The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

I really like this idea.

Rather than unlock the whole continent in 11.0, I think it would make a shit ton more sense to set up a EK/Kali sized continent, and have that be the basis for multiple expansions where the lore is built and expanded upon and it slowly gets unlocked over time. I know the usual characters will say this would be 'too samey' or something like that but honestly, there is absolutely no reason why you couldn't have more cosmically influenced zones / areas within such a large space. It would give them more room to fully flesh things out too rather than just a spontaneous 'LOOK NEW ISLAND'.

I know this isn't going to happen because it would make me far too happy.

While I don't expect Avaloren to be Kalimdor sized, I would hope it is a large area. Finding plausible reasons to split the continent up while retaining flight would let the final continent be large without forcing them to deliver everything in one go. Start with one big zone, add more at expansion release, have two more locked and available later in the expansion. 7 DF-sized zones would make for a fairly large continent.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

so yeah... it's just that art of Yrel could be done better. increasing boobs size (actually drawing SOME boobs there) and reducing her legs size by roughly.... 60%.

So, you're suggesting that the smart idea is for someone to wear armor that would be precisely designed to guide a blade down through their chest?

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So here is a concept.
What if 10.3's zone was in Avaloren with most of the continent hidden. You'd have the raid and everything in a part of a new continent that is OUTSIDE whatever shield is covering that place. The raid would be about preventing Iridikron and/or Murozond from getting inside but at the end of the raid the shield would be damaged and in the pre expansion event we would be taking the shield down.

I really like this. I second this.

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I really like this idea.

Rather than unlock the whole continent in 11.0, I think it would make a shit ton more sense to set up a EK/Kali sized continent, and have that be the basis for multiple expansions where the lore is built and expanded upon and it slowly gets unlocked over time. I know the usual characters will say this would be 'too samey' or something like that but honestly, there is absolutely no reason why you couldn't have more cosmically influenced zones / areas within such a large space. It would give them more room to fully flesh things out too rather than just a spontaneous 'LOOK NEW ISLAND'.

I know this isn't going to happen because it would make me far too happy.

That is immensely appealing to me. It would allow Blizzard to gradually develop a larger, Vanilla-scale continent from the ground-up while maintaining their usual standards for the scale of a continent at the start of a new expansion.

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Being a zealot is not the same thing as being a villain. We spent an entire expansion helping build Yrel up to be a leader to the draenei people that her Velen would be proud of, back in Warlords of Draenor. It's unfair to her character to claim she will be an expansion villain (or lieutenant) just because of one singular, brief quest line.

I mean, I fully believe that Blizzard is capable of doing that, considering how they've destroyed Arthas and made Sylvanas into a "tortured innocent forced to do evil" character in Shadowlands, but it wouldn't change the fact it'd be unfair to her character.

That's my feeling, as well. It seems grossly nonconstructive to reduce her to a one-dimensional, frothing lunatic whose only objective is to maximize the propagation of her associated Cosmic Force; why not allow her to integrate into the Alliance, giving them a bit more meat? She could serve as a more militant embodiment of the Light, whereas Turalyon could serve as a still-jingoistic but ultimately far more level-headed and diplomatic foil to her.

[Nymrohd]

That's my feeling, as well. It seems grossly nonconstructive to reduce her to a one-dimensional, frothing lunatic whose only objective is to maximize the propagation of her associated Cosmic Force; why not allow her to integrate into the Alliance, giving them a bit more meat? She could serve as a more militant embodiment of the Light, whereas Turalyon could serve as a still-jingoistic but ultimately far more level-headed and diplomatic foil to her.

One of the things with Yrel being used is that it create an opportunity for parts of Draenei lore to actually be showcased. I am still baffled that after TBC, Wod and Argus in Legion, we still have no idea what the Ata'mal Crystals are and where most of them currently are (with the Argus campaign coming up with an entirely new crystal to power the Xenedar instead). We have no idea what the Draenei did with O'ros body (and given the Naaru lifecycle that should be a pressing concern that could even explain their non-involvement in the War of Thorns; they may well have a soul sucking void bomb in their hands that needs to be contained yesterday after Legion; that's why Auchindoun and the Auchenei were created after all). And after being shown the structure of Draenei society in WoD, we still have not seen it replicated in Azeroth (nor have we seen possibly the most impressive architecture in the game be reused in Azuremyst and elsewhere).
If Yrel shows up, her foil is Velen, not Turalyon. Turalyon is most likely to join her until she threatens his wife or does something really horrible (and forced conversions probably don't count). Plus Velen's story practically finished in Legion and yet he is still around.

