The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[huth]

I'm not a fan of this "Holy Light can be bad" narrative but I'm not super angry about it. I don't see anything wrong with a cosmic force that totally isn't nefarious and what not. Kinda like Life(It would be really jarring if Life was like "Yeah we don't trust mortals."

It's not nefarious. It just has goals that are at odds with ours. We already had bad Light and Life anyway.

Being enemies isn't usually about good or evil.

[Teriz]

Perhaps, though I'm still of the opinion that if she comes forth in a fight with the Light, it will be less as the main avatar of this force and more as the Harbinger whom we first meet, possibly as an ally or enemy pending if you are Alliance or Horde.

Possibly. However, when we last saw her she was leading this force, and according to reports, she was the main one pushing its genocidal agenda.

I do think what may happen is that initially she comes in peace, tries to sway leaders of the Alliance and Horde to her ideals. Eventually we see her agenda for what it is, but by that point some major leaders of both sides are already swayed and the factions begin to buckle from within as this overwhelming invasion force pushes in. It could be a pretty epic conflict that leaves the factions and Azeroth heavily damaged in the aftermath.

I would not be surprised in the slightest if she finds some sort of redemption and becomes a leader of the Lightforged Draenei.

Nah, I don't see a redemption arc for her. I think she dies by the end. She's too far gone to be redeemed or reprogrammed.

[Abraxan]

Meh, why layer themes though? It feels so wasteful.

How do you mean layer themes? It feels like one theme to me.

I think the theme will largely be a continuation of the theme they're starting in DF: the cosmic forces aren't inherently good or evil. I think the next few expansions will stretch their stories and themes out rather than establish and resolve a new threat and theme with each expansion.

I think the current arc of the next several expansions will focus on having the characters learn that the cosmic forces are morally eqivalent, that squabbling among them will make them unprepared for the "greater threat" that n'zoth and the jailer have both mentioned, and that the cosmic forces need to unite in order to survive (probably infuse azeroth with a balance of all of them to fight whatever that threat ends up being - I think probably the devourers introduced in SL).

Now whether whoever is directing the story 5-10 years from now continues the current threads or changes them, who knows. My money would be on the latter, but that's no fun for expansion predictions.

[Seiklis]

I don't see it as Light can be bad. More as "some Naaru can be bad". Xe'ra was not the best person and I think most people assume Yrel's Light Mother is AU Xe'ra. Imo if they went for it, they should bring A'dal back as an opposing force.

I know it's already set since there's multiples of the naaru from outland and au draenor, but would have been more fun imo if there was only one Xe'ra and she can only body hop into her existing children. If K'ara were one of her spawn and she went into that after Illidan killed her, that would prolly take care of why she wants everyone on Azeroth dead

Would also be kinda fun to see Velen's counterpart be the cause of the whole mess by saving K'ara

[Houle]

Being enemies isn't usually about good or evil.

In Warcraft, it VERY MUCH is. Like, 90% of the time.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Possibly. However, when we last saw her she was leading this force, and according to reports, she was the main one pushing its genocidal agenda.

I'm inclined to contest that Yrel is outwardly genocidal; if anything, she seems to be most interested in overseeing mass conversions, and we don't know whether or not those conversions entail any kind of cultural genocide or if the Orcs are otherwise maintaining their previously-existent social orders, tribal identities, and autonomy. It's entirely possible that the microcosm we're seeing isn't reflective of the overall situation, and that the Mag'har are somehow misrepresenting the nature of their conflict and the degree to which the conversions among other Orcs are a product of coercion. We also don't quite know the full story behind the current conflict on Draenor. Let's not forget that our primary source for anything that goes on there is Geya'rah, who is markedly stoked on Grom—the former overseer of a hyperexpansionist regime—to a perturbing degree. It's entirely possible that the Mag'har are more a group of fringe reactionaries than we've been led to believe, and that the Lightbound only became so aggressive after the Mag'har began attacking their missionaries for posing a perceived threat to them. Regardless of the specifics of the situation, I'm definitely not inclined to believe that Yrel has become an irredeemable villain, and that the only recourse for her malfeasance is in her demise.

[Nymrohd]

I'm inclined to contest that Yrel is outwardly genocidal; if anything, she seems to be most interested in overseeing mass conversions, and we don't know whether or not those conversions entail any kind of cultural genocide or if the Orcs are otherwise maintaining their previously-existent social orders, tribal identities, and autonomy. It's entirely possible that the microcosm we're seeing isn't reflective of the overall situation, and that the Mag'har are somehow misrepresenting the nature of their conflict and the degree to which the conversions among other Orcs are a product of coercion. We also don't quite know the full story behind the current conflict on Draenor. Let's not forget that our primary source for anything that goes on there is Geya'rah, who is markedly stoked on Grom—the former overseer of a hyperexpansionist regime—to a perturbing degree. It's entirely possible that the Mag'har are more a group of fringe reactionaries than we've been led to believe, and that the Lightbound only became so aggressive after the Mag'har began attacking their missionaries for posing a perceived threat to them. Regardless of the specifics of the situation, I'm definitely not inclined to believe that Yrel has become an irredeemable villain, and that the only recourse for her malfeasance is in her demise.

