1. #63661
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherry123 View Post
    I wonder what it means "harbinger quest" mean?
    Campaign quests setting up Xal'atath and the TWW storyline.

    Xal is the Harbinger.



  2. #63662
    Quote Originally Posted by Woggmer View Post
    Are they even gonna do those animated shorts anymore? I mean the guy that did those shorts and much of cinematic stuff for WoW (up until DF's cinematic) left the company just a few weeks ago.
    I don't see why not. They might not look the same, but I doubt Blizzard will simply ignore how much publicity they get from them. Especially on YouTube where they do really well.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  3. #63663
    Quote Originally Posted by Raetary View Post
    Campaign quests setting up Xal'atath and the TWW storyline.

    Xal is the Harbinger.
    I'm just surprised this isn't a pre-patch part.

  4. #63664
    Herald of the Titans Hugnomo's Avatar
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    As an Evoker I'm pretty excited by the hero talents.
    And as a whole, I quite like the system. But I'm not out here trying to do top1% players gameplay or doing the hardest possible content, and I certainly understand the complaints from those players perspective. Though I would argue that picking a race, a class or spec is already a gameplay choice tied to flavor/lore/aesthetics, and players have been living with those for 20 years.

    I feel that, if you're that very small percent of players vying for the top of the top, you understand that fantasy and flavor will not be a priority.
    I think that if the system is viable for most of the content and for most players then it's a success.

    I think that, for this system, they should be more transformative with the hero talents offered, both visually and gameplay wise, while maybe having an option for a more generic improvement to the spec so it's not tied to a specific fantasy that the player might not want to play.

    I do think they should go for more iconic stuff like blademaster, witch doctor, warden, etc in the future. If they're willing to give an active new spell as a core talent for these trees, I don't see why blademaster couldn't be feasible.

    Honestly I think it's a wonderful way to add more fantasy, fresh gameplay, etc, without more bloat and balancing, considering it's a spec choice with limited points.

  5. #63665
    Im not going to write paragraphs about my problems with the system, but after seeing the blizzcon preview of mountain thane, and then readinf the pack leader tree. Its hard to imagine its going to look any good. I have a hard time imagining some of these looking good at all, and wish they didnt emphasise on the visual quality so much ich of them at the time. Maybe when we can start seeing some of them visually they will pleasantly surprise.

  6. #63666
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    He was only directing the actual high-fidelity cinematics, and importantly, he did not direct the Shadowlands one (which was by no means bad direction-wise, even if the writing was debatable) so it's not like there won't be any cinematics anymore.

    We don't actually know who made the Warbringer-esque shorts, but there is nothing that implies we wont get any more of those.
    the guy that did warbringers: jaina (the best one) also left.

  7. #63667
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugnomo View Post
    As an Evoker I'm pretty excited by the hero talents.
    And as a whole, I quite like the system. But I'm not out here trying to do top1% players gameplay or doing the hardest possible content, and I certainly understand the complaints from those players perspective. Though I would argue that picking a race, a class or spec is already a gameplay choice tied to flavor/lore/aesthetics, and players have been living with those for 20 years.

    I feel that, if you're that very small percent of players vying for the top of the top, you understand that fantasy and flavor will not be a priority.
    I think that if the system is viable for most of the content and for most players then it's a success.

    I think that, for this system, they should be more transformative with the hero talents offered, both visually and gameplay wise, while maybe having an option for a more generic improvement to the spec so it's not tied to a specific fantasy that the player might not want to play.

    I do think they should go for more iconic stuff like blademaster, witch doctor, warden, etc in the future. If they're willing to give an active new spell as a core talent for these trees, I don't see why blademaster couldn't be feasible.

    Honestly I think it's a wonderful way to add more fantasy, fresh gameplay, etc, without more bloat and balancing, considering it's a spec choice with limited points.
    I feel that where the hammer is going to land when it comes to Hero Talents is less so relative power, and more so that some are just not that interesting thematically or visually.

    Take the Deathbringer and Rider of the Apocalypse hero talents for instance. Why would the casual player choose Deathbringer for any reason besides it potentially being tubed higher, or marginally better for M+ or whatever, when Rider lets you have mounted combat and generally look badass?