And here is an issue I see with FOUR of the Six Forces. Forced conversions. Order, Light, Void, Fel and Death all seem able to do this. Void does it by just existing. Fel can do it with ingesting demon blood. Order does the exact same thing with the Halls of Infusion. Death is a weird case; the conversion used on Anduin seemed very involved and took a lot of Zovaal's attention but pretty much every part of SL breaks souls and remolds them for use. Light seems to be by far the most constrained; only Xe'ra has shown the ability to Lightbind after all which means that mass forced conversions by the Light are unlikely. Only Life has so far escaped this trope and that is if we cannot count parasitic infestations by things like the Overgrowth taking over people.
Yet for some reason the playerbase uses this as a reason to condemn the Light even when almost every other force ALSO does this and does this at a vastly greater scale, especially Void.

[Shadowferal]

You guys are giving Yrel an immense amount of power. Gul'dan and Lich King levels...and while I submit that such a level is needed to justify creating an antagonist, it's so...Scarlet Crusade.

If they lean in that direction of bringing her forward they should flip the script and have everyone joining her zealots in opposing a greater evil. This would involve a lot of heavy lifting from the writers that should show some morally gray events...yeah..nevermind.

[Teriz]

We experienced one side of the story, at best.

Which is irrelevant. Blizzard has made it clear that Yrel's force is a threat. They made that clear by having an entire race flee their home world to escape that threat.

I sincerely doubt Blizzard is going to reach into WoD again just to bring arakkoa and ogres into the playable factions. Especially since the arakkoa don't really lean toward any of the factions. At best, they fit the Horde. None of those two really fit the Alliance.

The same could have been said of Night Elves or Worgen before they were put into the Alliance.

And they're not reaching into WoD just to pull out those races. They're reaching into WoD to pull a popular character as an expansion antagonist.

And it's precisely our story with her in WoD that makes no sense for her to fall into villainy. Again: she's supposed to grow into a competent leader who Velen would be proud of. That was her entire arc in WoD. To say it should be undone because of the story told by one side is... nonsensical.

You can't see a scenario where someone becomes so fearful of the Void that they believe that the light is the only salvation and everything else needs to be eradicated so that the light dominates everything else? There's real life examples of formerly good people doing exactly what Yrel would be doing via their insane religions convictions. People do evil stuff in the name of religion constantly and throughout history.

I should remind you that we're talking about the same orcs who waged genocidal war, completely unprovoked, against the draenei. And their leader (at least in Draenor) was the very orc who orchestrated and led the genocide against the draenei. For all we know the conversion might not be coerced despite what one side of the story tells us.

And the Horde champion experienced Yrel going psycho town themselves. That's Blizzard's way of telling you that yes, that plucky Draenei you knew back in WoD is crazy now.

A race being "playable' or not does not preclude their leaders (or VIPs) from lying, misrepresenting or exaggerating a story.

Again, the Horde champion (the player) experienced Yrel being evil first hand.

So is Thrall, Jaina, Illidan, Malfurion, etc. Being powerful doesn't mean one is a "threat". Again, the side of the story being told in the Mag'har recruitment scenario goes directly against the story being told in WoD if taken at face value.

They would be a threat if they sought to force others into their religion by the sword. That is what Yrel is doing.

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You guys are giving Yrel an immense amount of power. Gul'dan and Lich King levels...and while I submit that such a level is needed to justify creating an antagonist, it's so...Scarlet Crusade.

If they lean in that direction of bringing her forward they should flip the script and have everyone joining her zealots in opposing a greater evil. This would involve a lot of heavy lifting from the writers that should show some morally gray events...yeah..nevermind.

It's the Naaru (multiple Naaru if the lore is accurate) with their technology and a huge army composed of Draenei, Orcs, and Ogres. That's a pretty significant threat.

Turalyon, Velen, and the Draenei would be prime candidates for causing fissures within the alliance. As would the light-aligned forsaken within the Horde.

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I mean this is kinda the horde MO since BFA with things like Saurfang agreeing to start the war because the alliance under anduin might wipe them out or Rexxar saying he has to stop Jiana for being like her father when literally all she had done was help the alliance try and stop sylvanas after a genocide.

The Mag’har being full of it and actually having started the conflict and being the ones destroying the world while the goats just said enough is enough would be in brand.

