The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Ersula]

the emphasis on certain elements. the way dialogues are written, the high amount of cutesy elements, the interactions bewteen characters, the eccessive amount of girlboss moments etc are all result of a feminine touch. considering that more than 50% of the narrative team is made of women, it doesn't surprise me

Do we actually know the narrative team is majority women? Or is it that they've been wanting to show how diverse their team has been since having a massive sexual harassment expose? Even so it sounds like the so-called feminization is just putting women to the forefront of the narrative. People were wanting Alexstrasa to be more than a tertiary character & otherwise the writing isn't much different. Besides that the dialog has been notably better written during dragonflight.

Trying to frame the story as "more feminine" is fraught & subjective. The lead quest designer has been a woman for a whole decade & the novelists have been allegedly helping with that narrative since Shadowlands. * Dragonflight is not an outlier.

* It does seem like saying that Golden & La Rue have been "helping with the narrative" was only code for the books improving the overall narrative. Both writers insist that they do not actually have input on the game itself.

[doledippers]

Do we actually know the narrative team is majority women?

we dont know this, its a completely made up statistic

[Varodoc]

Personally I'd love to see more of Azshara, she puts the Jailer and Fyrakk to shame despite only being a mid-term boss.

Absolute Queen in pretty much everything:




Easily one of the best Villains of 2010s WoW, I can only hope Midnight will do her justice and avoid BfA's mistake (namely sidelining her and N'Zoth for a sad orc).

[Reive]

Don't bother with that one, some of their comments are very questionable. Best ignore trolls and not feed them. They don't like having strong female characters in games lol

looking at your ban, it seems like your comments are more questionable than mine

just because i don't agree with a bunch of people that doesn't make me a troll. unlike you, i don't go around insulting people distorcing their words to make them look like the bad guy. "they don't like having strong female characters" is not way said and if it was, it would be a huge oversemplification of the problem wow has as rpg game

Quotes the guy whose arguments got opposed and dismantled.

"Happy that finally people are starting to see it"

kay

none of my arguments were dismantled tho

1) shadowlands at launch was way more successful than dragonflight. you'd have to be delusional to believe the opposite. shadowlands was the fastest selling wow expansion while dragonflight had a meh reception after the disaster that was the second half of shadowlands. s1 of sl was HUGE
2) the way i play the game i enjoyed (personal preference) shadowlands more than dragonflight
3) shadowlands had more bulk than dragonflight. it had less overall content but there was also more replayability. Dragonflight's content is flat. Badly written short questlines, once and done events, qol and reskins are being treated as big patch features.

What does "cutesy elements" has to do with being the result of a "feminine touch" ?

Can you point out some examples and explain how they are the result of a "feminin touch" ?

I didn't found more "girlboss" moments than "boyboss" moments. In fact, I'd say that the issue is that there isn't enough "boss" moments. But maybe you could give some examples to support your point ?

1) have you ever read something and thought"yep, that was written by a woman"? that's how it feels with dragonflight. you might not believe it, but men and women put emphasis on different things when they write something.
2) girlboss moments might have been the wrong not the correct way to express what i wanted to say because, as you said, there aren't "boss" moments in this expansion. what i meant is that there is excessive under you nose obsession in giving the spotlight to female characters. this is particularly noticeable in patch 10.0

Isn't it normal considering that 50% of the world population is made of women ?

according to this logic 50% of firefighters should be women, but it's not like this. gender distribution depends mostly on the field. gaming development (generalizing) is a field where men still have the "edge". also, the wow team was largely male dominated up until a couple of years ago. this shift in gender distribution reflects in the game.

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Do we actually know the narrative team is majority women? Or is it that they've been wanting to show how diverse their team has been since having a massive sexual harassment expose? Even so it sounds like the so-called feminization is just putting women to the forefront of the narrative. People were wanting Alexstrasa to be more than a tertiary character & otherwise the writing isn't much different. Besides that the dialog has been notably better written during dragonflight.

Trying to frame the story as "more feminine" is fraught & subjective. The lead quest designer has been a woman for a whole decade & the novelists have been allegedly helping with that narrative since Shadowlands. * Dragonflight is not an outlier.

