The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Sondrelk]

I feel like the Orc armor is definitely going to have a wolf pelt. That's something that has been requested forever and is really only available through the Dark Shaman set (for shamans only) and vanilla model helmet.

Humans... I can only assume it will be a coat that is Stormwind themed. I doubt it will look like Plate. I'm praying that the questline gets into the House of Nobles and fleshes out Stormwind culture, as opposed to being Fordragon/Wrynn wank.

There is also the wolf helm helmet from MoP that drops from Ordos that is a copy of the PvP helm. Though still only available to Shamans and Hunters, and of course Evokers.

Not ideal, but it's there.

[Nebron]

But what happens in 2024? This is what has me most interested to be honest. Are we looking at another 6 patches? Will Dragonflight have 4 major 10.X patches? Or will they do 10.3 and then cut themselves some slack in the 6 months or so leading up to 11.0?

Timelines suggest there's 10.3 between spring and summer 2023 as the last raiding tier - also 6 months of a tier sounds reasonable. I'm 100% positive there's no 10.4, since there's simply no time to squeeze it in. But what may come after 10.3 is season 5 as a counterpart for Shadowlands' season 4, with affixes for raids. Ion already implied they may bring it back in one form or another, as it worked out for 9.2.

[Revamp Man]

Well yeah, but making every season equal is correcting that mistake. Especially now when season is not just new raid and increasing item level, but also different 8 dungeons to play.

In general I hope 8 bosses/8 dungeons/5.5 month will become standard, seems like a perfect amount for PVE. And I hope rated PVP will get some season rotations to arena/battlegrounds too, which would encourage devs to make new ones.



Probably first half of May, so race/serious progression would wrap up before D4 launch.

Gives me time to enjoy this tier
Group went from 17 to 31 so I welcome more weeks to gear up

[Dracullus]

But what happens in 2024? This is what has me most interested to be honest. Are we looking at another 6 patches? Will Dragonflight have 4 major 10.X patches? Or will they do 10.3 and then cut themselves some slack in the 6 months or so leading up to 11.0?

That may shock some people, but we already have good patch schedule since they cleaned house in 2021. From 9.1.5 in November '21 there wasn't dead period in this game, then we had 9.2, 9.2.5, launch of Season 4, small 9.2.7 and then DF already. No reason they wouldn't repeat it in DF, but this time we could get 5 seasons instead of 4.

[Sondrelk]

Timelines suggest there's 10.3 between spring and summer 2023 as the last raiding tier - also 6 months of a tier sounds reasonable. I'm 100% positive there's no 10.4, since there's simply no time to squeeze it in. But what may come after 10.3 is season 5 as a counterpart for Shadowlands' season 4, with affixes for raids. Ion already implied they may bring it back in one form or another, as it worked out for 9.2.

6 months was the best in Legion. Though that expansion also did the smart move of tying the raids to the minor patches, and effectively staggering the release of major content across 3 month intervals.
One giant content dump every 6 months I feel is okay to a point, but does leave content growing stale by the end.

[Cheezits]

I have not been able to log on and check today, but did the Cata drakes get updated to reflect the new models? Same as the drakonids and dragonspawn.

If not, I think that is a sign that their models will have to physically be placed in the old world, which has its own implications. I don't think Blizz will allow for textures that old and bad to stick around for long (seeing as they have updated most old models by now).

[Sondrelk]

I have not been able to log on and check today, but did the Cata drakes get updated to reflect the new models? Same as the drakonids and dragonspawn.

If not, I think that is a sign that their models will have to physically be placed in the old world, which has its own implications. I don't think Blizz will allow for textures that old and bad to stick around for long (seeing as they have updated most old models by now).

Quite a few old models still need to be manually changed it would seem. The Centaurs in Desolace being a good example. Checked that one and they were all using the older Vanilla era models still.

[Gurahk]

Quite a few old models still need to be manually changed it would seem. The Centaurs in Desolace being a good example. Checked that one and they were all using the older Vanilla era models still.

Best they keep it that way, or atleast make entirely new models specifically for them.

[Cheezits]

Quite a few old models still need to be manually changed it would seem. The Centaurs in Desolace being a good example. Checked that one and they were all using the older Vanilla era models still.

