The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nightshade711]

I think they will probably try to do both, what you're referring to with the scarlet crusade: a cosmic light vs void expansion using forces on azeroth. Was there a hint that iridikron is making a deal with the light? I heard that somewhere, can't remember though. Void seems to make more sense but idk.

I’d love to see the return of classic villains like the Scarlet Crusade. They’d make much more sense than the speculated “Yrel invasion from an alternate timeline” imo. Especially if we are successful in preventing Nozdormu’s corruption.
I will be excited to see what role the Ethereals would have. I wonder what a “holy” Ethereal would look like. Given their story of how their world was destroyed it would make sense for some of them to turn to the light.

I think the theory that Iridikron is using The Light was because he was essentially a “mirror” of Neltharion in a way and just because of how he looks.
Though narratively I think it would be interesting if he was meant to be a mirror of Deathwing, but with the light instead of void.

[Super Dickmann]

Yet we are seeing them continue to make the same mistakes as BfA and Shadowlands with the whole "wait and see" approach to the Primalist's motivations.

Sometimes inept writers are just inept.

There's nothing really mysterious about their motive, they want to kill the Aspects and then return the world to its [pre-Titan, pre-Old God state of elemental chaos because they're assholes. They're not exactly Raskolnikov. Raz says as much on either her second or third line.

[Nymrohd]

I’d love to see the return of classic villains like the Scarlet Crusade. They’d make much more sense than the speculated “Yrel invasion from an alternate timeline” imo. Especially if we are successful in preventing Nozdormu’s corruption.

I think the theory that Iridikron is using The Light was because he was essentially a “mirror” of Neltharion in a way and just because of how he looks.
Though narratively I think it would be interesting if he was meant to be a mirror of Deathwing, but with the light instead of void.

Honestly I'd like Yrel because it might be mirrored by some lore on the Azerothian Draenei. Like, O'ros died. Would that mean the Draenei would build a new Auchindoun to bury him? Would perhaps the Council of Exarchs be reformed?

[Super Dickmann]

I'd like Yrel because the Space Goat Jihad is cool.

[Nymrohd]

There's nothing really mysterious about their motive, they want to kill the Aspects and then return the world to its [pre-Titan, pre-Old God state of elemental chaos because they're assholes. They're not exactly Raskolnikov. Raz says as much on either her second or third line.

Does Iridikron actually want that or does he just want power and he uses this ideology to manipulate the others (well Vyranoth, Fyrakk is just a classic hungry dragon and Rasz was a zealot)? And if he does want that, how is he planning to accomplish that? Because killing the Aspects doesn't actually do much; they are useless anyway.

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I'd like Yrel because the Space Goat Jihad is cool.

That too. Especially given it would have lightbound/lightforged orcs, ogres and arakkoa with it. Plus depending on how smart and diplomatic Yrel is, she could get a decent portion of the Alliance and even some of the Horde (Liadrin, Calia) at her side. So we'd actually have some conflict and the type that could find adequate resolution.

[Super Dickmann]

Does Iridikron actually want that or does he just want power and he uses this ideology to manipulate the others (well Vyranoth, Fyrakk is just a classic hungry dragon and Rasz was a zealot)? And if he does want that, how is he planning to accomplish that? Because killing the Aspects doesn't actually do much; they are useless anyway.

I mean, even that isn't exactly very complicated to grasp. It's fairly telegraphed he's an Old God puppet or just self-serving. As for how they go about doing it, that's not exactly an ambiguity in motive worth calling a mystery box or even being a particular point of importance. It's not like the Legion in Legion became confusing because we weren't sure what plot device they'd use, wanting to destroy the world because they're evil demons is fairly self-explanatory, as is doing so because they're evil dragons.

The game isn't playing coy with them. They're as straight forward as it gets villain-wise. The whole vague villain business is a false start in criticism, because it's not villains in general it affects. It was Sylvanas and because she was the only one moving the plot along and the writers didn't even know what she wanted to do for most of her screentime and hwen they ultimately decided it was retarded. The Bald Man was never bad because he was somehow vague - the first thing he tells us is he wants to kill everyone and he's running a bondage dimension. Nor did we lose anything because we didn't know the obtuse rube-goldberg machine he needed in order to complete that objective. It's because he had zero stage presence, no memorable lines, barely any screentime, no sensible relationship with any other characters, was hamhandedly shoehorned into the plot and the writers didn't even know what his personality was. Also his design was boring (twice).

[Khaza-R]

There's nothing really mysterious about their motive, they want to kill the Aspects and then return the world to its [pre-Titan, pre-Old God state of elemental chaos because they're assholes. They're not exactly Raskolnikov. Raz says as much on either her second or third line.

