The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Berkilak]

The analogy falls apart completely when you consider that those same orcs attempted genocide against said religious colonizers a scant few years earlier and a significant number of them allied with Satan and tried to destroy the planet.

Their pretence isn’t revenge. That’s fair game. Their pretence is forcible conversion and cultural assimilation. Once you take that route, you better take care. Especially if nuance isn’t your strong suit in your writing.

[Revamp Man]

Then why do they all have completely different names from the incarnates? Plus the journal says these drakes just got reanimated by Galakrond's Blight

But yeah I don't think Iridikron gets killed, we can barely even touch him during the fight after all.

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Btw checking things on the PTR and I am just so very tired of watching my character be used yet again to screw things up just so I can even get a chance to see the story. Do the devs have a shame fetish?

Also why would Morchie ride on an infinite dragon? She IS an infinite dragon. If you are going to give away that she is Infinite, it is far more dramatic for her to transform than to just show up with one. And they don't even give the poor drake a name before we kill them.

According to the journal he leaves
He could be trying to corrupt Tyr its definitely a possibility and those dragons might be the identities of the incarnates before they got whatever turned them into incarnates. The models are literally just the incarnates without extra stuff which is what makes me think this.

As for galakrond we only know that his body corrupts everything around it even while dead and the incarnates were his allies. His body was described somewhere as absorbing the traits of whatever he ate...imagine if we actually got
Galakrond Aspect of Death

[guro-tchai]

the "existing threat" the Crusade helps us with is the politically fragmented Scourge, privatized by random ex-officials; start with a campy Stratholme exterminatus blast, end with a new free undead faction.
and get us a new napalm-spitting Hellscream.

[Teriz]

I'm inclined to contest that Yrel is outwardly genocidal; if anything, she seems to be most interested in overseeing mass conversions, and we don't know whether or not those conversions entail any kind of cultural genocide or if the Orcs are otherwise maintaining their previously-existent social orders, tribal identities, and autonomy. It's entirely possible that the microcosm we're seeing isn't reflective of the overall situation, and that the Mag'har are somehow misrepresenting the nature of their conflict and the degree to which the conversions among other Orcs are a product of coercion. We also don't quite know the full story behind the current conflict on Draenor. Let's not forget that our primary source for anything that goes on there is Geya'rah, who is markedly stoked on Grom—the former overseer of a hyperexpansionist regime—to a perturbing degree. It's entirely possible that the Mag'har are more a group of fringe reactionaries than we've been led to believe, and that the Lightbound only became so aggressive after the Mag'har began attacking their missionaries for posing a perceived threat to them. Regardless of the specifics of the situation, I'm definitely not inclined to believe that Yrel has become an irredeemable villain, and that the only recourse for her malfeasance is in her demise.

It's certainly possible that the Orcs are exaggerating what Yrel is doing, and its also possible that their portrayal of what's happening on Draenor is accurate. If Yrel turns out to be an antagonist, I would prefer the more dramatic version of her being a religious zealot who prefers light dominance over the cultural and spiritual freedom of others. That would make her a more frightful villain, and would be a nice change of pace from the cop out we got with Sylvanas. Let her die for her beliefs, and let her impact be dramatic and long lasting on Azeroth and the factions. I think that would resonate far more with people over another lukewarm villain who we ended up forgiving in the end despite all the crap they caused.

[Palapop]

Nothing. She's just wearing armour.

and that armor made her lose her boobs and increase leg size by 100% ? nah.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

It would be an incredibly unwise move to minimize the culpability of religious colonizers enforcing the fantasy equivalent of the white man’s burden. It’s pretty clear what’s going on. And it’s pretty clear what real world events are being referenced. It would certainly be a take to say, “Well, actually, they did a lot to help the Orcs!”

I don't think this can be said to be precisely analogous to the White Man's Burden simply on account of that the Draenei seem not to be presenting a very paternalistic attitude towards the Orcs; they seem to fill all of the same positions interchangeably, and there exists at least one Orcish Exarch. Provided that the initial conversions appear to have been more a consented response to missionary work rather than the product of the later forced conversions, the environment in which the sequence of events began appears to have been one of religious and cultural integration between the Draenei and Orcs, rather than one of coercion. This isn't to come off as apologia for the expansionism and forced conversion the Draenei are now conducting so much as a suggestion that the situation may be more complex than "evil Draenei oppress innocent Orcs". I highly doubt either party is really very innocent; my realistic expectation would be that as the Draenei became increasingly obtrusive, the Mag'har became increasingly reactionary, and this enabled bad actors among the Draenei to be taken seriously when they suggested a more violent approach to the conversion project, morphing what was initially an undertaking of evangelism into something more coercive in nature. I think the sensible situation is that neither faction are the good guys, nor is either faction wholly unjustified.

