The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Teriz]

Uh, no. We had several sides. We had the orcs' side, the night elves' side, the draenei's side, the Titans' side, etc.


Except it is very relevant for your claim that "it's a fact she's doing evil stuff".

Wiping out a culture that you deem inferior is "doing evil stuff".

Again, it doesn't, because we have only one side of the story, and an incomplete side at best.

Again, you don't need the other side of the story if the other side is forcefully converting every other life form on the planet (which isn't even their planet).

We have no context.

Why do you need context when Yrel literally says "convert or die" in the scenario?

You can't "play it again", but I watched the video of the entire quest chain. This is what she says:
Yrel: "I have come to offer you one last chance to embrace the Light."
Yrel: "Your people are choking the life from this world... dooming the land to desiccation."
Yrel: "It pains me to lose an old friend, Grommash. But... very well. We will settle this your way."

Not to mention it's the so-called "evil side" that says "stop this bloodshed", while the "oppressed side" is the one that says "I want another exarch head to mount on my wall":

Why are you only showing half the dialogue?

Grommash Hellscream yells: They are too many! We cannot hold this line forever!
Overlord Geya'rah yells: We must! It is NOT our fate to fall to this corruption!

From the Lightbound lines, High Exarch Yrel calls out.
High Exarch Yrel yells: Grommash Hellscream. It has been a long time.
Grommash Hellscream yells: High Exarch. A rare... honor.
High Exarch Yrel yells: I have come to offer you one last chance to embrace the Light.
High Exarch Yrel yells: Your people are choking the life from this world... dooming the land to desiccation.
Grommash Hellscream yells: How can you be so blind, Yrel? It is the Light that has doomed this world!
High Exarch Yrel yells: It pains me to lose an old friend, Grommash. But... very well. We will settle this your way.

<Grommash lowers his voice so only the Mag'har can hear.>
Grommash Hellscream says: Geya'rah, get everyone out of here. Now. No questions.
Grommash Hellscream yells: For the Mag'har! For Draenor! Lok-tar ogar!

So let's move this exact conversation over to Azeroth, what if that were Thrall conversating with Yrel. Would you really sit here and say that Thrall is the bad guy here when Yrel would be attempting to completely eradicate Orcish culture and people from Azeroth?

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It could be the timeline just falling apart which would put the goats in the wrong but if the orcs were destroying the planet making them change there ways or stoping them by force would be perfectly justified just like opposing the legion is.

Yeah, but I don't believe the Orcs industrializing on one continent would decimate the entire planet. I do think the time stuff is the culprit. However the larger point is the zealotry on the side of the Draenei. They're on a literal crusade.

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Except... is there any actual evidence of genocide?

Yes. They're forcefully converting non-Draenei to the light. If they don't convert, they are killed.

[Marlamin]

Did I just wade through several pages of people bickering about lore again? I think I did.

Why exactly ARE you all arguing about Yrel? I literally couldn't be assed to read it all.

Blizzcon is gonna be very intriguing though, WoW is on such a good roll right now.

Yep, yet another tangent that has gone on for way too long and is absolutely devoid of speculation but instead going super deeply into history and people defending eachother's interpretations of it.

[Nymrohd]

Yep, yet another tangent that has gone on for way too long and is absolutely devoid of speculation but instead going super deeply into history and people defending eachother's interpretations of it.

Hey, several of us ARE trying to make it about speculation and scenarios on how it could be future content. Just specific people keep making it about themselves as always and others have to quote and post rebuttal sentence by sentence for pages on end. . . .
People could ignore the latter and try and offer further opinions on the former.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yeah, but I don't believe the Orcs industrializing on one continent would decimate the entire planet. I do think the time stuff is the culprit. However the larger point is the zealotry on the side of the Draenei. They're on a literal crusade.

isn’t the planet only two continents and the other is the oger empire we never got But ignoring that.

Honestly they should make it just time stuff being the cause and then both sides blame the other and go to extremes.