Well again, the pressing issue is that we also saw Yrel's zealotry first hand. She gave us no recourse other than conversion, and when we refused, she sent her massive army to attack us. That is an evil act. While the Horde can be viewed as morally shaky at times, the Horde Champion isn't supposed to be. The Horde Champion is supposed to be as noble, moral, and ethical as their Alliance counterpart.

[huth]

There’s nothing wrong with blizzard making practical armour armour from time to time instead of silly things like judgement which is just a robe with some holy seals we pretend is plate or what ever that goat is wearing that looks like mail and is begging to be gutted.

You mean the scale mail of "please stab me in the gut"?

Also worth noting that for plate, what is behind it doesn't matter - those are solid metal plates. They don't deform to be form-fitting. Doing that takes an armoursmith and a hammer.

And why do you not count Legion? That should very much count, as it was crucial in Zovaal's plot, especially regarding Argus.

Because that isn't actually relevant to the point, that being that Zovaal as a character was only introduced with SL. Things were attributed to him after the fact but he wasn't the only option up to that point.

Not sure where you're even trying to go with the other part. You're just reiterating my point. They weren't established prior to DF, thus proving that isn't a requrement.

[Lolites]

Night elves have always used them, spellbreakers/spellblades among highborne elves also use them. Heck you could make it an elven racial.

tbh it should be available to all who could use warglaive of azinoth, so DH, DK, war, rogue, monk

[Shadowferal]

Night elves have always used them, spellbreakers/spellblades among highborne elves also use them. Heck you could make it an elven racial.

A Nightelf Warden spec...yes, I see that making extraordinary sense to me. (Been tossing back and forth with the death knight image I've long had as my "superman" toon, with paladin ranking 2nd. The "Warden" in this regard can make the grade in a more "nature magic" way)

[Nymrohd]

You guys are giving Yrel an immense amount of power. Gul'dan and Lich King levels...and while I submit that such a level is needed to justify creating an antagonist, it's so...Scarlet Crusade.

If they lean in that direction of bringing her forward they should flip the script and have everyone joining her zealots in opposing a greater evil. This would involve a lot of heavy lifting from the writers that should show some morally gray events...yeah..nevermind.

Not Yrel. Xe'ra. The older Naaru are supposedly immensely powerful. Xe'ra was only killed by Illidan because she had just woken up after open heart surgery. T'uure could produce enough Light to cover an entire planet and banish a Void Lord; the lore says the same about A'dal and Xe'ra should be stronger than either of them.
Plus we have seen the level of technology that the Army of Light has access to when there is a pitiful number of them. A massive version of that same army should be a worthy adversary.

But yeah, I gave a format of how I'd see such an expac and imo first two tiers should be Yrel helping us against a different evil with X.1.5 showing the factions reacting to something extreme happening at the end of the X.1 raid and then last two tiers fighting against Yrel's forces with maybe faction converts in one tier and Yrel and Xe'ra in the last one.

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A Nightelf Warden spec...yes, I see that making extraordinary sense to me. (Been tossing back and forth with the death knight image I've long had as my "superman" toon, with paladin ranking 2nd. The "Warden" in this regard can make the grade in a more "nature magic" way)

Wardens are pretty damn interesting. For an anti-magic unit they use a LOT of weird magic; they have multiple clone and shadow techniques. Imo they are probably a far lesser version of the Night Warrior's power. I could see some of those skills added to Subtlety and having Night Warden work that way.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Well again, the pressing issue is that we also saw Yrel's zealotry first hand. She gave us no recourse other than conversion, and when we refused, she sent her massive army to attack us. That is an evil act. While the Horde can be viewed as morally shaky at times, the Horde Champion isn't supposed to be. The Horde Champion is supposed to be as noble, moral, and ethical as their Alliance counterpart.

We see her say the orcs are destroying the world and have to be stopped one way or another, If she were right then stopping the orcs would be no different then fighting the legion or the iron horde where there is no recourse other then standing down or death.

The horde champion is also the person who can side with sylvanas take part in the war of thorns experiment on POW’s bash trapped humans in the head with shovels, ect. Like even in the maghar quest it has you dealing with rebelling slaves I think, They ain’t moral or ethical.

[Teriz]

We see her say the orcs are destroying the world and have to be stopped one way or another, If she were right then stopping the orcs would be no different then fighting the legion or the iron horde where there is no recourse other then standing down or death.

And the Orcs believed that the massive influx of Naaru doomed Draenor (which honestly made more sense). Either way, is the solution the eradication of all non-Draenei culture and religion on Draenor via getting brainwashed? The Draenei came to believe that the Orcs were an infestation on their own world.

