The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Ielenia]

The Burning Legion and the Old Gods have a side too. Doesn't make them any less evil.

Uh, no. We had several sides. We had the orcs' side, the night elves' side, the draenei's side, the Titans' side, etc.

Again, which is why Yrel having a "side" is irrelelvant to the fact that she's doing evil stuff.

Except it is very relevant for your claim that "it's a fact she's doing evil stuff".

It makes perfect sense given what we saw during BFA.

Again, it doesn't, because we have only one side of the story, and an incomplete side at best. We have no context. For all we know, the orcs could've broken their peace first, or started to go back to their days of waging war, etc, which could've forced the draenei's hands to avoid another war. Also, we have no actual evidence of "forced conversion" aside from a claim without evidence from one of the Mag'har.

You need to play the scenario again. Yrel herself rolled up in the presence of the Horde Champion (aka the player) and gave the Orcs the ultimatum to surrender to the light or be eradicated. So no, it isn't just a Mag'har claim, we witnessed it ourselves.

You can't "play it again", but I watched the video of the entire quest chain. This is what she says:
Yrel: "I have come to offer you one last chance to embrace the Light."
Yrel: "Your people are choking the life from this world... dooming the land to desiccation."
Yrel: "It pains me to lose an old friend, Grommash. But... very well. We will settle this your way."

Not to mention it's the so-called "evil side" that says "stop this bloodshed", while the "oppressed side" is the one that says "I want another exarch head to mount on my wall":

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And it could very well be that neither side are actually killing the planet. The lore speculates that Draenor could actually be dying because of the time traveling that Garrosh did back in WoD with Kairoz.

Either way, it doesn't justify the genocide done by the Draenei on AU Draenor.

It could be the timeline just falling apart which would put the goats in the wrong but if the orcs were destroying the planet making them change there ways or stoping them by force would be perfectly justified just like opposing the legion is.

[Ielenia]

Ruins the world to the point where the entire planet would begin to die? Doubtful.

Several naaru converging on a world and pouring massive energies into it? Possibly.

"Ruins the world to the point where the entire planet would begin to die" is just as doubtful as your claim about "several naaru converging on a world to pour massive energies into it."

Arguably, your claim about the naaru is even more doubtful considering we have no evidence of the Naaru doing exactly that in the recruitment scenario since we see no Naaru doing that in the final siege, but we know that the orcs' industrialization does ruin the land.

I disagree. I think Yrel dying for her beliefs would be a fitting end to her tragic story.

As "fitting" (and I'd use a lot of quotes here) as Arthas' "fitting end" in Shadowlands.

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Brennadam was a list minute change in the beta. Quillboars were supposed to be the ones to invade, however due to a feedback of "lack of faction war" in the story, they changed it hastily. There's also a problem of Blizzard changing the story depending on which faction does the quest.

Well, independently if this was planned from the beginning, or a last minute addition, the point is that this is part of the lore now, unfortunately.

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Either way, it doesn't justify the genocide done by the Draenei on AU Draenor.

Except... is there any actual evidence of genocide?

[CopyX1982]

Did I just wade through several pages of people bickering about lore again? I think I did.

Why exactly ARE you all arguing about Yrel? I literally couldn't be assed to read it all.

Blizzcon is gonna be very intriguing though, WoW is on such a good roll right now.

[Darkarath]

That is literally the case of the death knight as I explained: Frost and Unholy were no longer tank specs, changing their role completely and Blood was no longer a DPS spec, changing its role completely.

Again, not comparable IMO, as Unholy and Frost were also DPS specs, and with the old talent system many crazy stuff was allowed. Hybrid classes were kind of a thing back then. Nowadays, as I have explained, Blizzard would be pissing off a portion of the playerbase for no reason at all.

To this day, there has not been in WoW a spec that changed its role (DPS, Tank, Healer) completely. They have certainly been changed in many ways, though.