I think it's because they are a notably a different kind of centaur, but the new models COULD be used for them... though I agree they should get a touched up version that looks more like their originals.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Only because people like to compare the First Ones stuff with the Titans, which is completely stupid and closed minded.

- - - Updated - - -

"But the Titans were alresdy creator gods"

Even tho the Old Lore literally goes against this notion. Mfs cannot read and will simply shrug off/disregard actual canonical pieces for their little headcanon.

I think you're ascribing an opinion to me that I do not have. This is not the case.

My primary concern with the introduction of the First Ones is that it undermines the previously-established primacy of the Light and Void as Cosmic Forces and effectively retcons Chronicles' backstory for the WarCraft universe. Chronicles, for the most part, established a perfectly fine beginning and end to the setting, with a set of ultimate villains from which every other set of villains could reasonably proceed either as a reaction to or as proxies of somewhere down the line. It also gave a sensible reason for why the Cosmic Forces emerged and are organized as they are (though I think introducing the Cosmic Forces to what was previously a very soft magic setting was a terrible idea in itself).

The introduction of the First Ones, as a group of overarching deities, also serves to diminish the mystique of other deities we meet. It effectively "personalizes" those deities down to a function equivalent to Titan Keepers (including the Eternal Ones and the Titans themselves), strictly slotting them into a Cosmic Force and preempting versatility in their portrayal or capacities. Although the idea of six fanatical facets of creation determined to expunge the others would make for an interesting story elsewhere, its hamfisted and incompetent introduction to a setting with which it is wholly incongruous distorts the setting and cheapens the aforementioned Cosmic Forces plotline. The demystifying presence of the First Ones is further exacerbated by the fact that nothing seems to emerge "organically" anymore—prior to the First Ones, for instance, the World Souls emerged from the "big bang" of WarCraft and eventually settled inside of planets to hatch from, the Old Gods emerged from the Void Lords, who were themselves products of the Void in itself, while the Wild Gods were products of Life in the sense that they emerged and evolved as though they were themselves lifeforms, and the Naaru emerged from clouds of fractured Light in the physical universe. Now, these deities which were otherwise (benignly) incongruous with one another have become homogenized in their origin—we can feasibly assume that the Void Lords were plopped into the Void by the First Ones after manufacturing them in their respective Zereth, World-Souls are produced in a Zereth and promptly disseminated across Azeroth to find planets to hatch from, the Wild Gods are likely products of a Zereth, and the Naaru are probably the same. It, as I said, dramatically demystifies and cheapens every other group of deities to introduce new threads that simply did not need to be introduced. We already had a good beginning-and-end point for the universe with the Light and Void, and we knew how everything else emerged from them in their own, unique ways. Now, everything, including the Light and Void, emerge in a homogeneous fashion from the First Ones as a product of the Zereth system.

I would also say that those comparing the First Ones to the Titans are not doing so on a precedent of the Titans being creator gods, but rather that there exists significant overlap in other facets of their identity. Another group of creator gods preceding the Titans could be interesting on its own and they could possess a distinct identity from the Titans, but insofar as we've seen the First Ones operate nigh-identically to the Titans—they organize reality through technology, manufacturing machines to maintain order and control certain domains as deities or demigods, then disappear (from the perspective of those in the realms they create/order) to leave their custodians to maintain their domains while they themselves fade into myth and become the subject of intense inquiry. The point of distinction, of course, is that the Titans' reliance on machines to produce life was a very interesting twist that fit what we knew about them and only really applied to mortals and certain demigods which were shrouded far enough in myth for it to be sensible for the more primitive people of Azeroth to mistake them for real deities. Their characterization, too, was in an interesting middle-ground between legitimately benevolent and powerful creator deities or possibly just an exceptionally powerful race of alien colonists. Although they were powerful, there also existed entities outside of their purview, limiting the reduction to the products of machinery to a certain set of races. Since the transformation was also unintentional, it added the extra facet of Yogg-Saron's Curse of Flesh to said races. Conversely, the First Ones reduce everything that we've seen prior to machines without the added facet of the Old Gods' meddling to justify their eventual transformation into free-willed, flesh-and-blood beings, and consequently demystifies and distills every other set of deities, races, etc.

