The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Lady Atia]

So they add Dark Arrow and most of the related talents to the normal BM/Marksmanship spec and you still have to pick them because they are still the best option. And then what?

Also, the new Hero Talents are not gonna be "TWW Hero Talents PLUS Midnight Hero Talents", it's going to be "TWW Hero Talents OR Midnight Hero Talents"

Where did they state that they "always want to give us a new talent point per level"? I mean, you can still get a Midnight Hero Talent point so you can use the Midnight Hero talent gradually as you level.

1) They literally created the Hero Specs so they don't have to add to the original two trees for now.

2) Yeah and that's the problem lol. Also they NEVER said that. All they said is that the TWW HERO SPECS will be evergreen. Please link me the interview this "they will do infinite new hero specs down the line" bullshit comes from.

3) Both during Dragonflight and TWW interviews lol. And no, getting Midnight Hero Spec talent tree points during leveling would automatically make the Midnight talents either better than the TWW ones, or useless since you would still just use your old talent tree??

Last but not least, if they just add lets say void and light infused on top we will be a Void infused Blood Elf Dark Ranger Beastmaster or what?^^

[Darkarath]

Wait, hold on, how will talent bloat happen with Hero Talents, assuming they are gonna add more hero talents in Midnight and TLT.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand what people are talking about. No one is talking about adding more talents to existing hero specs, i.e. Dark Ranger, but adding more hero specs. So instead of choosing between Packleader and Dark Ranger, you choose between Packleader, Dark Ranger and Zookeeper.

I don't see how that would result in any bloat whatsoever, and I don't see how there would be any issues with balancing either because realistically, they wouldn't have to touch any of the old trees.

Ok maybe I did not explain myself clearly enough, let me try one more time.

First: They are going to add new talent tiers in Midnight and in TLT in one way or another. They might expand current talent trees, current hero talent trees, or take a new form. Every expansion has added talents in or way or another and we have no reason to believe that that is going to change.

So talent bloat and probably skill bloat will happen no matter what eventually.

Second: I did understand you perfectly. My point is that we will have in TWW 39 Hero Talent Trees. 39. If you keep adding more Hero Talent Trees every expansion, at least they should add one more per class or the amount of shit that they will get would be quite a thing to behold. So I believe that there are 13 classes so in Midnight we will have 52 Hero Talent Trees, right? Quite the number. And here is the problem IMO.

For each new Hero Talent Tree that they add, they will have to test how it combines with the 39 old Hero Talent Trees + The 12 new Hero Talent Trees. They will have to test how every skill reacts and behaves with each other and watch out for possible overpowered combinations in every possible aspect of the game. That without taking in account the amount of confusion that it will add to the game, as it is already nearly impossible to know what a certain spec can do depending on which talents it has. Try to keep up with all the new hero skill effects that would be added to the game.

Third: It is just impossible. They are way more convoluted that just a new tier of talents, and they are dissapointing lots of players because their classes will not have the fantasy that they wanted, or because they added the fantasy that they wanted but it is not what they expected. It is a lose-lose situation for them, and it will be a fucking nightmare to balance. When did we have this same exact situation? That is right, Shadowlands.

But I get it, they try, but they will fail again. As long as they are giving options in talents and as long as there are not a limit to the amount of active skills that we can have, skill bloat and talent bloat will happen. I say follow the FFXIV route.

Completely remove specs and talents. Each class has a certain kit and that's it. Make every class fun and with awesome skill effects. They can easily make every spec into their own class. In such a way they can add 2 classes every expansion as FFXIV does. We will not need talents with such a variety. Hell, WoW has quite a number of classes + specs already, and most players just choose the talents that they see in a certain website and never look back.

[Makorus]

1) They literally created the Hero Specs so they don't have to add to the original two trees for now.

2) Yeah and that's the problem lol. Also they NEVER said that. All they said is that the TWW HERO SPECS will be evergreen. Please link me the interview this "they will do infinite new hero specs down the line" bullshit comes from.

3) Both during Dragonflight and TWW interviews lol. And no, getting Midnight Hero Spec talent tree points during leveling would automatically make the Midnight talents either better than the TWW ones, or useless since you would still just use your old talent tree??