The readiness with which so many people accept Geya'rah and Grom's version of events just baffles me. That said, I do think that Yrel is pushing for cultural genocide of at least some Horde cultures, what with Shadowmoon void casters being part of the Mag'har as shown in Stormsong Valley and given Blackrock industrialism's impact on the environment.

[Berkilak]

I'm inclined to contest that Yrel is outwardly genocidal; if anything, she seems to be most interested in overseeing mass conversions, and we don't know whether or not those conversions entail any kind of cultural genocide or if the Orcs are otherwise maintaining their previously-existent social orders, tribal identities, and autonomy. It's entirely possible that the microcosm we're seeing isn't reflective of the overall situation, and that the Mag'har are somehow misrepresenting the nature of their conflict and the degree to which the conversions among other Orcs are a product of coercion. We also don't quite know the full story behind the current conflict on Draenor. Let's not forget that our primary source for anything that goes on there is Geya'rah, who is markedly stoked on Grom—the former overseer of a hyperexpansionist regime—to a perturbing degree. It's entirely possible that the Mag'har are more a group of fringe reactionaries than we've been led to believe, and that the Lightbound only became so aggressive after the Mag'har began attacking their missionaries for posing a perceived threat to them. Regardless of the specifics of the situation, I'm definitely not inclined to believe that Yrel has become an irredeemable villain, and that the only recourse for her malfeasance is in her demise.

It would be an incredibly unwise move to minimize the culpability of religious colonizers enforcing the fantasy equivalent of the white man’s burden. It’s pretty clear what’s going on. And it’s pretty clear what real world events are being referenced. It would certainly be a take to say, “Well, actually, they did a lot to help the Orcs!”

[Nymrohd]

It would be an incredibly unwise move to minimize the culpability of religious colonizers enforcing the fantasy equivalent of the white man’s burden. It’s pretty clear what’s going on. And it’s pretty clear what real world events are being referenced. It would certainly be a take to say, “Well, actually, they did a lot to help the Orcs!”

The analogy falls apart completely when you consider that those same orcs attempted genocide against said religious colonizers a scant few years earlier and a significant number of them allied with Satan and tried to destroy the planet.

[Berkilak]

The analogy falls apart completely when you consider that those same orcs attempted genocide against said religious colonizers a scant few years earlier and a significant number of them allied with Satan and tried to destroy the planet.

Their pretence isn’t revenge. That’s fair game. Their pretence is forcible conversion and cultural assimilation. Once you take that route, you better take care. Especially if nuance isn’t your strong suit in your writing.

[Revamp Man]

Then why do they all have completely different names from the incarnates? Plus the journal says these drakes just got reanimated by Galakrond's Blight

But yeah I don't think Iridikron gets killed, we can barely even touch him during the fight after all.

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Btw checking things on the PTR and I am just so very tired of watching my character be used yet again to screw things up just so I can even get a chance to see the story. Do the devs have a shame fetish?

Also why would Morchie ride on an infinite dragon? She IS an infinite dragon. If you are going to give away that she is Infinite, it is far more dramatic for her to transform than to just show up with one. And they don't even give the poor drake a name before we kill them.

According to the journal he leaves
He could be trying to corrupt Tyr its definitely a possibility and those dragons might be the identities of the incarnates before they got whatever turned them into incarnates. The models are literally just the incarnates without extra stuff which is what makes me think this.

As for galakrond we only know that his body corrupts everything around it even while dead and the incarnates were his allies. His body was described somewhere as absorbing the traits of whatever he ate...imagine if we actually got
Galakrond Aspect of Death

[guro-tchai]

the "existing threat" the Crusade helps us with is the politically fragmented Scourge, privatized by random ex-officials; start with a campy Stratholme exterminatus blast, end with a new free undead faction.
and get us a new napalm-spitting Hellscream.

[Teriz]

I'm inclined to contest that Yrel is outwardly genocidal; if anything, she seems to be most interested in overseeing mass conversions, and we don't know whether or not those conversions entail any kind of cultural genocide or if the Orcs are otherwise maintaining their previously-existent social orders, tribal identities, and autonomy. It's entirely possible that the microcosm we're seeing isn't reflective of the overall situation, and that the Mag'har are somehow misrepresenting the nature of their conflict and the degree to which the conversions among other Orcs are a product of coercion. We also don't quite know the full story behind the current conflict on Draenor. Let's not forget that our primary source for anything that goes on there is Geya'rah, who is markedly stoked on Grom—the former overseer of a hyperexpansionist regime—to a perturbing degree. It's entirely possible that the Mag'har are more a group of fringe reactionaries than we've been led to believe, and that the Lightbound only became so aggressive after the Mag'har began attacking their missionaries for posing a perceived threat to them. Regardless of the specifics of the situation, I'm definitely not inclined to believe that Yrel has become an irredeemable villain, and that the only recourse for her malfeasance is in her demise.