[Super Dickmann]

What you on about? Genn and Tyrande completely ignored him in the middle of a war.

"I'm sorry, I didn't mean to disobey you." Genn snivelled before his master Anduin, already pondering how he would practice bilocation so he could be in both Dazar'alor and Darkshore, rendering his decision pointless.

"I will only sign a treaty in the Banshee's blood." Tyrande thundered powerlessly as she proceeded to kill 0 (zero) Horde outside of the strict confines of the Battle for Darkshore and then abided by the treaty throughout.

Anduin in BFA had no one disobeying him and his negative actions had zero consequences. He was the heart, soul and focus of the plot, elevating him through satellite characters, some fortunate enough to have their own wretched arc about how he's right (Saurfang), some not (Calia, Baine). And it is exactly Golden who's at the start of it. Compare Anduin in any of her books to Legion Anduin, who hesitates upon losing his father and mostly follows the guidance of a more experienced leader in Genn or to SL Anduin, who not only does nothing to help resolve the plot due but who is so shaken by how he on some level enjoyed the loss of responsibility and control while at the same time in full body paralysis.

[Sondrelk]

"I'm sorry, I didn't mean to disobey you." Genn snivelled before his master Anduin, already pondering how he would practice bilocation so he could be in both Dazar'alor and Darkshore, rendering his decision pointless.

"I will only sign a treaty in the Banshee's blood." Tyrande thundered powerlessly as she proceeded to kill 0 (zero) Horde outside of the strict confines of the Battle for Darkshore and then abided by the treaty throughout.

Anduin in BFA had no one disobeying him and his negative actions had zero consequences. He was the heart, soul and focus of the plot, elevating him through satellite characters, some fortunate enough to have their own wretched arc about how he's right (Saurfang), some not (Calia, Baine). And it is exactly Golden who's at the start of it. Compare Anduin in any of her books to Legion Anduin, who hesitates upon losing his father and mostly follows the guidance of a more experienced leader in Genn or to SL Anduin, who not only does nothing to help resolve the plot due but who is so shaken by how he on some level enjoyed the loss of responsibility and control while at the same time in full body paralysis.

Such a shame as well. In theory Anduins naive disposition and optimism should have been the perfect foil to Sylvanas' increasing ruthlessness and nihilism.

[Super Dickmann]

Such a shame as well. In theory Anduins naive disposition and optimism should have been the perfect foil to Sylvanas' increasing ruthlessness and nihilism.

Azerite and a living, never undead, Calia should've been the pretenses under which an Anduin who wanted to prove himself attacked Lordaeron. Lordaeron should also've been the focus of the emotion and pathos that side materials were spent on. I am 100% certain that at least Anduin attacking Lordaeron to establish his bonafides was part of the plan given they even talked about it in interviews.

[Sondrelk]

Azerite and a living, never undead, Calia should've been the pretenses under which an Anduin who wanted to prove himself attacked Lordaeron. Lordaeron should also've been the focus of the emotion and pathos that side materials were spent on. I am 100% certain that at least Anduin attacking Lordaeron to establish his bonafides was part of the plan given they even talked about it in interviews.

The pre-patch should have focused solely on Teldrassil, and 8.1 should have been Siege of Lordaeron, rather than Dazar'alor. It would have been the second Horde raid, but Dazar'alor already was that as well, and Lordaeron would have been much more interesting as a raid, which would also give much more focus on the conflict of the Forsaken choosing between their home and the increasingly obvious villainy of Sylvanas, culminating in her nuking her own home for poorly defined gains.

Really Lordaeron in general is the perfect narrative core to BfA. A human kingdom gained by Sylvanas under questionable means that nevertheless became a beacon of hope for the Forsaken, while simultaneously covering up the most blatantly evil acts of the Horde.
Really it's the perfect concentration of Horde ideology. An ill-gotten prize whose legitimacy hinges on the moral integrity of a hugely complex group of people. Constantly wavering between proof of evil and good.

[Super Dickmann]

The pre-patch should have focused solely on Teldrassil, and 8.1 should have been Siege of Lordaeron, rather than Dazar'alor. It would have been the second Horde raid, but Dazar'alor already was that as well, and Lordaeron would have been much more interesting as a raid, which would also give much more focus on the conflict of the Forsaken choosing between their home and the increasingly obvious villainy of Sylvanas, culminating in her nuking her own home for poorly defined gains.