They even could do a light crusade after the mega dungeon next patch and make it so Yrel her self is unsure in invading Azeroth as it has none of the signs of dying like dreanor but Xera is still pushing super hard for the crusade and you have light bound orcs and goats who go with it meaning they could still salvage Yrel and bring her into the main universe after we smash Xera and fight a pimping light forged garrosh.

[Marlamin]

Hey, several of us ARE trying to make it about speculation and scenarios on how it could be future content. Just specific people keep making it about themselves as always and others have to quote and post rebuttal sentence by sentence for pages on end. . . .
People could ignore the latter and try and offer further opinions on the former.

Oh definitely, and I applaud that, but it barely gets through the noise of the back-and-forthers. Telling people to ignore those kind of things hasn't historically worked either because the back and forth is usually between only a few people who want to always get the last word in. But with the new story unlock(s) this week we should at least have a bit of distraction sometime tomorrow.

[Hardwing]

And it could very well be that neither side are actually killing the planet. The lore speculates that Draenor could actually be dying because of the time traveling that Garrosh did back in WoD with Kairoz.

Either way, it doesn't justify the genocide done by the Draenei on AU Draenor.

I agree! With the alternate timeline patch coming, I hope this will be adressed, even if just shortly.

"Genocide", doesn't seem the right word though. Crusade followed by mass brainwashing maybe. We very well might see a Lightbound Hellscream and Lantresor.

[Nymrohd]

Oh definitely, and I applaud that, but it barely gets through the noise of the back-and-forthers. Telling people to ignore those kind of things hasn't historically worked either because the back and forth is usually between only a few people who want to always get the last word in. But with the new story unlock(s) this week we should at least have a bit of distraction sometime tomorrow.

Yes, bring on Tyrigosa with her elven visage and her compulsory hot human male companion. Also Azuregos and his Kyrian girlfriend would be interesting to see after SL lore.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

IWe very well might see a Lightbound Hellscream and Lantresor.

Honestly this is the main reason I’d want a Yrel/AU crusade expan id kill to see light forged Garrosh.

[Ielenia]

What is relevant here is that if in 11.0 Blizzard changes current DPS specs to support ones, It would get a lot of hate. Unnecessary confrontation with your playerbase when they can create new specs and hype everyone.

I honestly doubt Blizzard is going to do that. But if Blizzard does do that, I think they'll most likely do just one singular spec, two at worst. Not to mention many classes' lore and theme doesn't really fit for a "support" spec, like mages, warriors, DHs, rogues, monks, etc.

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I mean it can simply mean that during or since the conflict that Yrel and the light crusade started, some exarch's heads were already taken, and gerayah being mad says that after hearing that the High Exarch herself appeared.

This conflict doesn't happen when we just get there, a lot of orcs could already be tortured and killed if they didn't join the light.

Or, in other words, like I've seen repeatedly saying so far: we're missing a lot of context here.

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Wiping out a culture that you deem inferior is "doing evil stuff".

Protecting the planet from a group of people who seem to not really care about what they are doing to said planet is hardly an "evil thing". At worst, it's 'self-defense'.

Again, you don't need the other side of the story if the other side is forcefully converting every other life form on the planet (which isn't even their planet).

Of which we have zero evidence of that happening. A claim is not evidence. A claim needs evidence.

Why do you need context when Yrel literally says "convert or die" in the scenario?

Because we don't have the full context. She literally claims that the orcs' doing is killing the planet. If that claim is correct, letting them continue doing what they're doing would be counter-productive to not only the draenei's safety, but to the safety of everyone in Draenor.

Why are you only showing half the dialogue?

Because, as I said I would, I wrote what Yrel said to the player and the Mag'har. I never said I would transcribe the entire conversation.

So let's move this exact conversation over to Azeroth, what if that were Thrall conversating with Yrel. Would you really sit here and say that Thrall is the bad guy here when Yrel would be attempting to completely eradicate Orcish culture and people from Azeroth?

