul would be classified as ARs, but then again I don't think Nerubian fits that either. But they may just be rehauling the terminology for "any unlocked race" and all of them have to be unlocked through questing.

Then again I also think Ethereals would be a "on the box" race for Midnight and so they would just be a Race.

@Varodoc You didn't take into consideration that Earthen were a launch AR, they may do similar ones in future expansions.

Only if the story aligns with it.

I suppose Midnight could bring in a Forest Troll allied race and TLT a Tuskar allied race at some point, but only if it is logical with the story.

For Midnight, you could have Forest Trolls at Launch as a new race after you help clear out Zul Aman from the Void.

For Nerubians, the story aligns perfectly. The first raid will be the liberation of the Nerubians from Xal'atath; followed-up by Nerubians joining the two factions in gratitude. The story aligns, that is why a Nerubian race makes sense.

[huth]

I don't think Ethereals or Vrykul would be classified as ARs, but then again I don't think Nerubian fits that either. But they may just be rehauling the terminology for "any unlocked race" and all of them have to be unlocked through questing.

That's not a rehaul. That's not even a change.

[Kathranis]

It would make more sense to say that the original place of Nazjatar got turned into Khaz Algar since it looks like a fissure on that map.

Any way you shake it, Khaz Algar is a new addition to Azeroth's geography. It may have derived from some early plans to have Ulduar as a continent south of Kalimdor, but Khaz Algar really isn't a continent, so I wouldn't jump to that conclusion.

More likely its location was chosen because it would exist on the route the Arathi took to reach the Veiled Sea, which would have had to pass the southern tip of Kalimdor, where they eventually settled on Avaloren.

Obviously this is all only implied so far, but at Blizzcon they said that the Arathi of Hallowfall are just a splinter group of a faction of Arathi that founded a new kingdom across the sea who were drawn by a prophetic vision of the crystal.

(Anne Stickney interview quote: "And there was a group of them who left and they spawned their own kingdom across the sea. These guys are a splintered group from that kingdom that received a vision about a falling star, and it took them to Harrowfall.")


As for Nazjatar, it was originally planned to be built on the edge of the Rift--what remained of the Well of Eternity--which was to be located directly beneath the Eye of the Maelstrom. That was the plan at least as late as 2006, as illustrated in the Lands of Mystery RPG sourcebook that also presented what would become the final zone layout for Northrend for the first time.



The Rift was almost certainly planned to be the setting for an underwater expansion in those early days, but the idea was scrapped as they developed Cataclysm and changed the Maelstrom into a portal to Deepholm and the location for the final battle with Deathwing, then later built it out as the Earthen Ring base.

[huth]

You act like I'm trying to say that anarchy is the only definition of Disorder, when that's in fact not what I'm tryna say.

No, i'm acting like you're saying disorder is the only definition of anarchy. Which you do.

[Ersula]

Vrykuls become available as new race and their scenario starts with Odyn, eventually ending up with Tyr similar to the Lich king DK scenario.

Now that you mention it Valkyr would be a very cool hero class, who can change back & forth from their winged ethereal form. I'd rather have that.

Wrong. It's a state where there is no government. That's it. Disorder is optional. International relations are anarchic.

If you would look at the works of anarchist philosopher Emma Goldman, an anarchist government wouldn't so much be a government with no laws, but a government that is extremely limited. The primary difference between anarchist philosophy from republican or libertarian philosophy is that an anarchist model would also limit the extent in which the state can use violence as well. Libertarians assert these same values, their philosophy fails to recognize that capitalists will ultimately use capital to replace the government & state with plutocracy.

[Scyth]

Iridikron raid that involves Azjol Nerub feels inevitable. Team up with the Nerubians there to go through "long lost forgotten tunnels" to make our way to Harrowsdeep. Stoneform Nerubians maybe.

I can't shake the feeling that Iridikron's fight will be in Ulduar, though. He's for sure going to kill at least one Titan.

Oh that's a good shout actually, definitely possible to see him together with the Nerubians.
I also don't think we will fight him in Harrowsdeep though. Pretty sure he will go out and murder a Titan or two and we will fight him somewhere else.