* It does seem like saying that Golden & La Rue have been "helping with the narrative" was only code for the books improving the overall narrative. Both writers insist that they do not actually have input on the game itself.

1) a dev said that on twitter a couple of months ago. if i find the tweet, i'm gonna post it.
2) not the story, the vibe of the game in general.

[doledippers]

1) shadowlands at launch was way more successful than dragonflight. you'd have to be delusional to believe the opposite. shadowlands was the fastest selling wow expansion while dragonflight had a meh reception after the disaster that was the second half of shadowlands. s1 of sl was HUGE

i see you just stopped replying after i provided all the actual data that proves the opposite. while you just never provided any data whatsoever. but sure, we're delusional

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1) have you ever read something and thought"yep, that was written by a woman"?

thats a YIKES

[Reive]

i see you just stopped replying after i provided all the actual data that proves the opposite. while you just never provided any data whatsoever. but sure, we're delusional

i already told you that the number of m+ runs doesn't prove crap. s1 of shadwolands was by any metric bigger than s1 of dragonflight

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i see you just stopped replying after i provided all the actual data that proves the opposite. while you just never provided any data whatsoever. but sure, we're delusional

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thats a YIKES

how's that a "yikes"? lmao. you know, there are differences between genders (and that's a good thing)

[doledippers]

i already told you that the number of m+ runs doesn't prove crap. s1 of shadwolands was by any metric bigger than s1 of dragonflight

you can say it doesnt prove crap, but youre wrong. how does it not? it speaks to the interest people have in replaying the content. you keep hanging on to the unique number of characters, which is an even worse metric. it doesn't account for alts, and in your oh so special shadowlands, it shows that people tried out the content, and immediately quit because of how bad it was. if there were more players surely there would be more keys being done?

and you still fail to provide any data whatsoever to backup your claims.

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1) a dev said that on twitter a couple of months ago. if i find the tweet, i'm gonna post it.

that is not a source

[Reive]

you can say it doesnt prove crap, but youre wrong. how does it not? it speaks to the interest people have in replaying the content. you keep hanging on to the unique number of characters, which is an even worse metric. it doesn't account for alts, and in your oh so special shadowlands, it shows that people tried out the content, and immediately quit because of how bad it was. if there were more players surely there would be more keys being done?

how much people repeat something is not indicative of how many people are playing the game. dragonflight is less toxic than shadowlands but still had/has less players.

anyway:

1) arena partecipation: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldofpvp/...ry_of_mmr_pvp/
952k chars for s1 of sl vs 393k for s1 of df
2) m+ partecipation: you posted it yesterday. sl had more unique chars
3) raid partecipation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDAm...llularWarcraft
30k+ first boss kills for nathria vs 19k for vault. raid partecipation on 10.0 was on the same level of 9.1: 19k vs 18k

do i have to go on?

[doledippers]

how much people repeat something is not indicative of how many people are playing the game. dragonflight is less toxic than shadowlands but still had/has less players.

anyway:

1) arena partecipation: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldofpvp/...ry_of_mmr_pvp/
952k chars for s1 of sl vs 393k for s1 of df
2) m+ partecipation: you posted it yesterday. sl had more unique chars
3) raid partecipation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDAm...llularWarcraft
34k first boss kills for nathria vs 19k for vault. raid partecipation on 10.0 was on the same level of 9.1: 19k vs 18k

do i have to go on?

1). raiders were forced to pvp for gear in s1 of SL. no proper data can be derived from what you posted as it doesnt account for that overlap. good try
2). you can keep lying about this, not gonna keep arguing since you refuse to acknowledge objective reality
3). raids were easier in DF, none of this data accounts for pugs, good try

really poor outing here, 0 for 3!

and while you're at it, since shadowlands was so good, lets see that dropoff season over season. surely since shadowlands is so good people stuck around and totally did not leave the game in droves

[Zardas]

1) have you ever read something and thought"yep, that was written by a woman"?

Absolutely not, no. Why would a difference of one chromosome make someone's writting drasticaly different ? Or are you saying that being a woman is more than having a double X chromosome ?

you might not believe it, but men and women put emphasis on different things when they write something.