    Tuning can easily change hero talents from awful to meta in a heartbeat. But a hotfix is not going to make a visually unimpressive hero talents into an amazing one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nibelheimy View Post
    Im not going to write paragraphs about my problems with the system, but after seeing the blizzcon preview of mountain thane, and then readinf the pack leader tree. Its hard to imagine its going to look any good. I have a hard time imagining some of these looking good at all, and wish they didnt emphasise on the visual quality so much ich of them at the time. Maybe when we can start seeing some of them visually they will pleasantly surprise.
    You can easily tell that there were some standout ideas that simply ooze flavour and theming from every pore, and then a bunch of hastily cobbled together ideas made to fill the quota of a hero spec for every spec.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  8. #63668
    Laurel Austin did a lot of the art for Lords of War/Harbingers/Warbringers/etc. along with a lot of the earlier Hearthstone patch art. She left Blizzard a few months before Shadowlands launched. Her style was pretty distinct and defined a lot of that early-mid 2010s era of Warcraft to me.

  9. #63669
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Uh look at Pack Leader and the DH hero tree. They're uninspired and legit terrible. You're telling me Blizzard is going to come up with MORE talent trees when many of the trees in the initial group looks bland and are stretching the concept?

    Also again what happens when you like a hero tree? What if you like Dark Ranger? Is that tree simply going to stop getting talents at level 80 and you gotta start speccing into a new hero tree? What happens to your old DR talents? Do they just disappear?

    Again, it makes more sense to simply expand the existing hero trees going forward and make them better. If you like Dark Ranger now, you can keep being a Dark Ranger until Blizzard stops supporting WoW.
    That's the thing about inspiration, you can't count on it happening. Just because these aren't creative doesn't mean they can never think of better ideas in the future. Honestly some players won't want a hero tree that radically changes their rotation.

    As for talents, I'm assuming we won't be getting more from 80-100, just more trees. That seems to be the whole point of hero talents; if you keep giving people additional abilities, you then eventually have to take them away, but like subclasses in D&D 5e, you can just keep giving players an infinite selection of alternative kits. Say, for example, by 13.0, Hunters have Dark Ranger, Packleader, Sentinal, Farstrider, Sharpshooter & Cannoneer. Then by the time the worldsoul saga is over, they'll be a level squish & they'll either keep doing this or design something entirely new.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkarath View Post
    I honestly think that adding more Hero Talents will make things worse. Imagine how many possibilities they will have to balance just between classes, specs, and now Hero Talents, plus new visuals for all that.
    They have directly addressed that power creep & pruning is a problem. I guess maybe they haven't realized hero talents are their perfect out for this, but its a pretty safe bet that purpose is the entire reason they were created.

    Since TBC, they've given players new abiltities so they can feel more powerful, but then a few expansions later realized they then had to take abilities away. Then the solution was "borrowed power:" New abiltiies you would only have for the duration of an expansion. Hero Talents is a third option: Add new abilities for players to play with, but you just have to choose between which ones you want: Variety over addition.
    Last edited by Ersula; 2024-03-17 at 07:10 PM.

  10. #63670
    they shouldn't add more talents in midnight.

  11. #63671
    Scarab Lord Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    That's the thing about inspiration, you can't count on it happening. Just because these aren't creative doesn't mean they can never think of better ideas in the future. Honestly some players won't want a hero tree that radically changes their rotation.

    As for talents, I'm assuming we won't be getting more from 80-100, just more trees. That seems to be the whole point of hero talents; if you keep giving people additional abilities, you then eventually have to take them away, but like subclasses in D&D 5e, you can just keep giving players an infinite selection of alternative kits. Say, for example, by 13.0, Hunters have Dark Ranger, Packleader, Sentinal, Farstrider, Sharpshooter & Cannoneer. Then by the time the worldsoul saga is over, they'll be a level squish & they'll either keep doing this or design something entirely new.
    They have directly addressed that power creep & pruning is a problem. I guess maybe they haven't realized hero talents are their perfect out for this, but its a pretty safe bet that purpose is the entire reason they were created.

