The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Cheezits]

Interesting that of all the new talents, Evoker is probably the one that has been the most successfully received. But they did the smart thing by focusing on parts of the class that aren't found in other classes (Red, Bronze, Flight).

[Teriz]

Interesting that of all the new talents, Evoker is probably the one that has been the most successfully received. But they did the smart thing by focusing on parts of the class that aren't found in other classes (Red, Bronze, Flight).

Yeah, if you're an Evoker player and you're not happy with your hero talents, I don't know what to tell you. Even the most boring one; Chronowarden looks better than 80% of the hero talents in other classes. Scalecommander and Flameshaper are easily in the top bracket.

[Ersula]

Where did they say that? I'd very much like to know how they plan to accomplish that, because some of the hero talent trees are already stretching the class concept or is coming out extremely bland (like Demon Hunters) because of the lack of design space. I don't see a scenario where we have 6 hero talent trees per class. Some can barely handle 3.

Barely handle? What does that even mean? I thought it was just easy to assume they'd add more options rather than lengthening the existing talent trees, because when you keep lengthening your talent trees you eventually have to prune them. Whereas if you just keep adding hero tree options you don't have to do that, like D&D does with its subclasses.

It is better than Covenants but share some of its problems. Mainly having to play the hero spec that is better and not the one that you would like fantasy wise. Tying player power and class fantasy is a recipe for failure.

Except that is how the game has always worked. It's been better recently but for most of the game's life some dps specs were totally irrelevant. How many people literally change mains depending on what class is projected to do well in the following season? A lot.

if you do it that way, you will also have the problem that the new hero tree would either be OP or not used at all in their respective expansions compared to the older ones. Besides that, they were already struggling to add 3 hero specs per class, do you really think they can pump out 2-4 more?

Considering the hero trees are extremely situational? Considering some of the hero specs we've seen are just very general dps or utility increases with very little creativity? I don't think those things will be an issue.

[Teriz]

Barely handle? What does that even mean? I thought it was just easy to assume they'd add more options rather than lengthening the existing talent trees, because when you keep lengthening your talent trees you eventually have to prune them. Whereas if you just keep adding hero tree options you don't have to do that, like D&D does with its subclasses.

Uh look at Pack Leader and the DH hero tree. They're uninspired and legit terrible. You're telling me Blizzard is going to come up with MORE talent trees when many of the trees in the initial group looks bland and are stretching the concept?

Also again what happens when you like a hero tree? What if you like Dark Ranger? Is that tree simply going to stop getting talents at level 80 and you gotta start speccing into a new hero tree? What happens to your old DR talents? Do they just disappear?

Again, it makes more sense to simply expand the existing hero trees going forward and make them better. If you like Dark Ranger now, you can keep being a Dark Ranger until Blizzard stops supporting WoW.

[Sondrelk]

Uh look at Pack Leader and the DH hero tree. They're uninspired and legit terrible. You're telling me Blizzard is going to come up with MORE talent trees when many of the trees in the initial group looks bland and are stretching the concept?

Also again what happens when you like a hero tree? What if you like Dark Ranger? Is that tree simply going to stop getting talents at level 80 and you gotta start speccing into a new hero tree? What happens to your old DR talents? Do they just disappear?

Again, it makes more sense to simply expand the existing hero trees going forward and make them better. If you like Dark Ranger now, you can keep being a Dark Ranger until Blizzard stops supporting WoW.

An alternative going forward is to decouple abilities from the appearance modifiers and iterate on them separately. Most of the Hero Talents do basically boil down to improving a specific ability or playstyle, and I reckon many could be reduced down to one or two talents. The Flameshaper one for Devastation and Preservation could easily be made into a talent for the initial ability, and then a second talent after to give it two charges and whatnot. Same with the many utility abilities offered, like making Hover into a teleport.