[Nightshade711]

You can't "play it again", but I watched the video of the entire quest chain. This is what she says:
Yrel: "I have come to offer you one last chance to embrace the Light."
Yrel: "Your people are choking the life from this world... dooming the land to desiccation."
Yrel: "It pains me to lose an old friend, Grommash. But... very well. We will settle this your way."

Not to mention it's the so-called "evil side" that says "stop this bloodshed", while the "oppressed side" is the one that says "I want another exarch head to mount on my wall":

Damn I forgot about some of that.
If that’s the case then the Draenei do have justification for everything.

The fact that they’re actually sparing the Orcs allowing some to convert instead of just slaughtering them all in spite of everything that the Orcs have done is interesting.

(Especially after WoD when the Orcs should’ve been irredeemable)

[Ielenia]

Again, not comparable IMO, as Unholy and Frost were also DPS specs,

That's not he point, though. The point is that there were those who played those specs for those specific roles (blood DPS, and frost and unholy tanking) which suddenly were forced to either switch roles, or switch specs.

[Darkarath]

That's not he point, though. The point is that there were those who played those specs for those specific roles (blood DPS, and frost and unholy tanking) which suddenly were forced to either switch roles, or switch specs.

Well, I think that the situation is not comparable, honestly, but I understand your point of view. I mean people played Retribution Paladin as an offtank in the old days, but It has always been a DPS spec.

What is relevant here is that if in 11.0 Blizzard changes current DPS specs to support ones, It would get a lot of hate. Unnecessary confrontation with your playerbase when they can create new specs and hype everyone.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

You can't "play it again", but I watched the video of the entire quest chain. This is what she says:
Yrel: "I have come to offer you one last chance to embrace the Light."
Yrel: "Your people are choking the life from this world... dooming the land to desiccation."
Yrel: "It pains me to lose an old friend, Grommash. But... very well. We will settle this your way."

Not to mention it's the so-called "evil side" that says "stop this bloodshed", while the "oppressed side" is the one that says "I want another exarch head to mount on my wall":

I mean it can simply mean that during or since the conflict that Yrel and the light crusade started, some exarch's heads were already taken, and gerayah being mad says that after hearing that the High Exarch herself appeared.

This conflict doesn't happen when we just get there, a lot of orcs could already be tortured and killed if they didn't join the light.

She speaks about the land, but she doesn't care about the land, she cares only about converting to the light itself and crusade that she leads, why would orcs converting to light solve the land from its self destruction?


Still the thread derailed to lore land, so i end my pov on that with this post.

[Teriz]

Uh, no. We had several sides. We had the orcs' side, the night elves' side, the draenei's side, the Titans' side, etc.


Except it is very relevant for your claim that "it's a fact she's doing evil stuff".

Wiping out a culture that you deem inferior is "doing evil stuff".

Again, it doesn't, because we have only one side of the story, and an incomplete side at best.

Again, you don't need the other side of the story if the other side is forcefully converting every other life form on the planet (which isn't even their planet).

We have no context.

Why do you need context when Yrel literally says "convert or die" in the scenario?

You can't "play it again", but I watched the video of the entire quest chain. This is what she says:
Yrel: "I have come to offer you one last chance to embrace the Light."
Yrel: "Your people are choking the life from this world... dooming the land to desiccation."
Yrel: "It pains me to lose an old friend, Grommash. But... very well. We will settle this your way."

Not to mention it's the so-called "evil side" that says "stop this bloodshed", while the "oppressed side" is the one that says "I want another exarch head to mount on my wall":

Why are you only showing half the dialogue?

Grommash Hellscream yells: They are too many! We cannot hold this line forever!
Overlord Geya'rah yells: We must! It is NOT our fate to fall to this corruption!

From the Lightbound lines, High Exarch Yrel calls out.
High Exarch Yrel yells: Grommash Hellscream. It has been a long time.
Grommash Hellscream yells: High Exarch. A rare... honor.
High Exarch Yrel yells: I have come to offer you one last chance to embrace the Light.
High Exarch Yrel yells: Your people are choking the life from this world... dooming the land to desiccation.
Grommash Hellscream yells: How can you be so blind, Yrel? It is the Light that has doomed this world!
High Exarch Yrel yells: It pains me to lose an old friend, Grommash. But... very well. We will settle this your way.