I would agree if they didn't ramble on about how the titans or order magic are bad. They are clearly trying to make some justification for their motivations which have not been explored whatsoever. So far it just makes them very nonsensical as villains.

[Super Dickmann]

I would agree if they didn't ramble on about how the titans or order magic are bad. They are clearly trying to make some justification for their motivations which have not been explored whatsoever. So far it just makes them very nonsensical as villains.

Their grievance isn't obscure either, it's also spelled out by every Primalist Tom, Dick and Harry. They're upset about the Titans because they're interlopers who imposed their order upon the existing world, shifting it towards their preferences, up to and including charging dragonkind with defending a bunch of flabby mortals rather than ruling the world as apex predators. It's not deep but neither is it vague.

[Khaza-R]

Their grievance isn't obscure either, it's also spelled out by every Primalist Tom, Dick and Harry. They're upset about the Titans because they're interlopers who imposed their order upon the existing world, shifting it towards their preferences, up to and including charging dragonkind with defending a bunch of flabby mortals rather than ruling the world as apex predators. It's not deep but neither is it vague.

Which makes no sense because the world before the titans was violent, chaotic and full of ritualistic sacrifice. Not some utopia.

Its entirely possible they are building towards some subversive plot where the titans are liars and what we think we know about Azeroth before their ordering is false. In fact I think they tried to even hint as such with one of the Uldaman books. But again that goes make to my original point that they are repeating the same mistakes yet again.

[Super Dickmann]

Which makes no sense because the world before the titans was violent, chaotic and full of ritualistic sacrifice. Not some utopia.

Its entirely possible they are building towards some subversive plot where the titans are liars and what we think we know about Azeroth before their ordering is false. In fact I think they tried to even hint as such with one of the Uldaman books. But again that goes make to my original point that they are repeating the same mistakes yet again.

How does it make no sense? We've social darwinists in reality, let alone the transparent logic of why if you're the apex predator, one of the four strongest beings in the world, you'd much prefer a world where you can do as you please and you'd be upset if some dickheads dropped in and told you that you should instead dedicate your life to being the professional nannies to people who'd otherwise appeal to you for strength or you could kill off on a whim. The violence and chaos of the world are features, not bugs.

[Teriz]

Which makes no sense because the world before the titans was violent, chaotic and full of ritualistic sacrifice. Not some utopia.

For some, that's literally their definition of utopia.

I enjoy the simplicity of the Incarnates' motivations far more than the mystery box bullshit of Sylvanas, the Jailer, and the first ones.

[Super Dickmann]

It's much deeper than just "lol we're mean, we hate titans and we want to kill aspects".
There is evidence in-game that the titans want to control the dragons via imbuing the waters of Uldorus with order magic.
But we don't know exactly why and what the purpose is. Tyr was also researching aspects and proto-dragons. We still lack information.

There is somewhat more to them than being evil dragons, but the core of their grievance and the archetype they represent is that. That adds to that point. Not only are you no longer apex predators where your natural strength and influence are relevant, but powers alien to the world want to change your mindset and then put chemical in the water to ensure your entire species work based on their design. This is also spelled out in game, the only points of ambiguity are on how the Titans will end up being framed on this, not so much on how the Incarnates view it and why it makes sense given their perspective.

[Nymrohd]

Which makes no sense because the world before the titans was violent, chaotic and full of ritualistic sacrifice. Not some utopia.

Its entirely possible they are building towards some subversive plot where the titans are liars and what we think we know about Azeroth before their ordering is false. In fact I think they tried to even hint as such with one of the Uldaman books. But again that goes make to my original point that they are repeating the same mistakes yet again.

The thing is, that concept fall flats when examined in the greater Warcraft narrative, especially immediately after SL were the magical gay unicorns tells us how they went super saiyan to fight the Old Gods destroying their world. No Titans intervened in Fyzandi to paint the "utopian" Black Empire black. If they wanted to let a subversive plot be possible in which the Black Empire was "not so evil after all", why on earth did they do that story??? Nah it's subversion for its own sake; everything sacred must be evil because some people discovered post structuralism with a 70 year delay (and no colonialist framing to make it make sense).

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It's much deeper than just "lol we're mean, we hate titans and we want to kill aspects".
There is evidence in-game that the titans want to control the dragons via imbuing the waters of Uldorus with order magic.
But we don't know exactly why and what the purpose is. Tyr was also researching aspects and proto-dragons. We still lack information.

