The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Woggmer]

I think it is understandable enough.

I would also include Mega-Dungeons as a replacement for the half raids. They are kind of functionally close to a raid, but with smaller player count and the ability to turn it into two dungeons later on.

I think, aside from the confusion, Blizzard realized that Raids are not that good at return for the time and money invested in them.

We can see this also with Delves for TWW. Delves can be done solo or with a small group. And M+ was the biggest shakeup for WoW in forever, while myhtic raids was just more of the same, just a bit harder.

So, i wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard will reduce raids going forward. Two raids, plus two mega dungeons plus dungeons and delves is a far better proposition for many players, compared to a Raid focused design anyway.

And don't forget the Catalyst, which means you could heroic tier sets just by trading in your high level gear.

That said, if they do want to bring back multiple smaller raids, the best bet is to have them be in Fated Raid style difficulty, where they all are at the same difficulty and the same ilvl loot tables, but they offer different experiences and fights. Like if you're not confident with a specific raid, you could try with a different one. (The downside to this is that Blizzard would need to split raids up into smaller boss line ups.. like below 6+ bosses.)

My other suggestion being something simple, we start off with a bunch of smaller raids (like 3-5 bosses), but as we get patches and new raids.. the amount of bosses just increases with each new raid.. like X.1's raid is 6-7 bosses while X.2's raid is 7-8 bosses and the penultimate raid having the most bosses.

As for Mega Dungeons.. I don't think they should continue them and instead just make them into raids since that's basically what they are.

[Enrif]

My other suggestion being something simple, we start off with a bunch of smaller raids (like 3-5 bosses), but as we get patches and new raids.. the amount of bosses just increases with each new raid.. like X.1's raid is 6-7 bosses while X.2's raid is 7-8 bosses and the penultimate raid having the most bosses.

As for Mega Dungeons.. I don't think they should continue them and instead just make them into raids since that's basically what they are.

I would disagree here. Starting with lover boss count raids and getting more later on wouldn't change much. Also splitting raids into multiple smaller ones are more of a hassle than rewarding, as the bosses on both sides would ramp up faster compared to a single raid with the same amount as those splits. Now, if no difficulty progression inside the raid is wanted, but all the bosses from the first to the last are about the same in difficulty and gear requirements, sure, then it can be done. But in a world where the later bosses in a raid are more difficult, it wouldn't work great with small raids.

I think Mega-Dungeons are among the better things that blizzard added. People just don't want the hassle of 10+ people, when you can get the same boss encounters and story experience with just 5. And it feeds itself into the dungeon system, where raids are mostly a seasonal thing and are left when the next seasonal patch drops to get ready for the next one.

[Varodoc]

Why do people think we're only getting two raids? The 18 month cycle just means 3 "Dead" months at the end of the expansion instead of the old 9+.

Because it makes sense.

Raiding has been slowly supplanted by Mythic+ for years, and Delves represent an additional alternative to Raiding. It is an outdated game mode.

What makes it all the more logical is that the main story can be perfectly told through two raids.

In the TWW, the first raid is about the liberation of the Nerubians from Xal'atath, and it makes sense to follow it up right away with just the final raid with Xal'atath.

Why include an Undermine raid? What does an interim raid add to the story? Does the story need a third raid to be told? Did Dragonflight need Aberrus? Is Xal'atath on vacation while you raid in undermine?

[Woggmer]

I would disagree here. Starting with lover boss count raids and getting more later on wouldn't change much. Also splitting raids into multiple smaller ones are more of a hassle than rewarding, as the bosses on both sides would ramp up faster compared to a single raid with the same amount as those splits. Now, if no difficulty progression inside the raid is wanted, but all the bosses from the first to the last are about the same in difficulty and gear requirements, sure, then it can be done. But in a world where the later bosses in a raid are more difficult, it wouldn't work great with small raids.

I think Mega-Dungeons are among the better things that blizzard added. People just don't want the hassle of 10+ people, when you can get the same boss encounters and story experience with just 5. And it feeds itself into the dungeon system, where raids are mostly a seasonal thing and are left when the next seasonal patch drops to get ready for the next one.

Fair, but at the same time they can only do this so many times that eventually people will notice the repetition and will already predict what's coming (like what's going on now because they keep using the same outline).