Last but not least, if they just add lets say void and light infused on top we will be a Void infused Blood Elf Dark Ranger Beastmaster or what?^^

1.) Right. My point is that the argument you have against them (I have to play something I don't want to, because it's better, and this wouldn't have happened if there were no normal talents) is inherently wrong. Your argument given (Oh, just add nothing and get cosmetic glyphs) is laughable.

2.) They literally call Hero Talents an evergreen concept in every blogpost. How would that even work down the line? Are they gonna keep adding on to trees, when most concepts are already stretched to their limits? Yeah, Slayer is such an amazing concept, I am sure they can add five more rows to that. And them just continuing to exist as is is not evergreen.

3.) How? You hit 71. You get another spec point. You unlock the first talent of the new Midnight specs. You can continue using the fully-upgraded TWW spec or if there is a Midnight spec you fancy, you can try using that. Alternatively, the Void supresses you and you can't access the old TWW Hero Talents until after you finish that story.

And no, once again, it is not on top. Right now, you choose between "Dark Ranger" and "Packleader". In Midnight, you will choose between "Dark Ranger", "Pack Leader", "Void Hunter" and "Light Hunter".

- - - Updated - - -

Ok maybe I did not explain myself clearly enough, let me try one more time.

First: They are going to add new talent tiers in Midnight and in TLT in one way or another. They might expand current talent trees, current hero talent trees, or take a new form. Every expansion has added talents in or way or another and we have no reason to believe that that is going to change.

So talent bloat and probably skill bloat will happen no matter what eventually.

Second: I did understand you perfectly. My point is that we will have in TWW 39 Hero Talent Trees. 39. If you keep adding more Hero Talent Trees every expansion, at least they should add one more per class or the amount of shit that they will get would be quite a thing to behold. So I believe that there are 13 classes so in Midnight we will have 52 Hero Talent Trees, right? Quite the number. And here is the problem IMO.

For each new Hero Talent Tree that they add, they will have to test how it combines with the 39 old Hero Talent Trees + The 12 new Hero Talent Trees. They will have to test how every skill reacts and behaves with each other and watch out for possible overpowered combinations in every possible aspect of the game. That without taking in account the amount of confusion that it will add to the game, as it is already nearly impossible to know what a certain spec can do depending on which talents it has. Try to keep up with all the new hero skill effects that would be added to the game.

Third: It is just impossible. They are way more convoluted that just a new tier of talents, and they are dissapointing lots of players because their classes will not have the fantasy that they wanted, or because they added the fantasy that they wanted but it is not what they expected. It is a lose-lose situation for them, and it will be a fucking nightmare to balance. When did we have this same exact situation? That is right, Shadowlands.

But I get it, they try, but they will fail again. As long as they are giving options in talents and as long as there are not a limit to the amount of active skills that we can have, skill bloat and talent bloat will happen. I say follow the FFXIV route.

Completely remove specs and talents. Each class has a certain kit and that's it. Make every class fun and with awesome skill effects. They can easily make every spec into their own class. In such a way they can add 2 classes every expansion as FFXIV does. We will not need talents with such a variety. Hell, WoW has quite a number of classes + specs already, and most players just choose the talents that they see in a certain website and never look back.

1.) During the Deep Dive panel, they outright said that they do not want to add more talents to the tree, and they can hardly include more talents in the current Hero Talents tree because they already ran out of ideas for the individual trees.

2.) I don't think you understand how class balance works if you think that they go "Myess, how does Fire Mage and Elemental Shaman work together". They test interactions with PI and Aug but I would suppose that's about it. Also, Hero Talents are so simple and 90% of them are just passive and don't fundamentally change the playstyle that saying that there is gonna be "confusion" is just disingenious.

3.) You keep harping on about Covenants but you don't understand why people didn't like Covenants.

[doledippers]

They are way more convoluted that just a new tier of talents, and they are dissapointing lots of players because their classes will not have the fantasy that they wanted, or because they added the fantasy that they wanted but it is not what they expected. It is a lose-lose situation for them, and it will be a fucking nightmare to balance. When did we have this same exact situation? That is right, Shadowlands.