    Since TBC, they've given players new abiltities so they can feel more powerful, but then a few expansions later realized they then had to take abilities away. Then the solution was "borrowed power:" New abiltiies you would only have for the duration of an expansion. Hero Talents is a third option: Add new abilities for players to play with, but you just have to choose between which ones you want: Variety over addition.
    Idk, everything you said is your own interpretation because they never said they would do what you think they will do, the only thing that's for sure is that the hero specs are planned to be evergreen (atleast for the WSS). Going deeper makes far more sense than adding even more hero specs although they can't even design the ones from TWW properly because some classes just don't have enough stuff to make good, interesting hero specs with lore relevance. Also adding even more hero specs would be a balancing nightmare aswell.

  12. #63672
    The Lightbringer Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    As for talents, I'm assuming we won't be getting more from 80-100, just more trees. That seems to be the whole point of hero talents; if you keep giving people additional abilities, you then eventually have to take them away, but like subclasses in D&D 5e, you can just keep giving players an infinite selection of alternative kits. Say, for example, by 13.0, Hunters have Dark Ranger, Packleader, Sentinal, Farstrider, Sharpshooter & Cannoneer. Then by the time the worldsoul saga is over, they'll be a level squish & they'll either keep doing this or design something entirely new.
    They have directly addressed that power creep & pruning is a problem. I guess maybe they haven't realized hero talents are their perfect out for this, but its a pretty safe bet that purpose is the entire reason they were created.

    Since TBC, they've given players new abiltities so they can feel more powerful, but then a few expansions later realized they then had to take abilities away. Then the solution was "borrowed power:" New abiltiies you would only have for the duration of an expansion. Hero Talents is a third option: Add new abilities for players to play with, but you just have to choose between which ones you want: Variety over addition.
    I could see them doing some interesting things with this new system too if they wanted.

    Like in Midnight they could do a set of void themed hero talents for everyone.

  13. #63673
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Idk, everything you said is your own interpretation because they never said they would do what you think they will do, the only thing that's for sure is that the hero specs are planned to be evergreen (atleast for the WSS). Going deeper makes far more sense than adding even more hero specs although they can't even design the ones from TWW properly because some classes just don't have enough stuff to make good, interesting hero specs with lore relevance. Also adding even more hero specs would be a balancing nightmare aswell.
    This is a speculation thread. I am speculating. Secondly, you really think being forced to add bigger bedrock talents to every spec is better for balancing then adding a new selection of mini-gimmicks? Because I don't.

  14. #63674
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I feel that where the hammer is going to land when it comes to Hero Talents is less so relative power, and more so that some are just not that interesting thematically or visually.

    Take the Deathbringer and Rider of the Apocalypse hero talents for instance. Why would the casual player choose Deathbringer for any reason besides it potentially being tubed higher, or marginally better for M+ or whatever, when Rider lets you have mounted combat and generally look badass?

    Tuning can easily change hero talents from awful to meta in a heartbeat. But a hotfix is not going to make a visually unimpressive hero talents into an amazing one.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You can easily tell that there were some standout ideas that simply ooze flavour and theming from every pore, and then a bunch of hastily cobbled together ideas made to fill the quota of a hero spec for every spec.
    Deathbringer could have cool scythe visuals that make it satisfying to pilot, but in general I agree with your points. Dark Ranger is a fantasy people want to play. Pack Leader, well, isn't. Slayer is kind of nondescript where Mountain Thane has a clear identity, even if one too tied to one race for me to feel entirely comfortable with everyone having it.

    That said, to be fair there's wins and misses in terms of flavor with everything Blizzard adds; not every race, class or spec is equally popular after all. But I do think some of the selections are really kind of low-effort and they could have done better.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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  15. #63675
    Herald of the Titans Enrif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Deathbringer could have cool scythe visuals that make it satisfying to pilot, but in general I agree with your points. Dark Ranger is a fantasy people want to play. Pack Leader, well, isn't. Slayer is kind of nondescript where Mountain Thane has a clear identity, even if one too tied to one race for me to feel entirely comfortable with everyone having it.

    That said, to be fair there's wins and misses in terms of flavor with everything Blizzard adds; not every race, class or spec is equally popular after all. But I do think some of the selections are really kind of low-effort and they could have done better.
    I’m a main blood dk, so I will not even have the choice of rider. So I’m stuck with sanlayn or deathbringer. Deathbringer seems my choice so far.