And I don't think it is just the accessibility of Mythic+ but that the rewards are the same if not better than the raids because people can get access to a larger loot pool and get more options especially from the Great Vault while with raids whatever you see in the loot table for the raid is what you'll get. If Blizzard changed the ilvl of Mythic+ gear to be much less than what is provided from Heroic/Mythic raiding then people will opt more for raiding and it would pretty much kill Mythic+.

[Enrif]

Fair, but at the same time they can only do this so many times that eventually people will notice the repetition and will already predict what's coming (like what's going on now because they keep using the same outline).

Would this be bad? FF14 has a very predictable content flow. And having that reassurance that content is not "up in the air", but follows a steady cadence can be helpfull.

And I don't think it is just the accessibility of Mythic+ but that the rewards are the same if not better than the raids because people can get access to a larger loot pool and get more options especially from the Great Vault while with raids whatever you see in the loot table for the raid is what you'll get. If Blizzard changed the ilvl of Mythic+ gear to be much less than what is provided from Heroic/Mythic raiding then people will opt more for raiding and it would pretty much kill Mythic+.

We will see how heroic level gear in delves will work out. But i can tell you, there are enough people who wouldn't raid, even if it has the best gear available. That carrot has simply no pull anymore in a world, where every major patch gets you catch up gear that is on par with raid gear. The higher item level from raids only matters for raiders, and only while the raid is fresh.

[Cherry123]

If there is no announcement next week, it means they are way behind schedule.

[Marlamin]

If there is no announcement next week, it means they are way behind schedule.

They're still perfectly on schedule, it just feels like they're not because there's been no PTR/previews. We're currently in the 8th week (I think?) after the last patch and DF patches have taken anywhere from 6 to 10 weeks to release. I don't think they really need to announce it a week before either.

[Valysar]

Well, they said march so we're still in time

[Murlocos]

Next week is still a possibility IMO. The Hearthstone anniversary only being a week long makes me think it'll be more something you can quickly grab all the rewards in and then can mess around if you really want to, that wouldn't conflict with 10.2.6 much. If it's random drops, people are going to be pretty upset with how short the event is. That said, the 19th is still the safest bet.

[Usagi Senshi]

Would this be bad? FF14 has a very predictable content flow. And having that reassurance that content is not "up in the air", but follows a steady cadence can be helpfull.



We will see how heroic level gear in delves will work out. But i can tell you, there are enough people who wouldn't raid, even if it has the best gear available. That carrot has simply no pull anymore in a world, where every major patch gets you catch up gear that is on par with raid gear. The higher item level from raids only matters for raiders, and only while the raid is fresh.

Getting heroic level gear out of delves (I would assume it's 1-2 pieces a week) works out just fine for someone like me that will not form too many social ties with people ever again after multiple fall outs and 10 years of raiding.

I'll be going hard on two characters with pvp and thats it, and the rest with world content/etc. Good enough!

[Skildar]

the thing I don't like with delves being part of the weekly chests is that it has to have a conversion rate to what "fun" is as activities in delves aren't supposed to be focused on player power itself. And we already know how weak the conversion is between raids and dungeons when both are all baout player power

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Why do people think we're only getting two raids? The 18 month cycle just means 3 "Dead" months at the end of the expansion instead of the old 9+.

Because Ion said that the SL/DF cadence of 2 Major/7 Minor is the new cadence and the fact the entirety of the executive team and down the trajectory has been vague to make sure that most people let this go through without anyone bitching.

They do not want to answer this question about Major Patches because they know we won't like the answer.

People who were at Blizzcon have parroted the "18 months" thing who met executives at Blizzcon.

Now contrast this with the story focus being the main PR beat to the audience + Metzen + 3 Expansions (meaning there's no "Oopsie, sorry. We fucked up Teehee") and you know you're in trouble.

The franchise nihilism is already pretty settled so playing this "De-budgeting" smoke screen game while pushing a story focus on the player audience is a very dangerous game to play.

Obviously, I preface all of this with the fact that there's still the Alpha Embargo Interviews and Beta Embargo Interviews where Ion can respond in an honest manner what the content output going forward will be but I am not exactly holding my breath based on what transpired in the interviews at Blizzcon.

Basically, Microsoft copium is the only thing here to change the trajectory of the franchise in the current. But, I really doubt it considering everything.

The core idea behind that cope is that the events of Blizzcon and the focus on Short Term logic centered on 18 month live development timelines and 2 Major Patches was mandated by the previous management in ABK.