But I get it, they try, but they will fail again. As long as they are giving options in talents and as long as there are not a limit to the amount of active skills that we can have, skill bloat and talent bloat will happen. I say follow the FFXIV route.

Completely remove specs and talents. Each class has a certain kit and that's it.

first of all, it would be SIGNIFICANTLY harder to balance these if they were just stuck at the bottom of the existing talent trees, and it would also be significantly more convoluted. you have it completely backwards. The current trees were designed and balanced around having that many points. The second you add even 1 more talent point, they need to all be completely rebalanced and repathed. It's the exact same scenario that played out in WOTLK and Cata, it is not sustainable to continually add new talent points onto existing trees. Atleast for TWW, this alleviates that problem. What they intend to do going forward with them is another story (and stop acting like you know what theyll do, no one does).

as for "just make the game FF14", yeah, how about fuckin no. Go play FF14 if you want everybody who plays a certain class to be the exact same.

- - - Updated - - -

2.) I don't think you understand how class balance works

they dont understand it whatsoever. as i mentioned if you put 10 new talents at the bottom of every existing spec tree you have to completely rebalance and redo the pathing on every single spec tree, rather than what you have to do with hero talents, which is just tune the knobs on the self contained hero talents. it's so much easier to balance hero talents than it would be +10 on spec trees

[Teriz]

3.) How? You hit 71. You get another spec point. You unlock the first talent of the new Midnight specs. You can continue using the fully-upgraded TWW spec or if there is a Midnight spec you fancy, you can try using that. Alternatively, the Void supresses you and you can't access the old TWW Hero Talents until after you finish that story.

Okay, but if you don’t want to spec into the new midnight hero talents, what do you do with those additional talent points?

[Makorus]

Okay, but if you don’t want to spec into the new midnight hero talents, what do you do with those additional talent points?

Use them for the Midnight tree regardless.

[Teriz]

Use them for the Midnight tree regardless.

Hmmm, I suppose I’m not seeing a difference between adding new talents to an existing hero talent tree and/or adding a new hero talent tree.

[Darkarath]

1.) During the Deep Dive panel, they outright said that they do not want to add more talents to the tree, and they can hardly include more talents in the current Hero Talents tree because they already ran out of ideas for the individual trees.

2.) I don't think you understand how class balance works if you think that they go "Myess, how does Fire Mage and Elemental Shaman work together". They test interactions with PI and Aug but I would suppose that's about it. Also, Hero Talents are so simple and 90% of them are just passive and don't fundamentally change the playstyle that saying that there is gonna be "confusion" is just disingenious.

3.) You keep harping on about Covenants but you don't understand why people didn't like Covenants.

1) Ok, they have added new talents in some way in every expansion but in Midnight and TLT you think that they will not. I hope that you are right. But facts tell me otherwise.

2) Not every player has been playing the game forever or know what every class does. WoW is a VERY complicated game for the regular player out there. Hero Specs just add to that with very little gain (apparently). And they HAVE to test how skills interact with each other. This is a multiplayer game in case that you did not notice. We have a very clear example of overpowered combinations in DF with the addition of Augmentation Evokers. That could happen every time you add a Hero Talent tree.

3) Sadly I was there. I understand it perfectly. They mixed player power and class fantasy. Simple as that, and it is happening all over again, even if we will be able to change our talents in a second, the problem will remain.

first of all, it would be SIGNIFICANTLY harder to balance these if they were just stuck at the bottom of the existing talent trees, and it would also be significantly more convoluted. you have it completely backwards. The current trees were designed and balanced around having that many points. The second you add even 1 more talent point, they need to all be completely rebalanced and repathed. It's the exact same scenario that played out in WOTLK and Cata, it is not sustainable to continually add new talent points onto existing trees. Atleast for TWW, this alleviates that problem. What they intend to do going forward with them is another story (and stop acting like you know what theyll do, no one does).

as for "just make the game FF14", yeah, how about fuckin no. Go play FF14 if you want everybody who plays a certain class to be the exact same.

Who said that new talents should be at the bottom of the talent tree? Nobody talked about that. Man you brought that literally out of nowhere. That would be stupid. I also did not say that they should add more talents. I said that they WILL add them, as they have always done. I did NOT say that that is my desire.