Really Lordaeron in general is the perfect narrative core to BfA. A human kingdom gained by Sylvanas under questionable means that nevertheless became a beacon of hope for the Forsaken, while simultaneously covering up the most blatantly evil acts of the Horde.
Really it's the perfect concentration of Horde ideology. An ill-gotten prize whose legitimacy hinges on the moral integrity of a hugely complex group of people. Constantly wavering between proof of evil and good.

No, the pre-patch and lead-in should be Lordaeron and Teldrassil, if it's to happen and we're going with the same general premise, is later. Placing Lordaeron after Teldrassil has the same problem that it does in-game, just staggered out and that's that it takes Lordaeronians, especially Forsaken, out of their own plot. In-game, the Lordaeron story isn't actually about Lordaeron in any sense. We get zero perspective from those inside of having the Alliance seize the territory they've said that they'll have 'always and forever' and because Sylvanas gasses it there's also no reconquista. This is additionally the case because living Lordaeronians have no representative because Calia is a) undead b) her being pure as the driven snow means we can't have living Lordaeronians that want their land back and the undead gone.

Instead, if we're doing something BFA-shaped, the intro is about Lordaeron, argued in different ways Alliance-side. Anduin doesn't want to be an aggressor, but obviously doesn't trust Sylvanas, Genn is chomping at the bit given what she and the Forsaken did to Gilneas, his council - as in BTS, point out that azerite is a gamechanger and they need to act. He needs to live up to his dad who's last stated policy before making the 'mistake' of trusting Sylvanas on the Broken Shore was to contain her in Lordaeron. Add to that a returning Calia and a Lordaeronian diaspora, an emphasis on the human cost of the Forsaken holding of those lands for the living. Have some kind of smoking gun, can be something like the BTS Gathering or something less insufferably twee, but a point where he can justify being the aggressor to himself. He attacks Lordaeron. It's a bloody mess, but an actual plain victory, blue flags on Capital City, Sylvanas needs to bail to Orgrimmar. If you want to still keep some complicating element, make the Forsaken still hold the neighbouring areas - Silverpine and WPL means a constant funnel of support needs to go to maintain Capital City, which is still a wreck. Keep the burning Dead Scar callback which means nothing in-game.

Then, Sylvanas can sit and seethe in Orgrimmar. You still do the intro parts with Dazar'alor and Kul Tiras, preferably without Jaina's inexplicable change of heart, but Teldrassil is a raid further on. But much like how Lordaeron is about the actual people who care about it - the Forsaken cast on one side, the living Lordaeronians, Anduin, Genn etc. on the other, so is Teldrassil. It's about the Night Elves and Orcs, who actually completed for this land - Sylvanas has never been a Night Elf nemesis before this point, the Forsaken never related to them and making them such has been a disaster for both races to no narrative benefit. In as much as it's about Sylvanas, it's about how with fewer fronts to hold and one place to focus on, having lost the Forsaken home and if we keep BTS, their faith, trying to win the Horde over during the war by achieving what Garrosh couldn't - conquest of northern Kalimdor. Primarily it'd be about Saurfang, Tyrande and so forth. If the tree still gets torched in similar circumstances and we still get Sylvanas, then it'd still work better off. She realizes that she can't get the support of the rest of the Horde, that she's cornered and will eventually lose the war, that being put in the spotlight as Warchief has been a death sentence. At that point you can have the Val'kyr give her the Bald Man's pitch if you want to keep that storyline, and if not, you can change the circumstances of the Burning to not take the focus off of the night elves and orcs.

Making drama out of Sylvanas gassing Capital City doesn't work, even in the version we got, especially given she evacuated the civilians. Burning your capital to deny it to your enemy and win in the long run is a classic historical maneuver.