Now that we've now entered Microsoft management which will have longer term goals for World of Warcraft as a franchise. Obviously, do I really believe it until Ion starts speaking in more Pro-Long Term viewpoints in the Alpha/Beta interviews? Not really.


Just my two cents on the current chaos situation, it is very unclear until the Interviews what is going on as people are panicking I think justified based on the fact the Dev Team and Executive Team at Blizzcon did not want to be honest with their consumers.

Disclaimer #1: I also want to point out, I'm honestly only really upset that they found the one PR beat they should not brought out as the main marketing beat for this entire 3 expansion if they decided to cut major patches and development timelines. It is so anathema to the concept of a story focus as it can possibly be.

Disclaimer #2: I am totally fine with the 2 Major/7 Minor as a customer at this point (if there is no growth, then there is no growth), just disappointed they chose a story focus when they decided to downgrade content output and development timelines as I stated it is complete anathema to their main marketing PR Beat and it will end in disaster because of it when they could've focused on Gameplay/Game Content instead.

[Lady Atia]

Because Ion said that the SL/DF cadence of 2 Major/7 Minor is the new cadence and the fact the entirety of the executive team and down the trajectory has been vague to make sure that most people let this go through without anyone bitching.

They do not want to answer this question about Major Patches because they know we won't like the answer.

People who were at Blizzcon have parroted the "18 months" thing who met executives at Blizzcon.

Now contrast this with the story focus being the main PR beat to the audience + Metzen + 3 Expansions (meaning there's no "Oopsie, sorry. We fucked up Teehee") and you know you're in trouble.

The franchise nihilism is already pretty settled so playing this "De-budgeting" smoke screen game while pushing a story focus on the player audience is a very dangerous game to play.

Obviously, I preface all of this with the fact that there's still the Alpha Embargo Interviews and Beta Embargo Interviews where Ion can respond in an honest manner what the content output going forward will be but I am not exactly holding my breath based on what transpired in the interviews at Blizzcon.

Basically, Microsoft copium is the only thing here to change the trajectory of the franchise in the current. But, I really doubt it considering everything.

The core idea behind that cope is that the events of Blizzcon and the focus on Short Term logic centered on 18 month live development timelines and 2 Major Patches was mandated by the previous management in ABK.

Now that we've now entered Microsoft management which will have longer term goals for World of Warcraft as a franchise. Obviously, do I really believe it until Ion starts speaking in more Pro-Long Term viewpoints in the Alpha/Beta interviews? Not really.


Just my two cents on the current chaos situation, it is very unclear until the Interviews what is going on as people are panicking I think justified based on the fact the Dev Team and Executive Team at Blizzcon did not want to be honest with their consumers.

I also want to point out, I'm honestly only really upset that they found the one PR beat they should not brought out as the main marketing beat for this entire 3 expansion if they decided to cut major patches and development timelines. It is so anathema to the concept of a story focus as it can possibly be.

Disclaimer: I am totally fine with the 2 Major/7 Minor as a customer at this point (if there is no growth, then there is no growth), just disappointed they chose a story focus when they decided to downgrade content output and development timelines as I stated it is complete anathema to their main marketing PR Beat and it will end in disaster because of it when they could've focused on Gameplay/Game Content instead.

?? 18 months for an expansion is perfect, especially if they keep the content cadence up. Increasing the months of an expansion again wouldn't give you more content, just longer content draughts.

[Dracullus]

snip

Seriously, get some fresh air.

In this whole stream of consciousness you even missed that guy you quoted obviously count launch tier (which is, you know, sane thing to do). So basically he asked "why you think we will get less raids than DF/SL?" and you answered with "because Ion said DF/SL cadence is here to stay".

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

?? 18 months for an expansion is perfect, especially if they keep the content cadence up. Increasing the months of an expansion again wouldn't give you more content, just longer content draughts.

Its a 18 month production schedule for the developers of the live game, it makes their jobs harder and lead to QC issues as they are squeezed harder by a reduction of 6 months in development time.

Also, you're missing the whole 3 Major Patch / 24 Months thing that was standard prior to SL (Cut & Run) / DF (Oopsie, Augment Rune added!). Obviously, you will just retort with "But what about Warlords of Draenor, reee". Nice list of expansions that clearly were received very well you have there though.

Again, I don't really care too much about this but I do find this whole drought argument a bit ridiculous as it still does not account for the removal of a raid tier forever.

Seriously, get some fresh air.