[Nibelheimy]

If I'm honest, I believe the last titan is going to start with Iridikron murdering all of the Pantheon save 1, (presumably Sargeras) I'd let him have his Thanos moment, and then chill out in his cave all expansion. I'd set him up as an incredibly difficult 1 boss raid that is present throughout the entire expansion. At launch, it may be too difficult for any group to complete. I'm talking literally tune him to the same difficulty as a mythic raid end of expansion boss. Maybe a handful of guilds would be able to down him on or just after launch after a lot of play. This raid is there, make your group and go in, and he will absolutely decimate you. But, make an incredibly cool mage tower styled reward for downing him (maybe a set of armour and weapons for every type matching his theming). Anybody could attempt it at any point in the expansion, chances are you won't win. As the expansion progresses, your group may have more of a shot at beating him, edging closer and closer as it progresses, maybe every time you fly past his lair he'll laugh at you and taunt you for your failed attempts, maybe he'll comment on your different achievements throughout the expansion and suggest you're still not good enough to beat him.

Its something a little different, but something would be worth a shot to try for fun. Presumably as the expansion hits its final part of the patch cycle everybody would have a more reasonable shot at taking him on and getting the rewards. But it would be funny to have him there and free to challenge, but you're just not strong enough (unless you're really really good)

[Ersula]

"Anarchist government that's very limited"

That's not anarchy then. Anarchy is the complete absence of government. No laws, etc. It is a form of Disorder that occurs. It's not the only form of Disorder, but it is a common type of it.

I didn't just make up Emma Goldman & the entirety of anarchist philosophy. It's a little more complicated than "no laws."

Disorder CAN have a Pantheon, but said Pantheon could just lack any form of governing presence that the other forces have, and that's okay. Would also explain why Sargeras wasn't as scared of them compared to the Void Lords, etc, assuming a Disorder Pantheon exists of course.

Why would they have a pantheon at all then. A pantheon is a ruling body. The existence of which is synonymous with authority & lawfulness; the opposite of discord.

[doledippers]

max from liquid just mentioned on stream that he knows what is "coming before fated" so, assumedly he means 10.2.6? wonder if that means streamers will be involved, or if someone he knows at blizzard just gave him the scoop

[milkmustache]

max from liquid just mentioned on stream that he knows what is "coming before fated" so, assumedly he means 10.2.6? wonder if that means streamers will be involved, or if someone he knows at blizzard just gave him the scoop

IIRC there is a streamer event tied to 10.2.6. Unconfirmed heresay, but there's been buzzings about it. One streamer said he knows of it, but was not invited by Blizzard because of his usage of profanity in stream. There was someone talking about it quite a few pages back in this thread.

EDIT: Also, Cataclysm Beta string just got an update, looks ready to start soon. On the classic roadmap it's placed pretty much inbetween where 10.2.6 and TWW Alpha are on the retail roadmap. Take from that what you will

[Underbottom]

Why do people think we're only getting two raids? The 18 month cycle just means 3 "Dead" months at the end of the expansion instead of the old 9+.

[Enrif]

Why do people think we're only getting two raids? The 18 month cycle just means 3 "Dead" months at the end of the expansion instead of the old 9+.

I don't know.

Classic had 8 raids
TBC had 9 raids
WotLK had 6 raids (+1 behind PvP, +2 old raids reused)
Cata had 5 raids (+1 behind PvP)
MoP had 5 raids
WoD had 3 raids
Legion had 5 raids
BfA had 5 raids
SL had 3 raids
DF had 3 raids

Over time blizzard reduced the number of raids, but not below 3. And even those with more than 3 raids, had often small 1-3 boss raids, or their tier was split between different raid instances. And of course the half raids (UBRS, Kara, Zul Gurub, Zul Aman)

Personally, i don't raid and dont' see fewer raids as a bad thing. As this gives the team more time to work on other things.

[Kathranis]

Is Anarchy not disorderly in nature? Never seen anarchy occur in an orderly fashion.

Disorder CAN have a Pantheon, but said Pantheon could just lack any form of governing presence that the other forces have, and that's okay. Would also explain why Sargeras wasn't as scared of them compared to the Void Lords, etc, assuming a Disorder Pantheon exists of course.

Depends on the context. Anarchy is often used colloquially as a synonym for lawlessness, chaos, bedlam, mayhem, etc., in a confused, destructive, or dangerous sense.

But in a purely literal or political sense, anarchy simply means without authority, without rulers, or without (unjustified) hierarchies.

Disorder just means "without order." Chaos, depending on context, generally means random or unpredictable.