[Sondrelk]

No, the pre-patch and lead-in should be Lordaeron and Teldrassil, if it's to happen and we're going with the same general premise, is later. Placing Lordaeron after Teldrassil has the same problem that it does in-game, just staggered out and that's that it takes Lordaeronians, especially Forsaken, out of their own plot. In-game, the Lordaeron story isn't actually about Lordaeron in any sense. We get zero perspective from those inside of having the Alliance seize the territory they've said that they'll have 'always and forever' and because Sylvanas gasses it there's also no reconquista. This is additionally the case because living Lordaeronians have no representative because Calia is a) undead b) her being pure as the driven snow means we can't have living Lordaeronians that want their land back and the undead gone.

Instead, if we're doing something BFA-shaped, the intro is about Lordaeron, argued in different ways Alliance-side. Anduin doesn't want to be an aggressor, but obviously doesn't trust Sylvanas, Genn is chomping at the bit given what she and the Forsaken did to Gilneas, his council - as in BTS, point out that azerite is a gamechanger and they need to act. He needs to live up to his dad who's last stated policy before making the 'mistake' of trusting Sylvanas on the Broken Shore was to contain her in Lordaeron. Add to that a returning Calia and a Lordaeronian diaspora, an emphasis on the human cost of the Forsaken holding of those lands for the living. Have some kind of smoking gun, can be something like the BTS Gathering or something less insufferably twee, but a point where he can justify being the aggressor to himself. He attacks Lordaeron. It's a bloody mess, but an actual plain victory, blue flags on Capital City, Sylvanas needs to bail to Orgrimmar. If you want to still keep some complicating element, make the Forsaken still hold the neighbouring areas - Silverpine and WPL means a constant funnel of support needs to go to maintain Capital City, which is still a wreck. Keep the burning Dead Scar callback which means nothing in-game.

Then, Sylvanas can sit and seethe in Orgrimmar. You still do the intro parts with Dazar'alor and Kul Tiras, preferably without Jaina's inexplicable change of heart, but Teldrassil is a raid further on. But much like how Lordaeron is about the actual people who care about it - the Forsaken cast on one side, the living Lordaeronians, Anduin, Genn etc. on the other, so is Teldrassil. It's about the Night Elves and Orcs, who actually completed for this land - Sylvanas has never been a Night Elf nemesis before this point, the Forsaken never related to them and making them such has been a disaster for both races to no narrative benefit. In as much as it's about Sylvanas, it's about how with fewer fronts to hold and one place to focus on, having lost the Forsaken home and if we keep BTS, their faith, trying to win the Horde over during the war by achieving what Garrosh couldn't - conquest of northern Kalimdor. Primarily it'd be about Saurfang, Tyrande and so forth. If the tree still gets torched in similar circumstances and we still get Sylvanas, then it'd still work better off. She realizes that she can't get the support of the rest of the Horde, that she's cornered and will eventually lose the war, that being put in the spotlight as Warchief has been a death sentence. At that point you can have the Val'kyr give her the Bald Man's pitch if you want to keep that storyline, and if not, you can change the circumstances of the Burning to not take the focus off of the night elves and orcs.

Making drama out of Sylvanas gassing Capital City doesn't work, even in the version we got, especially given she evacuated the civilians. Burning your capital to deny it to your enemy and win in the long run is a classic historical maneuver.

If you go Lordaeron as the pre-patch event then I would argue that having the Alliance take it might work if you do myy idea of making it the 8.1 raid as well. If you then have Sylvanas gas the place by the end then it could all come together. You could then also have Anduins bleeding heart be a plot point. Maybe he intended to use Lordaeron as a bargaining chip for the Forsaken, intending to let them have it in return for a non-aggression pact.
Sylvanas then gassing the place and making it unliveable would work both from her warmonger perspective, and her faux-"good" perspective. She both ruins any chance at peace, and also gets to make a big deal about getting a new place for the Forsaken rather than living on Human handouts.
The Alliance and Horde would then effectively be stuck in limbo. The Alliance having both lost a large gain, and a bargaining chip. As well as the Horde no longer having a peaveful out, now having to avenge Lordaeron without being able to actually reclaim it, preventing a firm endgoal.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

If you go Lordaeron as the pre-patch event then I would argue that having the Alliance take it might work if you do myy idea of making it the 8.1 raid as well. If you then have Sylvanas gas the place by the end then it could all come together. You could then also have Anduins bleeding heart be a plot point. Maybe he intended to use Lordaeron as a bargaining chip for the Forsaken, intending to let them have it in return for a non-aggression pact.