If you think that every class play the same in FFXIV you probably have not played it. BTW I am not a pro FFXIV. I play and love WoW, not FFXIV. I just see things of that game that would make WoW infinitely better IMO.

[Makorus]

Hmmm, I suppose I’m not seeing a difference between adding new talents to an existing hero talent tree and/or adding a new hero talent tree.

Because if you add to an existing hero talent, you have a tree with 20 options, that all have to be balanced around eachother, while if you add a second tree, you have one tree that is already balanced, and another set of talents that you have to balance once and then never again.

[Auxis]

I've secured tomorrow and the day after as sick leave from work. I hope the servers are stable when they come back online.

Edit: omg if they have an extended extended maintenance I might actually lose my shit :[

[doledippers]

I've secured tomorrow and the day after as sick leave from work. I hope the servers are stable when they come back online.

Edit: omg if they have an extended extended maintenance I might actually lose my shit :[

well theres gonna be maintenance from 7am to 3pm PDT , been on the launcher since friday

[Auxis]

well theres gonna be maintenance from 7am to 3pm PDT , been on the launcher since friday

Eh that's not that bad all things considered. Norm for a patch maint.

I mean, like, when they pull the "Maint is gonna take another few hours, folks, because of <blah>." card.

[Ersula]

Okay, but if you don’t want to spec into the new midnight hero talents, what do you do with those additional talent points?

You're acting like they definitely will add more talent tree points for Midnight & The Last Titan when there's no guarantee of that. That doesn't always happen. This system suggests there won't be. I think the added variety of more hero tree options is intended to be the more evergreen alternative than just adding more talent points.

We're obviously getting alternative hero talents as the game goes on, not successive hero talents.

[Teriz]

You're acting like they definitely will add more talent tree points for Midnight & The Last Titan when there's no guarantee of that. That doesn't always happen. This system suggests there won't be. I think the added variety of more hero tree options is intended to be the more evergreen alternative than just adding more talent points.

We're obviously getting alternative hero talents as the game goes on, not successive hero talents.

So you're saying that we'll swap between hero talent trees almost like we do with specs?

You don't think that would cause a significant balancing issue over time?

[Sondrelk]

You're acting like they definitely will add more talent tree points for Midnight & The Last Titan when there's no guarantee of that. That doesn't always happen. This system suggests there won't be. I think the added variety of more hero tree options is intended to be the more evergreen alternative than just adding more talent points.

We're obviously getting alternative hero talents as the game goes on, not successive hero talents.

I can't see Blizzard making more Hero Talents as more options alongside the ones we are getting. But I could see a future where the Hero Talents are treated as a singular capstone talent, and the theming of them changes drastically.

Some Hero Talents will likely stick around like they are currently, while others will likely get the axe when they are either found to be too weak thematically, or too important to the flow of the spec to have as a talent.

If we assume Hero Talents are here to stay then I very much doubt we will see more than the one per spec we have currently.

- - - Updated - - -

So you're saying that we'll swap between hero talent trees almost like we do with specs?

You don't think that would cause a significant balancing issue over time?

I imagine it could work as they get further refined, and actually end up as two distinct playstyles you choose between for the endgame.
Currently it's all a bit nebulous as there isnt really anything like Hero Talents in-game to compare it to, and the ones we see might not make sense until we actually play it.

[Ersula]

I can't see Blizzard making more Hero Talents as more options alongside the ones we are getting. But I could see a future where the Hero Talents are treated as a singular capstone talent, and the theming of them changes drastically.

Some Hero Talents will likely stick around like they are currently, while others will likely get the axe when they are either found to be too weak thematically, or too important to the flow of the spec to have as a talent.

Yes. If you look at Artifact powers, Azerite powers & Soulbinds as analogs for "more talents" they do indeed do this every expansion: But why do you consider adding new hero tree tracts different from that?

If that's your stance, yes; Hero Talents are just borrowed power again. If they add More Hero Talent tree options in the subsequent expansions, they are just borrowed power again BUT you get to keep the option of using the previous expansions' borrowed power; thus making it an infinitely better system.

So you're saying that we'll swap between hero talent trees almost like we do with specs?

You don't think that would cause a significant balancing issue over time?