Now, admittedly, I say this as someone who enjoys nuance, which does admittedly put me in a precarious position in making any kind of predictions. In terms of what Blizzard's writers would do, as opposed to what would be nuanced and realistic, I'm sure there's a fair shot they'll just boil it down to "looool evil Draenei!!! We FLIPPED THE SCRIPT WE'RE SO CREATIVE!!!!" with no further nuance to it.

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and that armor made her lose her boobs and increase leg size by 100% ? nah.

... I don't think you can typically see a woman's breasts through plate armor. If you could, it would probably be very light and ineffective armor.

[Ersula]

The analogy falls apart completely when you consider that those same orcs attempted genocide against said religious colonizers a scant few years earlier and a significant number of them allied with Satan and tried to destroy the planet.

If that counts as "the same orcs" then the Draenei are also culpable for everything the Eredar did. You're being a bit lackidasical about what affiliations count & which don't.

[huth]

... I don't think you can typically see a woman's breasts through plate armor. If you could, it would probably be very light and ineffective armor.

In proper armour (including helmet), you probably wouldn't even be able to discern the wearer's sex at all.

And making the legs look considerably larger is definitely not out of the ordinary for proper plate greaves.

[Ielenia]

Being a zealot is not the same thing as being a villain. We spent an entire expansion helping build Yrel up to be a leader to the draenei people that her Velen would be proud of, back in Warlords of Draenor. It's unfair to her character to claim she will be an expansion villain (or lieutenant) just because of one singular, brief quest line.

I mean, I fully believe that Blizzard is capable of doing that, considering how they've destroyed Arthas and made Sylvanas into a "tortured innocent forced to do evil" character in Shadowlands, but it wouldn't change the fact it'd be unfair to her character.

[Nymrohd]

If that counts as "the same orcs" then the Draenei are also culpable for everything the Eredar did. You're being a bit lackidasical about what affiliations count & which don't.

What on earth? It very much is the same orcs. AU Grom led a draenei genocide, we see it in game. He just failed at it because we intervened. It is the exact same people from the WoD campaign. The ones that assaulted both Karabor and Shattrath, civilian centres, with weapons of mass destruction and enslaved countless draenei and dissident orcs.
Meanwhile the Sargerei among the AU Draenei are pretty much wiped out by the players.

[Ielenia]

If that counts as "the same orcs" then the Draenei are also culpable for everything the Eredar did. You're being a bit lackidasical about what affiliations count & which don't.

Uuuh... no. Those are the same orcs who brought genocide to the draenei back in alternate Draenor. They were an willing and eager part of the Iron Horde, the same Iron Horde that trampled over the Draenei and caused so many innocent deaths.

The very same orcs who captured draenei to use their souls to power up their newly built Dark Portal.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

If that counts as "the same orcs" then the Draenei are also culpable for everything the Eredar did. You're being a bit lackidasical about what affiliations count & which don't.

I find it odd you always make matter-of-fact statements on lore points that you’re consistently wrong about. Why do you do this?

[Nymrohd]

Anyway we are leaving speculation and going back into lore discussion. There is really no link between the current story and an Yrel-based Light xpac. Murozond could provide a link but there are far more immediate follow ups with Odyn and/or Avaloren for Yrel to be next unless those plots are tied up in 10.3

[Ersula]

What on earth? It very much is the same orcs. AU Grom led a draenei genocide, we see it in game. He just failed at it because we intervened. It is the exact same people from the WoD campaign. The ones that assaulted both Karabor and Shattrath, civilian centres, with weapons of mass destruction and enslaved countless draenei and dissident orcs.
Meanwhile the Sargerei among the AU Draenei are pretty much wiped out by the players.

Kil'jaedin & Archimonde convincing Orcs to kill Draenei because the Draenei picked the Orcs homeland to settle on. Yeah, it would be unfair to blame an entire race for those crimes unless you are the Alliance, who would do such a thing while completely absolving the person who actually concocted that entire situation. (He's Neltharion's son & his name rhymes with Brathion)

[Nightshade711]

Exactly. Either way, there's no way an expansion based on WoW's worst expansion will see the light of day. WoD was a failure and was hated. They have no reason to go back on it.

Dragonflight has opened many doors leading to Avaloren.

This, so much this.
The only reason why the Lightbound/Yrel existed was to give plausible reasons for the Mag’har to be an allied race without copy-pasting the Dark Iron story.

You’d think there’d be hints in-game to Yrel resurfacing, especially in a patch dedicated to alternate timelines, if there were any plans on bringing her back.