    But this brings actually a problem with hero specs up, that is probably not addressed yet: what if both hero specs don’t fit what I want for my character? Is there an option to opt out of hero specs, because either would be mismatch to what I want from my character? And if there is a option to opt out, what will the player get on the power side for not choosing a hero spec?
    Example unholy dk:with sanlayn you get bloody effects and blood beasts, with rider you get the four horseman. I can see people who play unholy for the undead minion master fantasy. Both hero specs fail to deliver that and pull the fantasy away from that.
    Last edited by Enrif; 2024-03-17 at 09:32 PM.

  16. #63676
    Scarab Lord Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enrif View Post
    I’m a main blood dk, so I will not even have the choice of rider. So I’m stuck with sanlayn or deathbringer. Deathbringer seems my choice so far.

    But this brings actually a problem with hero specs up, that is probably not addressed yet: what if both hero specs don’t fit what I want for my character? Is there an option to opt out of hero specs, because either would be mismatch to what I want from my character? And if there is a option to opt out, what will the player get on the power side for not choosing a hero spec?
    Example unholy dk:with sanlayn you get bloody effects and blood beasts, with rider you get the four horseman. I can see people who play unholy for the undead minion master fantasy. Both hero specs fail to deliver that and pull the fantasy away from that.
    No, you can't opt out and get generic boni instead lol.

  17. #63677
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Idk, everything you said is your own interpretation because they never said they would do what you think they will do, the only thing that's for sure is that the hero specs are planned to be evergreen (atleast for the WSS). Going deeper makes far more sense than adding even more hero specs although they can't even design the ones from TWW properly because some classes just don't have enough stuff to make good, interesting hero specs with lore relevance. Also adding even more hero specs would be a balancing nightmare aswell.
    Thank you. I simply don't get why Blizzard would bring in something iconic like Keeper of the Grove or Dark Ranger as a hero tree and not continue them throughout WSS.

    Also when you hit 12.0 where do you go hero talent tree-wise after you've flushed KotG and Dark Ranger? Again, those are some pretty huge Warcraft concepts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nibelheimy View Post
    Im not going to write paragraphs about my problems with the system, but after seeing the blizzcon preview of mountain thane, and then readinf the pack leader tree. Its hard to imagine its going to look any good. I have a hard time imagining some of these looking good at all, and wish they didnt emphasise on the visual quality so much ich of them at the time. Maybe when we can start seeing some of them visually they will pleasantly surprise.
    TBH, as an Evoker player I'm very excited about our hero talent trees. Supposedly Scalecommander: Bombardment has Black dragons flying overheard attacking the target with fireballs. That's pretty sick if true.

  18. #63678
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    TBH, as an Evoker player I'm very excited about our hero talent trees. Supposedly Scalecommander: Bombardment has Black dragons flying overheard attacking the target with fireballs. That's pretty sick if true.
    I look forward to Hover being an even more satisfying ability to press honestly. If Devoker is retooled to be more interesting to play then that would be a bonus as well.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  19. #63679
    The Lightbringer Worldshaper's Avatar
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    Well, it's almost Monday. Finally, we're about to enter a more exciting time of the year.

    10.2.6
    New Noblegarden stuff
    S4 PTR and release
    10.2.7 PTR and release
    TWW Alpha
    TWW Pre-patch
    TWW release
    A bunch of new Trading Posts, and likely some unexpected surprises along the way

    All this in the coming 5 months or so.

  20. #63680
    Quote Originally Posted by Enrif View Post
    I’m a main blood dk, so I will not even have the choice of rider. So I’m stuck with sanlayn or deathbringer. Deathbringer seems my choice so far.

    But this brings actually a problem with hero specs up, that is probably not addressed yet: what if both hero specs don’t fit what I want for my character? Is there an option to opt out of hero specs, because either would be mismatch to what I want from my character? And if there is a option to opt out, what will the player get on the power side for not choosing a hero spec?
    Example unholy dk:with sanlayn you get bloody effects and blood beasts, with rider you get the four horseman. I can see people who play unholy for the undead minion master fantasy. Both hero specs fail to deliver that and pull the fantasy away from that.
    This is a concern I have as well. For some specs like Blood DK it will only enhance the spec, but I hear the concerns of Destruction Warlocks who feel like they're missing out on anything relevantly themed.

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