That is completely not the same thing. It's apples and oranges. Thrall did not rally the Iron Horde to not only try to genocide the draenei, but also invade Azeroth to kill or conquer everything in their path. Thrall's way of life did not cause suffering to the land and threaten the well-being of the planet.

[Teriz]

isn’t the planet only two continents and the other is the oger empire we never got But ignoring that.

Honestly they should make it just time stuff being the cause and then both sides blame the other and go to extremes.

They even could do a light crusade after the mega dungeon next patch and make it so Yrel her self is unsure in invading Azeroth as it has none of the signs of dying like dreanor but Xera is still pushing super hard for the crusade and you have light bound orcs and goats who go with it meaning they could still salvage Yrel and bring her into the main universe after we smash Xera and fight a pimping light forged garrosh.

Yrel didn't start her crusade because Draenor was dying. She did it because the Naaru started pumping voices into her head, and told her she needed to create an army to stop the void. The goal isn't to save the world, the goal is to wipe out everything else except the light.

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Of which we have zero evidence of that happening. A claim is not evidence. A claim needs evidence.

From the horse's mouth;

Yrel: "I have come to offer you one last chance to embrace the Light."

We also have the Ogre quest at the beginning of the campaign. The Ogres were also hiding from the Lightbound but eventually join them because they see no other alternative.

Anyway, this is a pointless conversation because you absolutely refuse to listen to evidence that completely contradicts your point.

[Nightshade711]

Yrel didn't start her crusade because Draenor was dying. She did it because the Naaru started pumping voices into her head, and told her she needed to create an army to stop the void. The goal isn't to save the world, the goal is to wipe out everything else except the light.

That is some nice head canon in this future patch/expansion speculation thread.

[Teriz]

I agree! With the alternate timeline patch coming, I hope this will be adressed, even if just shortly.

"Genocide", doesn't seem the right word though. Crusade followed by mass brainwashing maybe. We very well might see a Lightbound Hellscream and Lantresor.

A crusade that leads to your conversion, brainwashing, or death alongside the obliteration of your culture definitely fits the definition of genocide. The brainwashing is pretty much becoming a slave. No different than N'Zoth or Yogg'Soron wiping away your brain and forcing you to serve them.

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That is some nice head canon in this future patch/expansion speculation thread.

Know your lore.

After Archimonde's fall, the orcs and draenei worked together to drive the Burning Legion from Draenor. The two peoples then lived in peace alongside each other for years. During this time, more naaru arrived on Draenor and, without demons to fight, the draenei became fixated upon the Light. At some point, Draenor began to deteriorate for unknown reasons. The Lightbound believed that the Mag'har orcs were choking the life from Draenor and dooming the land to desiccation, and blamed the Mag'har for the once-fertile land becoming lifeless dust,[12] while Grommash Hellscream believed that it was the Light that had doomed the planet. Having received visions from the Light Mother, the High Exarch knew that the Army of the Light would bring order to countless worlds in the Great Dark Beyond. But first, the Mag'har needed to be taught to trust the naaru as well, for they brought peace and order. The naaru compelled the draenei to spread their influence among the orcs.

The Lightbound sent sermons, explaining they wished for all the people of Draenor to be unified in purpose. Those resisting the Light were seen as an infection that prevented "Draenor's heart from being whole".[13] A few orcs converted to the Light willingly, but others had the Light forced upon them. Some orcs even sided with the draenei against their own kin, including Grommash's own son.[14] War followed, until the two sides found themselves in a stalemate in Gorgrond, where the Lightbound refused to attack Hellsreach Citadel.[12] Yrel confronted Grommash, referring to him as an old friend and attempting to get him to stand down. Grommash held her off while a group of Mag'har led by Overlord Geya'rah, daughter of Draka and the deceased Durotan, fled to Azeroth. The outcome of her fight with Grommash is unknown.[15]

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Yrel

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yrel didn't start her crusade because Draenor was dying. She did it because the Naaru started pumping voices into her head, and told her she needed to create an army to stop the void. The goal isn't to save the world, the goal is to wipe out everything else except the light

The crusade to fight the void never got off the ground so that doesn’t really matter, only why she’s fighting the rocs and why she would be fighting on Azeroth would matter.