[Darkarath]

Barely handle? What does that even mean? I thought it was just easy to assume they'd add more options rather than lengthening the existing talent trees, because when you keep lengthening your talent trees you eventually have to prune them. Whereas if you just keep adding hero tree options you don't have to do that, like D&D does with its subclasses.
Except that is how the game has always worked. It's been better recently but for most of the game's life some dps specs were totally irrelevant. How many people literally change mains depending on what class is projected to do well in the following season? A lot.Considering the hero trees are extremely situational? Considering some of the hero specs we've seen are just very general dps or utility increases with very little creativity? I don't think those things will be an issue.

Ok so that Blizzard is going to make more Hero Talents trees in the future came right from your ass.

Understood.

The problem remains then. You are delusional if you think that they are not going to add more talents in 12.0 and 13.0. It does not matter if they will be more Hero Talents, a new form of Hero Talents called "Titan Talents", or just your usual new tier of talents.

I honestly think that adding more Hero Talents will make things worse. Imagine how many possibilities they will have to balance just between classes, specs, and now Hero Talents, plus new visuals for all that.

I get it, though. They have a plan and after TLT a new form of talents will be created that would probably last for another 3 expansions. Not ideal IMO, but not too bad IF done right. Problem is that Hero Talents are in some cases uninspired, in others they are not the fantasy that players want, in other they are adding layers of complexity...

I think that they got it wrong. Players have been screaming for years for more class COSMETIC customization, not for more class complexity.

[Makorus]

You are deluded if you dont think they will add more Hero Talents rather than just adding more talents. They literally described Hero Talents as "evergreen form of character progression for each class specialization" and I am fairly certain they said they don't want to trim the normal talent tree every few expansions.

That way, they dont have to deal with the bloat of adding two more talent tree updates, while not removing any choices and adding extra choices.

Offer alternatives, instead of upgrading.

[Teriz]

An alternative going forward is to decouple abilities from the appearance modifiers and iterate on them separately. Most of the Hero Talents do basically boil down to improving a specific ability or playstyle, and I reckon many could be reduced down to one or two talents. The Flameshaper one for Devastation and Preservation could easily be made into a talent for the initial ability, and then a second talent after to give it two charges and whatnot. Same with the many utility abilities offered, like making Hover into a teleport.

But that would still require them to come up with new hero talent tree ideas while being saddled with the current talents in the hero trees. For example, a Hunter hero talent tree now must always contend with Black Arrow because it's in the tree. Also what new Hunter hero talent trees could you even come up with that is as iconic as Dark Ranger or Sentinel? I'm also highly skeptical of them being able to come up with compelling hero talent tree ideas going forward. As I said, some of these trees are already struggling with interesting concepts.

Wouldn't it make more sense to simply add to the existing hero talent trees? For example in Midnight the Keeper of the Grove hero talent tree can get KotG form. The Dark Ranger hero talent tree can get Haunting Wave. Flameshaper can get Cleansing Flame. That seems more plausible than essentially starting over each expansion.

[Sondrelk]

But that would still require them to come up with new hero talent tree ideas while being saddled with the current talents in the hero trees. For example, a Hunter hero talent tree now must always contend with Black Arrow because it's in the tree. Also what new Hunter hero talent trees could you even come up with that is as iconic as Dark Ranger or Sentinel? I'm also highly skeptical of them being able to come up with compelling hero talent tree ideas going forward. As I said, some of these trees are already struggling with interesting concepts.

Wouldn't it make more sense to simply add to the existing hero talent trees? For example in Midnight the Keeper of the Grove hero talent tree can get KotG form. The Dark Ranger hero talent tree can get Haunting Wave. Flameshaper can get Cleansing Flame. That seems more plausible than essentially starting over each expansion.

Each spec does only have two hero specs though, so you could go for the solution present in the Feral tree for instance, where you have a choice node for the powerful active ability, followed by a talent that buffs both.

Point being that the Hero Talents being so large in scope is a bit of a smokescreen. By the time you are at max level they will all mostly be about choosing between two fairly powerful talents, plus a couple of utility on the side. And as we have seen, some hero talents are strong in flavor, but weak in execution. Some are weak in flavor, but strong in execution. And some are neither.
It's better then, at least in my mind, to in the future consider the Hero specs as a bundle to unpack containing throughput and flavor to be divided into separate things.