None of these things are strictly synonymous. And organization can arise from chaos without any particular intent or authority driving it. For example, particles of dust moving randomly can be swept into a sandstorm and then disperse purely by random chance.

Pantheon also just means "a group of important individuals" or "a group of all the gods in a religion." It doesn't mean a "government" and even if it did, there is no requirement for a force of disorder to have an anarchic government. The American government for example is highly disordered and is a far cry from an anarchy.

If you did want to portray a Pantheon of Disorder as being truly anarchic, it would simply mean that it has a completely flat organization structure. The Pantheon wouldn't rule over subjects and wouldn't impose laws or use coercion, rather employing suggestion and persuasion. It would simply operate as a group of individuals where no one member has authority over any other, group actions would be decided collectively, and participation would be voluntary.

So for example, an anarchic Pantheon of Disorder would likely be a group of extremely powerful demon gods, but unlike Sargeras who imposed order on the Burning Legion, they would simply attract other lesser demons to their legion and would spread mayhem and destruction with no greater ambition than to destroy. Its members would come and go freely with no enforced fealty or directives beyond acting on their impulses.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

IIRC there is a streamer event tied to 10.2.6. Unconfirmed heresay, but there's been buzzings about it. One streamer said he knows of it, but was not invited by Blizzard because of his usage of profanity in stream. There was someone talking about it quite a few pages back in this thread.

Can't wait for "Use a gift sub button and give new subs to at least 2 people to unlock special clue in the secret treasure hunt!". s

[Woggmer]

I don't know.

Classic had 8 raids
TBC had 9 raids
WotLK had 6 raids (+1 behind PvP, +2 old raids reused)
Cata had 5 raids (+1 behind PvP)
MoP had 5 raids
WoD had 3 raids
Legion had 5 raids
BfA had 5 raids
SL had 3 raids
DF had 3 raids

Over time blizzard reduced the number of raids, but not below 3. And even those with more than 3 raids, had often small 1-3 boss raids, or their tier was split between different raid instances. And of course the half raids (UBRS, Kara, Zul Gurub, Zul Aman)

Personally, i don't raid and dont' see fewer raids as a bad thing. As this gives the team more time to work on other things.

Cases with like TBC, Wrath, and Cata they stopped doing World Bosses entirely and instead had "world bosses" in instanced areas. They stopped doing that in MoP when they brought back World Bosses.

It wasn't until WoD where they moved raids to be more like Seasons.. Season 1 being Raid 1# and then Raid 2# for Season 2 and so on. When they include additional raids in the same season (like Trial of Valor with the Nightspire, Crucible of the Storms with Battle for Dazar'alor) it leads to the complications of the loot tables.. where you have to pick between one raid or the other depending on the loot you want.

When MoP did the same thing it was more like Mogu'shan Vaults > Heroic Mogu'shan Vaults = Heart of Fear = Terrace of Endless Springs. (The later options dropping weapons that had a special socket for a legendary Sha gem you would get from the legendary cloak quest.) The armor pieces were the same aside from tier sets which you had to farm for valor to get from the vendor, with the only reason to do the different raids was to increase your chances at armor or trying to get a specific weapon and none of the bosses dropped any trinkets, it was totally RNG from the mobs themselves or from a vendor.

I can imagine that they moved away from this because of the complications and confusion it would cause for people trying to get specific gear or disappointment if the boss doesn't drop something that would actually benefit you.. like you've got a boss that drops armor but not good weapon drops.. or a boss that drops good weapons with skills to them but has no trinket drops.

I know my explanation of it seems very confusing, which is probably the exact reason why Blizzard doesn't do this anymore.. plus with Mythic+ giving more loot options like trinkets, weapons, necklaces and rings, there's almost no point to include more raids unless they want to make something very specific. Whereas with Raids all you need to do is get the tier set drops or a specific weapon/trinket drop.

[Enrif]

Cases with like TBC, Wrath, and Cata they stopped doing World Bosses entirely and instead had "world bosses" in instanced areas. They stopped doing that in MoP when they brought back World Bosses.

It wasn't until WoD where they moved raids to be more like Seasons.. Season 1 being Raid 1# and then Raid 2# for Season 2 and so on. When they include additional raids in the same season (like Trial of Valor with the Nightspire, Crucible of the Storms with Battle for Dazar'alor) it leads to the complications of the loot tables.. where you have to pick between one raid or the other depending on the loot you want.

