The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Reive]

They should have made a separate version of that graph with just Retail subscriptions.

No shit Dragonflight had Legion-level subscription numbers. There was no Classic in Legion.

It would be a lot more interesting to see how a Classic-less Dragonflight and Shadowlands would compare to Legion.

Legion did not have Classic to artifically inflate its sub count, don't forget that.

i don't think it would change that much. major releases aside there isn't much activity on classic.

by the time shadowlands came out, era was basically dead. the subs were almost all from retail
for dragonflight is probably the same because dragonflight came out 4 months after the release of classic wrath

[Dracullus]

They should have made a separate version of that graph with just Retail subscriptions.

Explain how to do that in service with joined subscription. xD

[Vakir]

No, we can pretty clearly determine whether there would be a surge or not, because we can see what a surge looks like via the comparison we have to Classic. By the time of TBC, Classic has flatlined as an additional product, with its core additional playerbase locked in. If it was buoying the playerbase with an additional subscription rate, it would be visible in the graph, but it doesn't, because by that point it's not a gaming event like the Classic release mid-BFA rightly was, but is just another separate product chugging along with its own consistent playerbase.

That surge is the entirety of Classic suddenly existing, yes.

But while there was a big event dropoff because Classic didn't retain everyone that started with it, Classic still has a pretty big secondary audience with its own content droughts and major updates.

The extreme number surge not being present isn't indicative of anything for the same reason that we don't see huge hikes for patch releases on the graph - it's largely streamlined. They don't even put BC where it should be as visually representing it, same as Wrath.

Also, crazy to pin all the blame on Shadowlands when BFA legit took what Legion started and made it 90 times worse.

Literally nobody of worth is doing this. Nobody is downplaying that BFA is also dogshit other than Varodoc, who is both contrarian and legally bound to their weird Void gimmick.

There's a way to read a chart competently while also acknowledging that two products suck independently.

[Varodoc]

Explain how to do that in service with joined subscription. xD

That's not My problem.

I'm simply saying it would be interesting to also get the version of that graph without Classic.

I don't need to explain anything to you.

Also, crazy to pin all the blame on Shadowlands when BFA legit took what Legion started and made it 90 times worse.

BfA also had 3 patches compared to Shadowlands' 2. It had 5 raids as opposed to Shadowlands' 3. It added 10 new races. It had 6 zones at Launch instead of just 5, and actual, Suramar-sized capital cities instead of pitiful Oribos.

[Makabreska]

Welp, I can confidently say that that BfA was my fav expansion since Legion, up until DF arrived. Best zones, best classic fantasy feel, best dungeons and raids. I got over the story years ago and borrowed powers and it's grind faded away from my memories.

[Jastall]

No, we can pretty clearly determine whether there would be a surge or not, because we can see what a surge looks like via the comparison we have to Classic. By the time of TBC, Classic has flatlined as an additional product, with its core additional playerbase locked in. If it was buoying the playerbase with an additional subscription rate, it would be visible in the graph, but it doesn't, because by that point it's not a gaming event like the Classic release mid-BFA rightly was, but is just another separate product chugging along with its own consistent playerbase.

That conclusion is also helped by Season of Discovery clearly boosting subs a lot itself. It seems Classic players want Classic, as in vanilla, even if it comes with some additional spice. Even the lauded Wrath itself didn't boost subs as significantly.

That said, the graph doesn't contain enough data for any sort of in-depth analysis, and mostly shows what Blizzard wanted it to show. Its primary aim is clearly to reassure whomever the target audience was (not forum grognards for sure) that things are going well.

[Dracullus]

That's not My problem.

I'm simply saying it would be interesting to also get the version of that graph without Classic.

I don't need to explain anything to you.

"They should do that <virtually impossible thing>"

"How can they do that"

"NOT MY PROBLEM I DON"T NEED TO EXPLAIN ANYTHING TO YOU"

Yeah, thx for your contribution to the thread xD.

That said, the graph doesn't contain enough data for any sort of in-depth analysis, and mostly shows what Blizzard wanted it to show. Its primary aim is clearly to reassure whomever the target audience was (not forum grognards for sure) that things are going well.

Of course we are not target, but over years community perception about subs really drifted away from reality.

I get why Blizzard doesn't show subs every quarter (look at Legion numbers, people would call it failure if we would witness sub loss very similar to WoD), but imo every few years there should be detailed report that show all ups and downs.

[Varodoc]

"They should do that <virtually impossible thing>"

"How can they do that"

"NOT MY PROBLEM I DON"T NEED TO EXPLAIN ANYTHING TO YOU"

Yeah, thx for your contribution to the thread xD.

How is you harassing and attacking Me out of nowhere for sharing My opinion "contributing"?

[Relapses]

Welp, I can confidently say that that BfA was my fav expansion since Legion, up until DF arrived. Best zones, best classic fantasy feel, best dungeons and raids. I got over the story years ago and borrowed powers and it's grind faded away from my memories.

I didn't hate BfA either. Corruption was fucking sick. But its third season of M+ can fuck right off the tallest building on earth.

[Skildar]

Shadowlands will for sure remain a big thorn as they're are now trying to pull a World Soul Saga when the Jailer was already attempting to drain the World Soul of Azeroth...

[Dracullus]

How is you harassing and attacking Me out of nowhere for sharing My opinion "contributing"?