I actually really like that idea. It gives the Horde something to shoot for other than inexplicably complying with Sylvie's every lunatic request—assuming, at least, the Alliance get to attack first as to provide stronger justification for the Horde.

[Sondrelk]

I actually really like that idea. It gives the Horde something to shoot for other than inexplicably complying with Sylvie's every lunatic request—assuming, at least, the Alliance get to attack first as to provide stronger justification for the Horde.

I think you need an inciting event to kick the Alliance off. Just having them suddenly decide to attack might be possible with some members, but I doubt Anduin would go gung-ho on immediately attacking what is for all intents and purposes a civilian city.
Before the Storm is adequate in that regards, but I feel an even stronger motive is needed. Something has to be the big inciting incident.

I also wholeheartedly believe that the most wasted storyline with potential in BfA is Saurfang's identity crisis about being a warrior for honor, who for a second or third time has been willingly dragged into a war of aggression.
Losing this aspect would also be a major loss to the Horde, who I think needed that storyline to really firmly place them in the good guys category, rather than the only ocassionally good one.

Hard to combine the two though. I do however think it's possible.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I think you need an inciting event to kick the Alliance off. Just having them suddenly decide to attack might be possible with some members, but I doubt Anduin would go gung-ho on immediately attacking what is for all intents and purposes a civilian city.
Before the Storm is adequate in that regards, but I feel an even stronger motive is needed. Something has to be the big inciting incident..

My feeling is that the Alliance do have substantial motive to attack the Horde on account of some of their members—by the beginning of Battle for Azeroth, the Horde is in possession of an extraordinarily powerful and potentially-destructive resource right at its wellspring. This poses an existential threat to the Alliance, at least insofar as the more cynical and alert members may be concerned. Presently, the Alliance would have four leaders that are familiar with what the blood of a Titan can do – Velen, Turalyon, and Alleria from their experiences with Argunite, and Tyrande from her experience with the Well of Eternity – the latter three of which are already more likely to be on the suspicious side in regards to the Horde accounting for their respective experiences with them and their histories.

Realistically, I'd figure the inciting incident could occur in Silithus—this would be a good place for the war to begin. Whether Lordaeron or Teldrassil succeeds the inciting incident in Silithus doesn't matter, insofar as it is made clear that the Alliance struck first, but with sufficient justification such that the Alliance can be firm in its assertion that it is in the right in the war. Admittedly, Anduin is the primary problem in having such an event occur—a devout peacenik like himself seems rather difficult to push into aggression, though I will note that Genn, Tyrande, Alleria, Turalyon, and at least some of the Council of Three Hammers may be inclined to support a hard approach to the Horde which could snowball into a Casus Belli for both factions.

As for Saurfang's loss of honor, I think that could still occur from general shell-shock more than having to strictly be on the side of the aggressors. I do think that most of what I think should've happened in BfA – such as Teldrassil occurring as an accident emerging from volatile Azerite being stored there after being extracted from Silithus – would kind of preclude much of Saurfang's arc from occurring in the way it did, it probably wouldn't be that much of a problem to refocus Saurfang's arc on a general state of war-weariness. Although I would find it distasteful on account of that it could come too close to framing one side as objectively good or bad, Sylvie would still be as unsavory as ever, so there's plenty of reason for him to object to any number of things Sylvie could've done beforehand, such as using chemical weaponry, or orchestrating or even just facilitating and ignoring miscellaneous war crimes in Ashenvale.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I think you need an inciting event to kick the Alliance off. Just having them suddenly decide to attack might be possible with some members, but I doubt Anduin would go gung-ho on immediately attacking what is for all intents and purposes a civilian city.
Before the Storm is adequate in that regards, but I feel an even stronger motive is needed. Something has to be the big inciting incident.

I also wholeheartedly believe that the most wasted storyline with potential in BfA is Saurfang's identity crisis about being a warrior for honor, who for a second or third time has been willingly dragged into a war of aggression.
Losing this aspect would also be a major loss to the Horde, who I think needed that storyline to really firmly place them in the good guys category, rather than the only ocassionally good one.

Hard to combine the two though. I do however think it's possible.

No thanks I don't want the Alliance to be the bad guy.