In this whole stream of consciousness you even missed that guy you quoted obviously count launch tier (which is, you know, sane thing to do). So basically he asked "why you think we will get less raids than DF/SL?" and you answered with "because Ion said DF/SL cadence is here to stay".

I mean, there was more context than just that. Now obviously, I misread that but he also genuinely asked why and I gave a clear answer as to why other people think this way so ehh I still find the dishonesty pretty funny from this whole argument. 3 Raids is still a reduction from 4 Raids. I get that this whole got'cha is pretty simple to keep hooking people into though.

There is a clear reduction in content being presented to the consumer and I don't really get why people try to act confused when the reality is that the company has decided to sneakishly get out of the old historical cadence.

Do I believe they will actually reduce to 2 Raids? Who knows, I do not know what the executive team think about the franchise and those who hand over the budget for the game think. I'd say it is pretty improbable that they would do another Rugpull and end on 11.1 as it wouldn't reach the Year 2 Roadmap of The War Within so I think it is very unlikely in that regard. It will most likely be another 2 Major/7 Minor which I'm totally fine with.

[Varodoc]

Its a 18 month production schedule for the developers of the live game, it makes their jobs harder and lead to QC issues as they are squeezed harder by a reduction of 6 months in development time.

Also, you're missing the whole 3 Major Patch / 24 Months thing that was standard prior to SL (Cut & Run) / DF (Oopsie, Augment Rune added!). Obviously, you will just retort with "But what about Warlords of Draenor, reee". Nice list of expansions that clearly were received very well you have there though.

Again, I don't really care too much about this but I do find this whole drought argument stupid from the defensive side as it still does not account for the removal of a raid tier forever.



I mean, there was more context than just that. Now obviously, I misread that but ehh I still find the dishonesty pretty funny from this whole argument. 3 Raids is still a reduction from 4 Raids. I get that this whole got'cha is pretty simple to keep hooking people into though.

There is a clear reduction in content being presented to the consumer and I don't really get why people try to act confused when the reality is that the company has decided to sneakishly get out of the old historical cadence.

Do I believe they will actually reduce to 2 Raids? Who knows, I do not know what the executive team think about the franchise and those who hand over the budget for the game think.

Do you think that Raids are a sacred kind of content that is irreplaceable?

If 11.1 did not add a new raid, but added a Megadungeon, new Delves maps, and new allied races, do you think it would be less content for the average player than a new raid?

Why do you think that a patch needs to have a raid to have content, even though Raiding has been in steady decline for over a decade and is no longer the only avenue for Endgame PvE content?

Why are people so nostalgic of MoP, even though 2/4 of its patches did not add any new raid and simply focused on questlines and other PvE stuff?

[Lady Atia]

Its a 18 month production schedule for the developers of the live game, it makes their jobs harder and lead to QC issues as they are squeezed harder by a reduction of 6 months in development time.

Also, you're missing the whole 3 Major Patch / 24 Months thing that was standard prior to SL (Cut & Run) / DF (Oopsie, Augment Rune added!). Obviously, you will just retort with "But what about Warlords of Draenor, reee". Nice list of expansions that clearly were received very well you have there though.

Again, I don't really care too much about this but I do find this whole drought argument a bit ridiculous as it still does not account for the removal of a raid tier forever.



I mean, there was more context than just that. Now obviously, I misread that but he also genuinely asked why and I gave a clear answer as to why other people think this way so ehh I still find the dishonesty pretty funny from this whole argument. 3 Raids is still a reduction from 4 Raids. I get that this whole got'cha is pretty simple to keep hooking people into though.

There is a clear reduction in content being presented to the consumer and I don't really get why people try to act confused when the reality is that the company has decided to sneakishly get out of the old historical cadence.

Do I believe they will actually reduce to 2 Raids? Who knows, I do not know what the executive team think about the franchise and those who hand over the budget for the game think. I'd say it is pretty improbable that they would do another Rugpull and end on 11.1 as it wouldn't reach the Year 2 Roadmap of The War Within so I think it is very unlikely in that regard. It will most likely be another 2 Major/7 Minor which I'm totally fine with.

But the problem is, raids are not really what they should aim with the modern audience anyways anymore, and I say this as a cutting edge raider. We are lucky if we get 2-3 raids + fated, and I would rather have smaller raid tiers and quicker expansions with a new raid than another instance of ICC/DS/SOO/HFC drought from the "best expansions of the past".

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Do you think that Raids are a sacred kind of content that is irreplaceable?