Wouldn't we have to? I don't see how this system would work if you're locked into a hero tree. What happens if you pick Lightsmith, then swap to Retribution?

And I think it's going to be a lot easier to balance this system than adding cool new powers to the existing class & spec trees. Like the subclass system in d&d 5e, its essentially just a kit added on top of your existing abilities.

[Sondrelk]

Yes. If you look at Artifact powers, Azerite powers & Soulbinds as analogs for "more talents" they do indeed do this every expansion: But why do you consider adding new hero tree tracts different from that?

If that's your stance, yes; Hero Talents are just borrowed power again. If they add More Hero Talent tree options in the subsequent expansions, they are just borrowed power again BUT you get to keep the option of using the previous expansions' borrowed power; thus making it an infinitely better system.

I do think that Hero Talents would be better served as strong endgame talents, and then decouple the visuals from it and add that somewhere else.
My argument for the continuation of Hero Talents specifically though is that I doubt you would ever need more than two choices if both are sufficiently different in execution, and equal in power.

[Makorus]

I do think that Hero Talents would be better served as strong endgame talents, and then decouple the visuals from it and add that somewhere else.
My argument for the continuation of Hero Talents specifically though is that I doubt you would ever need more than two choices if both are sufficiently different in execution, and equal in power.

But that leads to the exact thing they dont want, bloat.
Except you have the bloat Expansion+1, rather than during the expansion.
It's not about "needing", it's about offering different choices. They already said that ideally and realistically, both choices will be roughly the same performance-wise.

We want players to be free to choose the Hero Talent tree that has the gameplay, visuals, or flavor that they prefer. Our goal is for both options to feel similarly effective in raid dungeons, Mythic+, and PvP. We're working to avoid abilities or bonuses in Hero Talents that could make a certain tree feel "required" for activities where we can.

We know that for some players, prioritizing total throughput is the most important thing to them, even if the difference between choices seems small. That’s okay but keeping Hero Talent balance close is one of our priorities so that players can play what they prefer and still be viable in any content.

Obviously, right now we only have their word to go on, but the fact that they actually point that out, when they never really ever say that they want stuff to be equal is telling.

Their whole design philosophy behind Hero Talents is offering different gameplay and flavour, so them adding more makes complete sense.

[Enrif]

But that leads to the exact thing they dont want, bloat.
Except you have the bloat Expansion+1, rather than during the expansion.
It's not about "needing", it's about offering different choices. They already said that ideally and realistically, both choices will be roughly the same performance-wise.

I want to add here:

There are two types of progressions blizzard can go with hero talents.
Vertical and Horizontal.

Vertical progressions would be more of the same we had with the classic talent trees from vanilla to cata. The trees would get longer and longer and longer. That is bad bloat, as it just gives more of the same.

Horizontal progression is healthier and would be with more hero specs to choose from. This would align with how class choice/spec choice operate. It would keep talent trees smaller, and still give things to consider. But instead of small little points here and there, we would swap out a big chunk at once.

Vertical Progression Bloat is dangerous. And we already went there in WoW, and it was scrapped.

Horizontal Progression Bloat is something that never happend yet. Even considering borrowed power systems to be that, these systems never lasted more than an expansion, and never added more horizontal progression. If it would, we could have a game where you could choose either the Artifact Weapon powers, the Heart of Azeroth powers, or the Covenant powers. But only one of them at a time active, but all three available at the same time to freely switch between. This could have led to interesting options, if we would had the best versions of each, and not the bad sides of them (hard locking to one thing, endless grind). Hero Specs are in a way, a trimmed down and streamlined version of it, without the things that actually made those borrowed power systems bad(taking up a item place, hard locks, grindy, lost after the expansion).

[Teriz]

Well since this is sort of going in this direction anyway, I’d like some thoughts on this;

No plans for more support specs at launch.

https://www.wowhead.com/news/warcraf...-3-more-335902

Which seems to imply that there may be a new support spec after launch.

This quote is giving me “No new Evoker spec in 10.1” vibes.

So are we getting a redux of Augmentation where we get another support spec mid-expansion? If so, which one, and will Blizzard tie it to the narration of the expansion like they did with Augmentation?

Also this means that one of the classes will be getting another hero tree as well.