She’s fighting the orcs because she thinks they are destroying the planet and she wants to “heal the heart of it” and if she came to Azeroth that wouldn’t be a thing which would give her a reason to doubt and with people like Velan who have also seen visions of fighting the void without forcefully converting people and Turyalon who already knows following the Narru isn’t every thing it would be perfect priming for her to falter and then come over to our side and we even have a stand in endnboss with light forged Garrosh and Xera as a mirror to his SoO fight.

[Ielenia]

From the horse's mouth;

That is not evidence that the draenei are "forcefully converting". This is literally the orcs' last stand where they prefer to fight to the end of their lives instead of stopping what they're doing that is allegedly killing the planet.

Again, the state of the mag'har's area around them supports the draenei's claim that what they're doing is killing the planet, considering it's all barren and looks... gloomy.

We also have the Ogre quest at the beginning of the campaign. The Ogres were also hiding from the Lightbound but eventually join them because they see no other alternative.

Which doesn't mean the draenei are "forcefully converting" others. And since you spoke of the ogres, why don't we talk about the mag'har's own diplomatic skills being used on the ogres?



"Join me or die". It really sounds like the words of someone who is truly being "oppressed" and is against "forceful conversions", doesn't it?

Anyway, this is a pointless conversation because you absolutely refuse to listen to evidence that completely contradicts your point.

I will see the evidence when you actually provide some.

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Know your lore.



https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Yrel

I'm amused that your quote is full of annotations and references, and yet the part you bolded on the first paragraph has no reference, and I can't think of anywhere where that supposed part of the lore was said.

Also, the second bolded part literally is what we were talking about, about having no context. We only have the orcs' clam that some were forcefully converted.

[Luck4]

AU Draenor is just the opposite of MU, in MU Draenor the Orcs using Fel slaughtered the Draenei, and in AU Draenor is the Draenei using Light that slaughtered the Orcs.

I think it's a good approach. Yrel FTW! I can't wait to see her again!

[Raetary]

Soooo.... what are we expecting from the Blues quests this week?

[CopyX1982]

Soooo.... what are we expecting from the Blues quests this week?

that fancy armour set, similar to the obsidian one we got from the story quests in the caverns.

[Teriz]

AU Draenor is just the opposite of MU, in MU Draenor the Orcs using Fel slaughtered the Draenei, and in AU Draenor is the Draenei using Light that slaughtered the Orcs.

I think it's a good approach. Yrel FTW! I can't wait to see her again!

Yep, and instead of Draenor being destroyed by Fel, it gets destroyed by the Light.

I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s exactly the route Blizzard takes.

No point bickering over it now. We’ll see what happens soon enough.

[Nymrohd]

Soooo.... what are we expecting from the Blues quests this week?

Well I expect to see Blue dragon NPCs. So I expect Azuregos, Halegosa (last known Consort of Malygos) and Tyrigosa (Kalec's original fiance) to show up, maybe Jorad to make an appearance. He did call them all and some of them probably were further away.
Now Tyri MIGHT bring some Nether dragons with her. Then between Azuregos and Haleh we should be able to find out wtf Vakthros is given they are both ancient.

[Darkarath]

Soooo.... what are we expecting from the Blues quests this week?

Good question, actually. I am sure that is going to be about them coming together again, and I suppose that they would have to face a challenging situation that makes them come together. Hopefully they manage to throw there something about the relation between Malygos and Neltarion. I would love to see Malygos again, in any form, although it is unlikely. I guess that if that was the case we would already have a datamined model.

I would like that an Incarnate mess with them, kill someone, something dramatic. We will see.