<Grommash lowers his voice so only the Mag'har can hear.>
Grommash Hellscream says: Geya'rah, get everyone out of here. Now. No questions.
Grommash Hellscream yells: For the Mag'har! For Draenor! Lok-tar ogar!

So let's move this exact conversation over to Azeroth, what if that were Thrall conversating with Yrel. Would you really sit here and say that Thrall is the bad guy here when Yrel would be attempting to completely eradicate Orcish culture and people from Azeroth?

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It could be the timeline just falling apart which would put the goats in the wrong but if the orcs were destroying the planet making them change there ways or stoping them by force would be perfectly justified just like opposing the legion is.

Yeah, but I don't believe the Orcs industrializing on one continent would decimate the entire planet. I do think the time stuff is the culprit. However the larger point is the zealotry on the side of the Draenei. They're on a literal crusade.

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Except... is there any actual evidence of genocide?

Yes. They're forcefully converting non-Draenei to the light. If they don't convert, they are killed.

[Marlamin]

Did I just wade through several pages of people bickering about lore again? I think I did.

Why exactly ARE you all arguing about Yrel? I literally couldn't be assed to read it all.

Blizzcon is gonna be very intriguing though, WoW is on such a good roll right now.

Yep, yet another tangent that has gone on for way too long and is absolutely devoid of speculation but instead going super deeply into history and people defending eachother's interpretations of it.

[Nymrohd]

Yep, yet another tangent that has gone on for way too long and is absolutely devoid of speculation but instead going super deeply into history and people defending eachother's interpretations of it.

Hey, several of us ARE trying to make it about speculation and scenarios on how it could be future content. Just specific people keep making it about themselves as always and others have to quote and post rebuttal sentence by sentence for pages on end. . . .
People could ignore the latter and try and offer further opinions on the former.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yeah, but I don't believe the Orcs industrializing on one continent would decimate the entire planet. I do think the time stuff is the culprit. However the larger point is the zealotry on the side of the Draenei. They're on a literal crusade.

isn’t the planet only two continents and the other is the oger empire we never got But ignoring that.

Honestly they should make it just time stuff being the cause and then both sides blame the other and go to extremes.

They even could do a light crusade after the mega dungeon next patch and make it so Yrel her self is unsure in invading Azeroth as it has none of the signs of dying like dreanor but Xera is still pushing super hard for the crusade and you have light bound orcs and goats who go with it meaning they could still salvage Yrel and bring her into the main universe after we smash Xera and fight a pimping light forged garrosh.

[Marlamin]

Hey, several of us ARE trying to make it about speculation and scenarios on how it could be future content. Just specific people keep making it about themselves as always and others have to quote and post rebuttal sentence by sentence for pages on end. . . .
People could ignore the latter and try and offer further opinions on the former.

Oh definitely, and I applaud that, but it barely gets through the noise of the back-and-forthers. Telling people to ignore those kind of things hasn't historically worked either because the back and forth is usually between only a few people who want to always get the last word in. But with the new story unlock(s) this week we should at least have a bit of distraction sometime tomorrow.

[Hardwing]

And it could very well be that neither side are actually killing the planet. The lore speculates that Draenor could actually be dying because of the time traveling that Garrosh did back in WoD with Kairoz.

Either way, it doesn't justify the genocide done by the Draenei on AU Draenor.

I agree! With the alternate timeline patch coming, I hope this will be adressed, even if just shortly.

"Genocide", doesn't seem the right word though. Crusade followed by mass brainwashing maybe. We very well might see a Lightbound Hellscream and Lantresor.

[Nymrohd]

Oh definitely, and I applaud that, but it barely gets through the noise of the back-and-forthers. Telling people to ignore those kind of things hasn't historically worked either because the back and forth is usually between only a few people who want to always get the last word in. But with the new story unlock(s) this week we should at least have a bit of distraction sometime tomorrow.