It's certainly possible that the Orcs are exaggerating what Yrel is doing, and its also possible that their portrayal of what's happening on Draenor is accurate. If Yrel turns out to be an antagonist, I would prefer the more dramatic version of her being a religious zealot who prefers light dominance over the cultural and spiritual freedom of others. That would make her a more frightful villain, and would be a nice change of pace from the cop out we got with Sylvanas. Let her die for her beliefs, and let her impact be dramatic and long lasting on Azeroth and the factions. I think that would resonate far more with people over another lukewarm villain who we ended up forgiving in the end despite all the crap they caused.

[Palapop]

Nothing. She's just wearing armour.

and that armor made her lose her boobs and increase leg size by 100% ? nah.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

It would be an incredibly unwise move to minimize the culpability of religious colonizers enforcing the fantasy equivalent of the white man’s burden. It’s pretty clear what’s going on. And it’s pretty clear what real world events are being referenced. It would certainly be a take to say, “Well, actually, they did a lot to help the Orcs!”

I don't think this can be said to be precisely analogous to the White Man's Burden simply on account of that the Draenei seem not to be presenting a very paternalistic attitude towards the Orcs; they seem to fill all of the same positions interchangeably, and there exists at least one Orcish Exarch. Provided that the initial conversions appear to have been more a consented response to missionary work rather than the product of the later forced conversions, the environment in which the sequence of events began appears to have been one of religious and cultural integration between the Draenei and Orcs, rather than one of coercion. This isn't to come off as apologia for the expansionism and forced conversion the Draenei are now conducting so much as a suggestion that the situation may be more complex than "evil Draenei oppress innocent Orcs". I highly doubt either party is really very innocent; my realistic expectation would be that as the Draenei became increasingly obtrusive, the Mag'har became increasingly reactionary, and this enabled bad actors among the Draenei to be taken seriously when they suggested a more violent approach to the conversion project, morphing what was initially an undertaking of evangelism into something more coercive in nature. I think the sensible situation is that neither faction are the good guys, nor is either faction wholly unjustified.

Now, admittedly, I say this as someone who enjoys nuance, which does admittedly put me in a precarious position in making any kind of predictions. In terms of what Blizzard's writers would do, as opposed to what would be nuanced and realistic, I'm sure there's a fair shot they'll just boil it down to "looool evil Draenei!!! We FLIPPED THE SCRIPT WE'RE SO CREATIVE!!!!" with no further nuance to it.

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and that armor made her lose her boobs and increase leg size by 100% ? nah.

... I don't think you can typically see a woman's breasts through plate armor. If you could, it would probably be very light and ineffective armor.

[Ersula]

The analogy falls apart completely when you consider that those same orcs attempted genocide against said religious colonizers a scant few years earlier and a significant number of them allied with Satan and tried to destroy the planet.

If that counts as "the same orcs" then the Draenei are also culpable for everything the Eredar did. You're being a bit lackidasical about what affiliations count & which don't.

[huth]

... I don't think you can typically see a woman's breasts through plate armor. If you could, it would probably be very light and ineffective armor.

In proper armour (including helmet), you probably wouldn't even be able to discern the wearer's sex at all.

And making the legs look considerably larger is definitely not out of the ordinary for proper plate greaves.

[Ielenia]

Being a zealot is not the same thing as being a villain. We spent an entire expansion helping build Yrel up to be a leader to the draenei people that her Velen would be proud of, back in Warlords of Draenor. It's unfair to her character to claim she will be an expansion villain (or lieutenant) just because of one singular, brief quest line.

I mean, I fully believe that Blizzard is capable of doing that, considering how they've destroyed Arthas and made Sylvanas into a "tortured innocent forced to do evil" character in Shadowlands, but it wouldn't change the fact it'd be unfair to her character.

[Nymrohd]

If that counts as "the same orcs" then the Draenei are also culpable for everything the Eredar did. You're being a bit lackidasical about what affiliations count & which don't.

What on earth? It very much is the same orcs. AU Grom led a draenei genocide, we see it in game. He just failed at it because we intervened. It is the exact same people from the WoD campaign. The ones that assaulted both Karabor and Shattrath, civilian centres, with weapons of mass destruction and enslaved countless draenei and dissident orcs.
Meanwhile the Sargerei among the AU Draenei are pretty much wiped out by the players.

[Ielenia]

If that counts as "the same orcs" then the Draenei are also culpable for everything the Eredar did. You're being a bit lackidasical about what affiliations count & which don't.

Uuuh... no. Those are the same orcs who brought genocide to the draenei back in alternate Draenor. They were an willing and eager part of the Iron Horde, the same Iron Horde that trampled over the Draenei and caused so many innocent deaths.

The very same orcs who captured draenei to use their souls to power up their newly built Dark Portal.