[Cherry123]

I wonder what it means "harbinger quest" mean? in 10.2.7 This is something related to the three animated shorts before the expansion.

[Makorus]

I wonder what it means "harbinger quest" mean? in 10.2.7 This is something related to the three animated shorts before the expansion.

Harbinger and the name of the patch "Dark Heart" refers to the Xalatath quest chain we will probably be getting.

[Woggmer]

That is not the lore in Exiles Reach, which they are railroaded through.

It's not the lore of Exile's Reach, but it's the first thing you see when you make your character. You have to pick a side... and unless Blizzard can somehow managed to get rid of factions without it fucking over the game's core, then it'd be a miracle... but if they can't then there's no point trying.

[Cheezits]

I wonder what it means "harbinger quest" mean? in 10.2.7 This is something related to the three animated shorts before the expansion.

The Harbinger is confirmed to be Xal'atath as of The War Within reveal.

[Woggmer]

I wonder what it means "harbinger quest" mean? in 10.2.7 This is something related to the three animated shorts before the expansion.

Are they even gonna do those animated shorts anymore? I mean the guy that did those shorts and much of cinematic stuff for WoW (up until DF's cinematic) left the company just a few weeks ago.

[Makorus]

Are they even gonna do those animated shorts anymore? I mean the guy that did those shorts and much of cinematic stuff for WoW (up until DF's cinematic) left the company just a few weeks ago.

He was only directing the actual high-fidelity cinematics, and importantly, he did not direct the Shadowlands one (which was by no means bad direction-wise, even if the writing was debatable) so it's not like there won't be any cinematics anymore.

We don't actually know who made the Warbringer-esque shorts, but there is nothing that implies we wont get any more of those.

[Raetary]

I wonder what it means "harbinger quest" mean?

Campaign quests setting up Xal'atath and the TWW storyline.

Xal is the Harbinger.

[Sondrelk]

Are they even gonna do those animated shorts anymore? I mean the guy that did those shorts and much of cinematic stuff for WoW (up until DF's cinematic) left the company just a few weeks ago.

I don't see why not. They might not look the same, but I doubt Blizzard will simply ignore how much publicity they get from them. Especially on YouTube where they do really well.

[Cherry123]

Campaign quests setting up Xal'atath and the TWW storyline.

Xal is the Harbinger.

I'm just surprised this isn't a pre-patch part.

[Hugnomo]

As an Evoker I'm pretty excited by the hero talents.
And as a whole, I quite like the system. But I'm not out here trying to do top1% players gameplay or doing the hardest possible content, and I certainly understand the complaints from those players perspective. Though I would argue that picking a race, a class or spec is already a gameplay choice tied to flavor/lore/aesthetics, and players have been living with those for 20 years.

I feel that, if you're that very small percent of players vying for the top of the top, you understand that fantasy and flavor will not be a priority.
I think that if the system is viable for most of the content and for most players then it's a success.

I think that, for this system, they should be more transformative with the hero talents offered, both visually and gameplay wise, while maybe having an option for a more generic improvement to the spec so it's not tied to a specific fantasy that the player might not want to play.

I do think they should go for more iconic stuff like blademaster, witch doctor, warden, etc in the future. If they're willing to give an active new spell as a core talent for these trees, I don't see why blademaster couldn't be feasible.

Honestly I think it's a wonderful way to add more fantasy, fresh gameplay, etc, without more bloat and balancing, considering it's a spec choice with limited points.

[Nibelheimy]

Im not going to write paragraphs about my problems with the system, but after seeing the blizzcon preview of mountain thane, and then readinf the pack leader tree. Its hard to imagine its going to look any good. I have a hard time imagining some of these looking good at all, and wish they didnt emphasise on the visual quality so much ich of them at the time. Maybe when we can start seeing some of them visually they will pleasantly surprise.