You know this is discussion forum, right? Everything you, me or whoever write can be criticized or challenged.

[Cheezits]

Shadowlands will for sure remain a big thorn as they're are now trying to pull a World Soul Saga when the Jailer was already attempting to drain the World Soul of Azeroth...

If anything they will tie that in neatly to whatever the Titans are going to do with Ulduar in The Last Titan. They may use that "pipeline" the Jailer made to further morph Azeroth's soul, or we will be tasked with going underneath ICC and plugging up the hole. Also the very few hints about the Lifelands in Dragonflight show they aren't completely abandoning some of the bigger lore hooks in Shadowlands.

Also they WILL address the similarities between the First Ones and the Titans, even if it's not a big focus.

[justwatching]

Lmaooo Shadowlands' final sub count was higher than BFA's. That's crazy.

Well Wrath classic launching at the very end of SL certainly helped.

[Nymrohd]

Keep in mind Shadowlands also kind of profited from the pandemic.

[Dracullus]

Keep in mind Shadowlands also kind of profited from the pandemic.

Of course, there are many variables for each launch. Same as scandal around Blizzard in mid 2021 for sure hurt numbers, yet had nothing to do with SL.

I think problem here is people adding their personal feeling about each expansion to discussion about numbers, while it's even perfectly plausible to shit patch being more popular than good one.

[Nymrohd]

Of course, there are many variables for each launch. Same as scandal around Blizzard in mid 2021 for sure hurt numbers, yet had nothing to do with SL.

I think problem here is people adding their personal feeling about each expansion to discussion about numbers, while it's even perfectly plausible to shit patch being more popular than good one.

Yup, pretty much. Like, the boost from Classic would baseline elevate all subs from that point on by some amount; so the fact that BfA's lowest which is before Classic is lower than SL's doesn't mean much. Or that that DF did NOT have China subs and TWW will. There is just so many effects and especially the addition of Classic complicates everything. But what is important is that the subs never seem to dip much below WoD's lowest point at 5 mil and DF is probably much higher than that.

I'd say the one thing the graph does is dispel any doom and gloom. The game remains extremely active so Blizzard is likely planning a third decade for it. Anyone who starts with WoW is dying can just look at the numbers.

[Sondrelk]

Welp, I can confidently say that that BfA was my fav expansion since Legion, up until DF arrived. Best zones, best classic fantasy feel, best dungeons and raids. I got over the story years ago and borrowed powers and it's grind faded away from my memories.

All those reasons are probably why I hate it so much actually. Because it had all those good parts, and still managed to squander it so badly on a terrible plot.
I love me a good steak and fries with a creme brulee for dessert. I wouldnt like it if someone served me experimental beef cubes in vanilla custard.

- - - Updated - - -

Is that graph confirmed legitimate? Because it seems wildly unprofessional given the lack of actual numbers to compare the graph to. It seems like a reasonable expression of the reality of subscription numbers, but I don't want to just blindly trust something so easily faked.

[Woggmer]

All those reasons are probably why I hate it so much actually. Because it had all those good parts, and still managed to squander it so badly on a terrible plot.
I love me a good steak and fries with a creme brulee for dessert. I wouldnt like it if someone served me experimental beef cubes in vanilla custard.

Not just terrible plot, but gameplay as well... Keep in mind that Legion's biggest selling point was the fact that you could make a Demon Hunter which was something that a lot of people (mostly blood elf players) have hoped for ever since they saw them back in TBC and heard rumors of them being a potential playable class.

Then BFA comes around and nerfs Demon Hunters so badly that they became unplayable for the longest time, even worse the Shadow Priest's mess when they lost their Artifact Weapons. All the hardwork people put into Legion was diminished the moment you lost your artifact weapon and a lot of the bells and whistles that made the classes strong, and some specs still haven't recovered from it and need to go through extensive reworks just to be "playable" let alone be optimal.

[Nymrohd]

Not just terrible plot, but gameplay as well... Keep in mind that Legion's biggest selling point was the fact that you could make a Demon Hunter which was something that a lot of people (mostly blood elf players) have hoped for ever since they saw them back in TBC and heard rumors of them being a potential playable class.

Then BFA comes around and nerfs Demon Hunters so badly that they became unplayable for the longest time, even worse the Shadow Priest's mess when they lost their Artifact Weapons. All the hardwork people put into Legion was diminished the moment you lost your artifact weapon and a lot of the bells and whistles that made the classes strong, and some specs still haven't recovered from it and need to go through extensive reworks just to be "playable" let alone be optimal.

The systems of Warcraft never failed as hard as BfA launch. The brutal loss of power and utility from the artifacts and the extremely poor and in some cases plain stupid implementation of Azerite gear together with Blizzard stonewalling theorycrafters who rang every bell throughout the beta just messed everything up.

[Woggmer]

That graph doesn't make much sense to me. Not in the sense that BFA has a low point compared to Shadowlands, but that Shadowlands has a higher launch than Legion and BFA... almost on par with WoW Classic's launch. In a sequel expansion that came after it made Sylvanas super unpopular, shits on the story and gameplay.

It could just be pandemic, but I don't recall a lot of people being super hyped about Shadowlands when it launched. Especially with people warning Blizzard that covenants weren't ready and that they still needed to fine tune a lot of things wrong with them.