There are so many better factions/people they could pull from if blizzard really wanted to do a cringey “subvert expectations light bad” expansion.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Kil'jaedin & Archimonde convincing Orcs to kill Draenei because the Draenei picked the Orcs homeland to settle on. Yeah, it would be unfair to blame an entire race for those crimes unless you are the Alliance, who would do such a thing while completely absolving the person who actually concocted that entire situation. (He's Neltharion's son & his name rhymes with Brathion)

KJ and arch didn’t convince the Wod orcs to
Kill the goats said orcs rejected them, remember the “we will never be slaves, but we will be conquers.” Bit?

The goats also don’t blame all the orcs they had the light bound who willingly joined and would Undoudtly show up if the goats were ever used as light infused orcs including giving us a holy garrosh.

[Teriz]

Being a zealot is not the same thing as being a villain.

In this case it is, since we know she is forcefully converting others to the light. We have Mag’har in the Horde to verify it, and we experienced it first hand.

Also her religious zealotry can explain why Arrakoa and Ogres would flee Draenor and attempt to join the factions as new races in order to escape persecution and subjugation like the Mag’har did in BFA.

We spent an entire expansion helping build Yrel up to be a leader to the draenei people that her Velen would be proud of, back in Warlords of Draenor. It's unfair to her character to claim she will be an expansion villain (or lieutenant) just because of one singular, brief quest line.

Our history with her makes her fall into villainy all the more potent and tragic. That’s what makes her potentially a very compelling villain.

Also we have the Mag’har who are in our ranks now because Yrel went crazy. Unless we think a playable race is lying or exaggerating, I don’t think we’re being unfair to her character at all. She’s a dangerous threat, pure and simple.

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Exactly. Either way, there's no way an expansion based on WoW's worst expansion will see the light of day. WoD was a failure and was hated. They have no reason to go back on it.

They could look at it that way, or they could look at it as a way to redeem themselves and the expansion’s storyline, which got cut short due to internal issues.

I believe it’ll be the latter.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Also we have the Mag’har who are in our ranks now because Yrel went crazy. Unless we think a playable race is lying or exaggerating, I don’t think we’re being unfair to her character at all. She’s a dangerous threat, pure and simple.

I mean this is kinda the horde MO since BFA with things like Saurfang agreeing to start the war because the alliance under anduin might wipe them out or Rexxar saying he has to stop Jiana for being like her father when literally all she had done was help the alliance try and stop sylvanas after a genocide.

The Mag’har being full of it and actually having started the conflict and being the ones destroying the world while the goats just said enough is enough would be in brand.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

There was cut content about Yrel having "dark secrets" that only Velen knew about, i feel like if they bring Yrel back, they might use and expand the thing that was set up to happen in WoD but well, was cut.

Maybe she went crazy with light after all these years in "You either do what i told you or you're an enemy" way.

I think Yrel being a villain or doing something bad would be a lot more original than AGAIN having orcs taking the blame and being the ones making problems.. Like give my orc brethren a break.

[Ielenia]

In this case it is, since we know she is forcefully converting others to the light. We have Mag’har in the Horde to verify it, and we experienced it first hand.

We experienced one side of the story, at best.

Also her religious zealotry can explain why Arrakoa and Ogres would flee Draenor and attempt to join the factions as new races in order to escape persecution and subjugation like the Mag’har did in BFA.

I sincerely doubt Blizzard is going to reach into WoD again just to bring arakkoa and ogres into the playable factions. Especially since the arakkoa don't really lean toward any of the factions. At best, they fit the Horde. None of those two really fit the Alliance.

Our history with her makes her fall into villainy all the more potent and tragic.

And it's precisely our story with her in WoD that makes no sense for her to fall into villainy. Again: she's supposed to grow into a competent leader who Velen would be proud of. That was her entire arc in WoD. To say it should be undone because of the story told by one side is... nonsensical.

I should remind you that we're talking about the same orcs who waged genocidal war, completely unprovoked, against the draenei. And their leader (at least in Draenor) was the very orc who orchestrated and led the genocide against the draenei. For all we know the conversion might not be coerced despite what one side of the story tells us.

Unless we think a playable race is lying or exaggerating, I don’t think we’re being unfair to her character at all.

A race being "playable' or not does not preclude their leaders (or VIPs) from lying, misrepresenting or exaggerating a story.

She’s a dangerous threat, pure and simple.

So is Thrall, Jaina, Illidan, Malfurion, etc. Being powerful doesn't mean one is a "threat". Again, the side of the story being told in the Mag'har recruitment scenario goes directly against the story being told in WoD if taken at face value.