Well, on that we agree : I might not believe it. And that's because it's complete bullshit. Again, a one chromosome difference doesn't change how you write. Pretty sure I could give you texts to read and guess if a man or a woman wrote it, and you would be wrong 50% of the time.

2) girlboss moments might have been the wrong not the correct way to express what i wanted to say because, as you said, there aren't "boss" moments in this expansion. what i meant is that there is excessive under you nose obsession in giving the spotlight to female characters. this is particularly noticeable in patch 10.0

No offense, but I think that you are weirdly focusing on if the characters that the spotlight is put upon are female. Like, would you say that wotlk had an " excessive under you nose obsession in giving the spotlight to male characters" ?

according to this logic 50% of firefighters should be women, but it's not like this. gender distribution depends mostly on the field. gaming development (generalizing) is a field where men still have the "edge". also, the wow team was largely male dominated up until a couple of years ago. this shift in gender distribution reflects in the game.

The only thing gender distribution of a field should depend on is the biological aptitude to work in said field. Firefighters shouldn't aim for a 50% of female because it's a physically demanding job, and men are biologicaly more suited for it.

In game development however, being a man or a woman doesn't matter since it doesn't change the quality of your work.Therefore the only employement criteria should be skill, of course, you will end up with a 50% distribution that way.

[Makorus]

What a surprise that the expansion that launched during Covid and lockdown had more players!
It's almost like people were locked up at home with nothing to do.

This forum is where nuance goes to die.

You can like and dislike parts of an expansion without disliking or liking the entire expansion.

You can dislike parts of an expansion without it suddenly being the worst thing ever.

Shadowlands had shortcomings and good things. So does DF. I wouldn't call either of them bad expansions. Good? Maybe. Mediocre? Maybe. Bad? lol no.

[doledippers]

What a surprise that the expansion that launched during Covid and lockdown had more players!

It's almost like people were locked up at home with nothing to do.

This forum is where nuance goes to die.

so fucking funny to me how someone can take this fact, see the spike in players in season 1, ignore how little those players engaged with endgame beyond a single time, and ignore the fucking insane drop off that immediately followed, like a 70% decrease and think, hey! this is good!

it literally blows my mind

[Reive]

1). raiders were forced to pvp for gear in s1 of SL. no proper data can be derived from what you posted as it doesnt account for that overlap. good try
2). you can keep lying about this, not gonna keep arguing since you refuse to acknowledge objective reality
3). raids were easier in DF, none of this data accounts for pugs, good try

really poor outing here, 0 for 3!

and while you're at it, since shadowlands was so good, lets see that dropoff season over season. surely since shadowlands is so good people stuck around and totally did not leave the game in droves

ahah it's impossible to argue with you.

1) ok, let's use s2 numbers then. 480k for s2 shadowlands vs 393k s1 of dragonflight
2) how am i lying? you posted the numbers lmao. s1 of shadowlands had more unique characters
3) ok, let's compare last boss mythic kills then. 2432 Total Kills for sire in mythic vs 1665 Total Kills for raszageth. heroic? 21650 Total Kills vs 11560 Total Kills.

also, you keep misreading what i say. i didn't say shadowlands was good. i just said:

1) sl was bigger than dragonflight at the start
2) i liked sl way more than dragonflight

truth is, both were shitty expansions. i'd rather have mop back

[doledippers]

ahah it's impossible to argue with you.

1) ok, let's use s2 numbers then. 480k for s2 shadowlands vs 393k s1 of dragonflight
2) how am i lying? you posted the numbers lmao. s1 of shadowlands had more unique characters
3) ok, let's compare last boss mythic kills then. 2432 Total Kills for sire in mythic vs 1665 Total Kills for raszageth. heroic? 21650 Total Kills vs 11560 Total Kills.

also, you keep misreading what i say. i didn't say shadowlands was good. i just said:

1) sl was bigger than dragonflight at the start
2) i liked sl way more than dragonflight

truth is, both were shitty expansions. i'd rather have mop back

you're a professional goalpost mover, this is wild! this whole thing started with saying season 3 was the most popular season and you've yet to even acknowledge it once. first it was m+, then it was pvp and raid, then its comparing seasons disingenuously. you're a riot seriously.