When MoP did the same thing it was more like Mogu'shan Vaults > Heroic Mogu'shan Vaults = Heart of Fear = Terrace of Endless Springs. (The later options dropping weapons that had a special socket for a legendary Sha gem you would get from the legendary cloak quest.) The armor pieces were the same aside from tier sets which you had to farm for valor to get from the vendor, with the only reason to do the different raids was to increase your chances at armor or trying to get a specific weapon and none of the bosses dropped any trinkets, it was totally RNG from the mobs themselves or from a vendor.

I can imagine that they moved away from this because of the complications and confusion it would cause for people trying to get specific gear or disappointment if the boss doesn't drop something that would actually benefit you.. like you've got a boss that drops armor but not good weapon drops.. or a boss that drops good weapons with skills to them but has no trinket drops.

I know my explanation of it seems very confusing, which is probably the exact reason why Blizzard doesn't do this anymore.. plus with Mythic+ giving more loot options like trinkets, weapons, necklaces and rings, there's almost no point to include more raids unless they want to make something very specific. Whereas with Raids all you need to do is get the tier set drops or a specific weapon/trinket drop.

I think it is understandable enough.

I would also include Mega-Dungeons as a replacement for the half raids. They are kind of functionally close to a raid, but with smaller player count and the ability to turn it into two dungeons later on.

I think, aside from the confusion, Blizzard realized that Raids are not that good at return for the time and money invested in them.

We can see this also with Delves for TWW. Delves can be done solo or with a small group. And M+ was the biggest shakeup for WoW in forever, while myhtic raids was just more of the same, just a bit harder.

So, i wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard will reduce raids going forward. Two raids, plus two mega dungeons plus dungeons and delves is a far better proposition for many players, compared to a Raid focused design anyway.

[Woggmer]

I think it is understandable enough.

I would also include Mega-Dungeons as a replacement for the half raids. They are kind of functionally close to a raid, but with smaller player count and the ability to turn it into two dungeons later on.

I think, aside from the confusion, Blizzard realized that Raids are not that good at return for the time and money invested in them.

We can see this also with Delves for TWW. Delves can be done solo or with a small group. And M+ was the biggest shakeup for WoW in forever, while myhtic raids was just more of the same, just a bit harder.

So, i wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard will reduce raids going forward. Two raids, plus two mega dungeons plus dungeons and delves is a far better proposition for many players, compared to a Raid focused design anyway.

And don't forget the Catalyst, which means you could heroic tier sets just by trading in your high level gear.

That said, if they do want to bring back multiple smaller raids, the best bet is to have them be in Fated Raid style difficulty, where they all are at the same difficulty and the same ilvl loot tables, but they offer different experiences and fights. Like if you're not confident with a specific raid, you could try with a different one. (The downside to this is that Blizzard would need to split raids up into smaller boss line ups.. like below 6+ bosses.)

My other suggestion being something simple, we start off with a bunch of smaller raids (like 3-5 bosses), but as we get patches and new raids.. the amount of bosses just increases with each new raid.. like X.1's raid is 6-7 bosses while X.2's raid is 7-8 bosses and the penultimate raid having the most bosses.

As for Mega Dungeons.. I don't think they should continue them and instead just make them into raids since that's basically what they are.

[Enrif]

My other suggestion being something simple, we start off with a bunch of smaller raids (like 3-5 bosses), but as we get patches and new raids.. the amount of bosses just increases with each new raid.. like X.1's raid is 6-7 bosses while X.2's raid is 7-8 bosses and the penultimate raid having the most bosses.

As for Mega Dungeons.. I don't think they should continue them and instead just make them into raids since that's basically what they are.

I would disagree here. Starting with lover boss count raids and getting more later on wouldn't change much. Also splitting raids into multiple smaller ones are more of a hassle than rewarding, as the bosses on both sides would ramp up faster compared to a single raid with the same amount as those splits. Now, if no difficulty progression inside the raid is wanted, but all the bosses from the first to the last are about the same in difficulty and gear requirements, sure, then it can be done. But in a world where the later bosses in a raid are more difficult, it wouldn't work great with small raids.

I think Mega-Dungeons are among the better things that blizzard added. People just don't want the hassle of 10+ people, when you can get the same boss encounters and story experience with just 5. And it feeds itself into the dungeon system, where raids are mostly a seasonal thing and are left when the next seasonal patch drops to get ready for the next one.