The horde champion is also the person who can side with sylvanas take part in the war of thorns experiment on POW’s bash trapped humans in the head with shovels, ect. They ain’t moral or ethical.

Yeah, we’ll just call that bad writing on Blizzard’s part, among other issues. The Horde Champion is supposed to be a hero like their Alliance counterpart.

[Darkarath]

Ehhh.... they did make Survival from ranged into melee. That's the most obvious go-to answer.

Then we have the death knight. Those who enjoyed Unholy or Frost tanking in Wrath were forced to now move to Blood if they wanted to continue tanking, and those who liked blood DPS back in Wrath were forced to now go to Frost or Unholy for DPS.

And then we have the monk's Mistweaver spec, which went from the usual mistweaving healer to now needing to go fistweaving to be competitive.

IMO none of the examples given are comparable to what would be to change a current spec to a support one.

As I already stated, Survival changed from ranged DPS to melee DPS. So it stayed as a DPS spec. It is unlikely for me that Blizzard would change existing specs to support ones for the following reasons:

- There are people that enjoy current specs (Survival, Discipline, Enhancement...). Changing a spec to support would inevitably change how that spec is played. Some might enjoy it, but certainly a lot of players would miss how that spec used to be, and they would not be able to play the spec that they miss again. Backlash would come, and it is an absolutely unnecessary backlash, as Blizzard can create new specs.

- There are people that enjoy their DPS role. I say DPS, because if Augmentation Evoker is how a support role would work in WoW, it seems that DPS specs would be the support specs. Not healers, not tanks, but DPS. They might make a healer support in the future, but for now we just have Augmentation. If a DPS spec is changed to Support, even if we do not take into account my first point, that spec would lose between 20-40% of its DPS damage. I think that Augmentation Evoker does around 30% less damage than Devastation, so I guess that they are going with that direction in mind. There would be, again, inevitably, players that would feel veeeery bad about this. So again, Blizzard would be creating unnecessary backlash.

- What would be more attractive for us, as players? Look at all the hype that Augmentation Evoker has created. A new spec would always be a win-win situation for Blizzard. Many would want to try it out. But if you change a current spec to another role, for sure part of the playerbase is going to complain about it. It seems that Blizzard is getting smarter these days (actually, the WoW team, not Blizzard), so I do not think that they would make that mistake.

[Nymrohd]

IMO none of the examples given are comparable to what would be to change a current spec to a support one.

As I already stated, Survival changed from ranged DPS to melee DPS. So it stayed as a DPS spec. It is unlikely for me that Blizzard would change existing specs to support ones for the following reasons:

- There are people that enjoy current specs (Survival, Discipline, Enhancement...). Changing a spec to support would inevitably change how that spec is played. Some might enjoy it, but certainly a lot of players would miss how that spec used to be, and they would not be able to play the spec that they miss again. Backlash would come, and it is an absolutely unnecessary backlash, as Blizzard can create new specs.

- There are people that enjoy their DPS role. I say DPS, because if Augmentation Evoker is how a support role would work in WoW, it seems that DPS specs would be the support specs. Not healers, not tanks, but DPS. They might make a healer support in the future, but for now we just have Augmentation. If a DPS spec is changed to Support, even if we do not take into account my first point, that spec would lose between 20-40% of its DPS damage. I think that Augmentation Evoker does around 30% less damage than Devastation, so I guess that they are going with that direction in mind. There would be, again, inevitably, players that would feel veeeery bad about this. So again, Blizzard would be creating unnecessary backlash.

- What would be more attractive for us, as players? Look at all the hype that Augmentation Evoker has created. A new spec would always be a win-win situation for Blizzard. Many would want to try it out. But if you change a current spec to another role, for sure part of the playerbase is going to complain about it. It seems that Blizzard is getting smarter these days (actually, the WoW team, not Blizzard), so I do not think that they would make that mistake.

Heck I'd say this. Making a new spec for an existing class and completely changing how a spec works is very much the same amount of work. Class talent tree needs to be redone. Spec tree needs to be redone completely. New SFX needs to be created for the new spells. Mogs stay the same. The only differences are:
a) you have to design one additional tier set
b) you have to balance one additional spec
Now obviously these two are not minor. But they are negligible compared to creating an entire new class (which needs multiple specs, base class and spec skills, talent trees, its own mogs etc). Up front, changing a spec and adding a spec requires nearly the same resources.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And the Orcs believed that the massive influx of Naaru doomed Draenor (which honestly made more sense). Either way, is the solution the eradication of all non-Draenei culture and religion on Draenor via getting brainwashed? The Draenei came to believe that the Orcs were an infestation on their own world.

if the goats are right and the orcs are destroying the planet which they kinda have a track record of doing unlike the light then ya destroying there culture would be the solution given what it’s lead to in both the main universe and AU.