If 11.1 did not add a new raid, but added a Megadungeon, new Delves maps, and new allied races, do you think it would be less content for the average player than a new raid?

Why do you think that a patch needs to have a raid to have content, even though Raiding has been in steady decline for over a decade and is no longer the only avenue for Endgame PvE content?

Well, raids have traditionally moved the story forward and I don't see how they will move the story forward without that. They're kind of necessary for the momentum from Start - Middle - Finish as seen with every successful expansion.

Regardless, I am going to get in a infinite loop of explaining why X/Y/Z content output is equivalent to lost raid tiers and I find the prospect of that pretty meaningless. This is as always just speculation and may change immediately upon the alpha embargo having Ion talking candidly about this issue and likely we're all sunshine and rainbows afterwards, anyways.

But the problem is, raids are not really what they should aim with the modern audience anyways anymore, and I say this as a cutting edge raider. We are lucky if we get 2-3 raids + fated, and I would rather have smaller raid tiers and quicker expansions with a new raid than another instance of ICC/DS/SOO/HFC drought from the "best expansions of the past".

I mean I don't really care about this as I outlined in my disclaimers, I've already given up on the story ever gaining quality and play the game for gameplay specific reasons only at this point.

I hate raiders too, by the way. So I'm not exactly going to bat for raiders. I'm just saying from a Lore/Narrative side having less raids will lead to less momentum for the story and I despise that as the game will be dragged through the mud for its main marketing beat being a complete failure due to self sabotage by internal decrease in budget and reduction of live game development months to get a faster box release for the remaining two expansions.

Fundamentally, I'm just frustrated that their marketing went for the one community (Lore/Narrative) that they unequivocally would never actually support properly as it does not fit the short term function of World of Warcraft profit incentives.

[Varodoc]

Well, raids have traditionally moved the story forward

Agreed, which is why I propose to cut down the filler and make raids only when they align with a major shake-up in the story and significant story development.

That is why I mentioned Aberrus. What storyline development did Aberrus have? It and its final boss are literal Nobodies that didn't impact the story in any meaningful way. They couldn't even be bothered to make an actual end cinematic for Sarkareth's defeat, the definition of filler.

and I don't see how they will move the story forward without that.

MoP did that twice. Yes, MoP, the beloved and nostalgic expansion of many people, the peak of 2010s WoW according to many people.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Patch_5.1.0

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Patch_5.3.0


MoP had four patches, but only two of them added Raids (and those two Raids were sprawling and huge). The other two patches pushed forward the storyline simply by adding new questlines (very long questlines with significant developments in the old world, as for instance the Revamped Barrens in 5.3) and new Scenarios.

Start - Middle - Finish as seen with every successful expansion.

Those expansions did not have Mythic+ and Delves.

What I'm saying is: Now that PvE endgame is not just Raiding anymore, why the "Middle" part needs to be a raid, instead of a new megadungeon and new Delves?

Regardless, I am going to get in a infinite loop of explaining why X/Y/Z content output is equivalent to lost raid tiers and I find the prospect of that pretty meaningless.

I will finish by saying that I would gladly and happily sacrifice Aberrus to get Housing.

[Lady Atia]

Agreed, which is why I propose to cut down the filler and make raids only when they align with a major shake-up in the story and significant story development.

That is why I mentioned Aberrus. What storyline development did Aberrus have? It and its final boss are literal Nobodies that didn't impact the story in any meaningful way. They couldn't even be bothered to make an actual end cinematic for Sarkareth's defeat, the definition of filler.



MoP did that twice. Yes, MoP, the beloved and nostalgic expansion of many people, the peak of 2010s WoW according to many people.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Patch_5.1.0

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Patch_5.3.0


MoP had four patches, but only two of them added Raids (and those two Raids were sprawling and huge). The other two patches pushed forward the storyline simply by adding new questlines (very long questlines with significant developments in the old world, as for instance the Revamped Barrens in 5.3) and new Scenarios.



Those expansions did not have Mythic+ and Delves.

What I'm saying is: Now that PvE endgame is not just Raiding anymore, why the "Middle" part needs to be a raid, instead of a new megadungeon and new Delves?



I will finish by saying that I would gladly and happily sacrifice Aberrus to get Housing.

Hard to agree with V but he has a point here - a megadungeon can EASILY replace a mid tier raid in terms of story development, which is actually something they already successfully did with both Shadowlands and Dragonflight.