truth is that covid had a massive impact on the number of players in s1 of shadowlands. the numbers show that the expansion was so awful they left in droves the likes of which wow has never seen, the expansion had a continual and painful decline. we see the opposite with DF in season 3, where we have massive growth compared to s1 and s2. i wonder why that is?

you dont have to like it, but acting like the numbers support what you're saying is revisionist history and dishonest. cheers

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i never thought id see the day where people come in here defending shadowlands. the contrarianism is strong in the wow doomer circle

[Lorgar Aurelian]

1) arena partecipation: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldofpvp/...ry_of_mmr_pvp/

So I can’t search the page on my phone, but this is just 3’s right? No accounting for 2v2 or Ss?

Because if so it’s pretty useless info like I was expecting mirroring the drop in raid numbers as people just started doing LFR years ago .

[Reive]

Absolutely not, no. Why would a difference of one chromosome make someone's writting drasticaly different ? Or are you saying that being a woman is more than having a double X chromosome ?



Well, on that we agree : I might not believe it. And that's because it's complete bullshit. Again, a one chromosome difference doesn't change how you write. Pretty sure I could give you texts to read and guess if a man or a woman wrote it, and you would be wrong 50% of the time.



No offense, but I think that you are weirdly focusing on if the characters that the spotlight is put upon are female. Like, would you say that wotlk had an " excessive under you nose obsession in giving the spotlight to male characters" ?




The only thing gender distribution of a field should depend on is the biological aptitude to work in said field. Firefighters shouldn't aim for a 50% of female because it's a physically demanding job, and men are biologicaly more suited for it.

In game development however, being a man or a woman doesn't matter since it doesn't change the quality of your work.Therefore the only employement criteria should be skill, of course, you will end up with a 50% distribution that way.

1)As i already said, man and women approach certain things differently and those differences can be seen in something like writing. You don't believe it? that's fine
2)Considering that most of those character either the focus of the story, the major leaders of rep factions or even villains, it's hard to not notice lol
3)You were the one generalizing things. ofc jobs like firefighter and construction worker have a way higher % of men
4) the same could be said for stem jobs and yet the number of men is still higher. skill is just one factor.

anyway, let's end this gender thing because it's off topic. i apologize for starting it

[doledippers]

So I can’t search the page on my phone, but this is just 3’s right? No accounting for 2v2 or Ss?

Because if so it’s pretty useless info like I was expecting mirroring the drop in raid numbers as people just started doing LFR years ago .

correct this is just 3v3, a very small slice of the total participation. utterly useless data

[Reive]

What a surprise that the expansion that launched during Covid and lockdown had more players!
It's almost like people were locked up at home with nothing to do.

This forum is where nuance goes to die.

You can like and dislike parts of an expansion without disliking or liking the entire expansion.

You can dislike parts of an expansion without it suddenly being the worst thing ever.

Shadowlands had shortcomings and good things. So does DF. I wouldn't call either of them bad expansions. Good? Maybe. Mediocre? Maybe. Bad? lol no.

funny because bfa managed to lose players during covid lol. what you said is true, but it's also true that the hype for shadowlands was way higher than the one for dragonflight. shadowlands was a bad and toxic expansion while dragonflight is lame and boring. both are not good, but for the kind of player i'm sl is a bit better

you're a professional goalpost mover, this is wild! this whole thing started with saying season 3 was the most popular season and you've yet to even acknowledge it once. first it was m+, then it was pvp and raid, then its comparing seasons disingenuously. you're a riot seriously.

truth is that covid had a massive impact on the number of players in s1 of shadowlands. the numbers show that the expansion was so awful they left in droves the likes of which wow has never seen, the expansion had a continual and painful decline. we see the opposite with DF in season 3, where we have massive growth compared to s1 and s2. i wonder why that is?

you dont have to like it, but acting like the numbers support what you're saying is revisionist history and dishonest. cheers

i never thought id see the day where people come in here defending shadowlands. the contrarianism is strong in the wow doomer circle

most popular of dragonflight? suure, i guess.

also, the blizzcon hype had a similar effect covid had on wow.

[Nymrohd]

This is all completely off topic

[ImTheMizAwesome]

We need more poop quests in the war within.