Yeah, we’ll just call that bad writing on Blizzard’s part, among other issues. The Horde Champion is supposed to be a hero like their Alliance counterpart.

the campion would still be a hero just one from the perspective of the horde and given how consistently awful some of the horde has been they have been since classic that just makes there heroly duty’s includes being unethical

[ImTheMizAwesome]

if the goats are right and the orcs are destroying the planet which they kinda have a track record of doing unlike the light then ya destroying there culture would be the solution given what it’s lead to in both the main universe and AU.

I mean, AU goats might think that orcs are destroying the planet only because they don't want to convert to light, i woldn't want that either.

[RahEndymion]

While I don't expect Avaloren to be Kalimdor sized, I would hope it is a large area. Finding plausible reasons to split the continent up while retaining flight would let the final continent be large without forcing them to deliver everything in one go. Start with one big zone, add more at expansion release, have two more locked and available later in the expansion. 7 DF-sized zones would make for a fairly large continent.

Agreed.

The problem with the Island system is that it just worsens the narrative gap between expansions, especially for new players. If we assume that the 'dark side of Azeroth' is actually equivalent in size there or thereabouts to the current world map, and half of that was filled with a land mass, I think it would be really easy to design a workable outline of a mega continent.

If we include a lot of wilderness areas, perhaps literally empty with just creatures, they could even have the zones change over time (patch x.x has horde/ally camps pop up and eventually towns) and simultaneously give the impression of a real living and breathing world like vanilla.

There are plenty of thematic and practical ways to limit it to a 'expansion' sized area to start. Perhaps a giant in universe wall, manned by a culture that isn't part of the initial expansion, or perhaps a geographic barrier? Like the mists of MoP but actually shown in game. Maybe the 2nd release in this system has a giant inland lake at the edge of the border that can't be crossed because flying fatigue so you have to wait for the factions to literally build boats in land?

I would like to think that the dev's are working on something like this. Something truly ever-green but I very much doubt I am that lucky.

[JustMakingOnePost]

Legion introduced the Shadowlands with the new Chronicles book and setting up Sylvanas's handler. Two expansions later, we got Shadowlands.

Battle for Azeroth introduced the Dragon Isles into proper lore by having Wrathion go off looking for them. Two expansions later, we got Dragonflight.

Shadowlands introduced Turaylon as the leader of the Alliance (and dialogue of him discussing more Alliance lands to reconquer since they secured Stromgarde) as well as the Scarlet Brotherhood seeking to manipulate the Alliance. We also already knew Turalyon's god-mentor, Xe'ra the Light Mother, is leading Yrel's crusade across Draenor. Calia taking the throne of Lordaeron (which has since been retaken by the Forsaken) was warned about by Il'gynoth. We'll be seeing this in 11.0.

Dragonflight introduced Avaloren and the whole pirate fleet. We'll be seeing this in 12.0.

The Light expansion will introduce what comes after Avaloren. Avaloren will decide what comes after that.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I mean, AU goats might think that orcs are destroying the planet only because they don't want to convert to light, i woldn't want that either.

I’d hope blizzard would give them something legit to think the orcs are responsible even if they are wrong.

Like even the scarlet crusade thought every one else was infected by the plague even if they didn’t look like it so the goats having worse motivation then them would just be sad.

[Shadowferal]

I mean, AU goats might think that orcs are destroying the planet only because they don't want to convert to light, i woldn't want that either.

Um...Gul'dan says "Hi!"

[Nathanyel]

The horde champion is also the person who can side with sylvanas take part in the war of thorns experiment on POW’s bash trapped humans in the head with shovels, ect. Like even in the maghar quest it has you dealing with rebelling slaves I think, They ain’t moral or ethical.

The loyalist choice was an experiment because players had complained about always being shoehorned into the "good hero" role.
And the shovel quest was rather the exception that proves the rule, one of the literally only handful of quests where you can be unquestionably evil. Other than that, the game assumes you're a well-meaning helping hero, even if you're a Warlock, Death Knight or Demon Hunter.