The entire idea of Order imbuement is Noblesse Oblige. It is paternalistic conservatism imposing order to the Anarchy of the natural order. The idea that this is somehow obscene is peculiar because the argument of the Incarnates and the Void is Might Makes Right so why exactly we are trying to find the moral advantage between Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil is beyond me (and historically it was nearly universally a step taken before representative systems).
It is really not so deep. We are just coded to believe that. It's an allusion to decolonization written by people who have no understand of it.

[Super Dickmann]

The thing is, that concept fall flats when examined in the greater Warcraft narrative, especially immediately after SL were the magical gay unicorns tells us how they went super saiyan to fight the Old Gods destroying their world. No Titans intervened in Fyzandi to paint the "utopian" Black Empire black. Nah it's subversion for its own sake; everything sacred must be evil because some people discovered post structuralism with a 70 year delay (and no colonialist framing to make it make sense).

You don't even need to go back as far as SL for it. We see the Black Empire in DF, as shit as ever, and the whole current patch is based around how the void is associated with madness and self-destruction. Not that this'd put Blizzard off from some 'tarded subversion, but the Odyn book has zero relation to what we actually see. So far, the portrayal of both the Titans and the Black Empire has been fairly consistent.

[Nymrohd]

You don't even need to go back as far as SL for it. We see the Black Empire in DF, as shit as ever, and the whole current patch is based around how the void is associated with madness and self-destruction. Not that this'd put Blizzard off from some 'tarded subversion, but the Odyn book has zero relation to what we actually see. So far, the portrayal of both the Titans and the Black Empire has been fairly consistent.

The thing with Fyzandi is, we got a third party observation of a Black Empire in a world that does not involve Titans. I don't disagree with what you are saying but they still had room to retcon. And they may still do this because they lack narrative cohesion and basic discipline in their collaborative storytelling so the fact that Fyzandi enhanced the framing of the existing narrative has probably flown past them.

[Super Dickmann]

The thing with Fyzandi is, we got a third party observation of a Black Empire in a world that does not involve Titans. I don't disagree with what you are saying but they still had room to retcon. And they may still do this because they lack narrative cohesion and basic discipline in their collaborative storytelling so the fact that Fyzandi enhanced the framing of the existing narrative has probably flown past them.

Given how Blizzard operates, I place emphasis on the importance of the current portrayal. Everything that happens before they likely forgot, if the same people even made it. But in DF proper, it's depicted in the same way as ever. The only way to sensibly interpret the book in light of what we actually see is that it's covering up how void-created creatures can have motives and a culture and that the void can be used to any kind of productive end (but naturally doesn't tend towards that). That is something you'd want to do to make sure no one fucks with it. But in general I think it's just a half-assed setup for a subversion that they haven't actually done in favor of doubling down on the present portrayal. I agree that there's nill guarantee they won't pivot no matter how little sense it makes, but they haven't so far.

[Ielenia]

They would not change existing specs into supports ones. There are people that enjoy those specs, It would provoke unnecessary backlash. I see new specs happening, though.

Ehhh.... they did make Survival from ranged into melee. That's the most obvious go-to answer.

Then we have the death knight. Those who enjoyed Unholy or Frost tanking in Wrath were forced to now move to Blood if they wanted to continue tanking, and those who liked blood DPS back in Wrath were forced to now go to Frost or Unholy for DPS.

And then we have the monk's Mistweaver spec, which went from the usual mistweaving healer to now needing to go fistweaving to be competitive.

[MCMLXXXII]

Ehhh.... they did make Survival from ranged into melee. That's the most obvious go-to answer.

Then we have the death knight. Those who enjoyed Unholy or Frost tanking in Wrath were forced to now move to Blood if they wanted to continue tanking, and those who liked blood DPS back in Wrath were forced to now go to Frost or Unholy for DPS.

And then we have the monk's Mistweaver spec, which went from the usual mistweaving healer to now needing to go fistweaving to be competitive.

I want my blood DPS back. But tbf I enjoy unholy now

[Nightshade711]

Then we have the death knight. Those who enjoyed Unholy or Frost tanking in Wrath were forced to now move to Blood if they wanted to continue tanking, and those who liked blood DPS back in Wrath were forced to now go to Frost or Unholy for DPS.

Tbh I miss when any of the DK specs coulda been either Tank or DPS. I thought it was a cool concept and it’d be cool to have hybrid specs like that return.

[Ielenia]

Tbh I miss when any of the DK specs coulda been either Tank or DPS. I thought it was a cool concept and it’d be cool to have hybrid specs like that return.

I sincerely doubt dual-role specs are ever coming back, especially due to how talent trees are designed today. Giving it a "dual role" means half the tree would have to be dedicated to tanking talents, while the other half would be dedicated to DPS talents, giving less talent options to either role.

And we'd go back to the vanilla Feral druid situation, who wasn't a decent dps, or a decent tank.