Yes, bring on Tyrigosa with her elven visage and her compulsory hot human male companion. Also Azuregos and his Kyrian girlfriend would be interesting to see after SL lore.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

IWe very well might see a Lightbound Hellscream and Lantresor.

Honestly this is the main reason I’d want a Yrel/AU crusade expan id kill to see light forged Garrosh.

[Ielenia]

What is relevant here is that if in 11.0 Blizzard changes current DPS specs to support ones, It would get a lot of hate. Unnecessary confrontation with your playerbase when they can create new specs and hype everyone.

I honestly doubt Blizzard is going to do that. But if Blizzard does do that, I think they'll most likely do just one singular spec, two at worst. Not to mention many classes' lore and theme doesn't really fit for a "support" spec, like mages, warriors, DHs, rogues, monks, etc.

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I mean it can simply mean that during or since the conflict that Yrel and the light crusade started, some exarch's heads were already taken, and gerayah being mad says that after hearing that the High Exarch herself appeared.

This conflict doesn't happen when we just get there, a lot of orcs could already be tortured and killed if they didn't join the light.

Or, in other words, like I've seen repeatedly saying so far: we're missing a lot of context here.

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Wiping out a culture that you deem inferior is "doing evil stuff".

Protecting the planet from a group of people who seem to not really care about what they are doing to said planet is hardly an "evil thing". At worst, it's 'self-defense'.

Again, you don't need the other side of the story if the other side is forcefully converting every other life form on the planet (which isn't even their planet).

Of which we have zero evidence of that happening. A claim is not evidence. A claim needs evidence.

Why do you need context when Yrel literally says "convert or die" in the scenario?

Because we don't have the full context. She literally claims that the orcs' doing is killing the planet. If that claim is correct, letting them continue doing what they're doing would be counter-productive to not only the draenei's safety, but to the safety of everyone in Draenor.

Why are you only showing half the dialogue?

Because, as I said I would, I wrote what Yrel said to the player and the Mag'har. I never said I would transcribe the entire conversation.

So let's move this exact conversation over to Azeroth, what if that were Thrall conversating with Yrel. Would you really sit here and say that Thrall is the bad guy here when Yrel would be attempting to completely eradicate Orcish culture and people from Azeroth?

That is completely not the same thing. It's apples and oranges. Thrall did not rally the Iron Horde to not only try to genocide the draenei, but also invade Azeroth to kill or conquer everything in their path. Thrall's way of life did not cause suffering to the land and threaten the well-being of the planet.

[Teriz]

isn’t the planet only two continents and the other is the oger empire we never got But ignoring that.

Honestly they should make it just time stuff being the cause and then both sides blame the other and go to extremes.

They even could do a light crusade after the mega dungeon next patch and make it so Yrel her self is unsure in invading Azeroth as it has none of the signs of dying like dreanor but Xera is still pushing super hard for the crusade and you have light bound orcs and goats who go with it meaning they could still salvage Yrel and bring her into the main universe after we smash Xera and fight a pimping light forged garrosh.

Yrel didn't start her crusade because Draenor was dying. She did it because the Naaru started pumping voices into her head, and told her she needed to create an army to stop the void. The goal isn't to save the world, the goal is to wipe out everything else except the light.

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Of which we have zero evidence of that happening. A claim is not evidence. A claim needs evidence.

From the horse's mouth;

Yrel: "I have come to offer you one last chance to embrace the Light."

We also have the Ogre quest at the beginning of the campaign. The Ogres were also hiding from the Lightbound but eventually join them because they see no other alternative.

Anyway, this is a pointless conversation because you absolutely refuse to listen to evidence that completely contradicts your point.

[Nightshade711]

Yrel didn't start her crusade because Draenor was dying. She did it because the Naaru started pumping voices into her head, and told her she needed to create an army to stop the void. The goal isn't to save the world, the goal is to wipe out everything else except the light.

That is some nice head canon in this future patch/expansion speculation thread.