The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Villager720]

I doubt one new ability (if they even get one) and passives will kill most classes.

Yeah I don't think it's the mechanical aspect of the spec changes, I think it's locking yearned for class-fantasies behind the "must pick this to be competitive" meta.
And before folks hop in and say "that's still a choice and players don't have to do this", I point you to the class/convenant break downs from SLs.
You think 70% of warlocks wanted a tree-faerie vibe?

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Here's an advice: stop being a meta slave and play whatever the fuck you like. If you can't, you have no right to complain.

^^^there it is!

[Echil46]

Really? Because it's basically the only thing worth getting excited about.

If you're playing a spec with good talents, and they're going deep into the part of the spec fantasy you like, yeah, sure.

But if the first hero spec of your spec isn't good, if you don't like its fantasy, you're likely to play the second hero spec. And if it's bad, or if the fantasy isn't your kink either, you're left with two bad choices.

Making the hero spec shared by two specs is limiting, and limits the fantasy of the class. Lets say i'm a warrior. I wanna play fury, but i just wanna smash. No bladestorm or thunderclap. What's left ? Arms ? Or should i go Outlaw / Enhance ?

[Rageonit]

You think 70% of warlocks wanted a tree-faerie vibe?

All it proves is that most people don't give a damn about class fantasy - or at least give more damns about numbers.
This is the game you play.

[Villager720]

You're pretending like this doesn't happen since day one.
Always wanted to hurl huge fireballs as a mage? Well too bad, frost does more damage this patch.

Here's an advice: stop being a meta slave and play whatever the fuck you like. If you can't, you have no right to complain.

"Play whatever you like" is such a hilarious take when you consider how hardcore the community goes into meta-building the classes. Just cause you don't think it should be that way doesn't change reality. You're not playing your game when you're a lead weight in a +20. You're fucking up other people's game.

[Ersula]

It's Shadowland convenants, lite.
Always dreamt of being a dark ranger?
Too bad. You're survival or Pack Leader is the best meta spec.
Always wanted to summon a pit lord, mr. warlock? Well that sucks, cause you have to be a weird Satyr-themed spec instead because it does more damage.

Except you're not locked into one, and spec builds are extremely situational. This criticism has lost track of the reality of gameplay in Dragonflight, where players have an unlimited number of builds they choose based on what they need at that moment. If you don't have at least one build with each of the hero tree choices, you are griefing.

Not to mention they already gave players SO MUCH Dark Ranger customization. Not being the dark ranger tree because you're insisting on using hunter's meme spec is the epitome of entitlement. And that's coming from me, the Dark Ranger stan.

If you're playing a spec with good talents, and they're going deep into the part of the spec fantasy you like, yeah, sure.

If you haven't noticed, there's a real obvious single versus aoe focus of the hero trees, so you'll be switching between all of them in a raid. Hero talents just really isn't a class fantasy thing at all, it's a gameplay thing.

[Villager720]

All it proves is that most people don't give a damn about class fantasy - or at least give more damns about numbers.
This is the game you play.

No it means they'll generally always pick the meta over the fantasy, and then they'll be pissy about that situation.
Unless you've forgotten how well people liked Covenants.

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Except you're not locked into one, and spec builds are extremely situational. This criticism has lost track of the reality of gameplay in Dragonflight, where players have an unlimited number of builds they choose based on what they need at that moment. If you don't have at least one build with each of the hero tree choices, you are griefing.

Not to mention they already gave players SO MUCH Dark Ranger customization. Not being the dark ranger tree because you're insisting on using hunter's meme spec is the epitome of entitlement. And that's coming from me, the Dark Ranger stan.

I don't care about dark rangers personally, I'm just calling out how people will and are already feeling about it. Not agreeing with sentiment doesn't change sentiment.

[Rageonit]

"Play whatever you like" is such a hilarious take when you consider how hardcore the community goes into meta-building the classes. Just cause you don't think it should be that way doesn't change reality. You're not playing your game when you're a lead weight in a +20. You're fucking up other people's game.

Yeah, because being optimal in +20 is so heavy on fantasy! Listen, if that's your goal, than you too don't care much about fantasy, or at least care more about numbers. Why complain?
You can always make a Necrolord lock alt to RP after hours if that's your thing.

[Sondrelk]

Yeah I don't think it's the mechanical aspect of the spec changes, I think it's locking yearned for class-fantasies behind the "must pick this to be competitive" meta.
And before folks hop in and say "that's still a choice and players don't have to do this", I point you to the class/convenant break downs from SLs.
You think 70% of warlocks wanted a tree-faerie vibe?

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^^^there it is!

It being a meta pick is a problem for a small subset of the playerbase. I imagine it's much more important that you have sought after class fantasy locked behind a gameplay option, meaning you can't pick say, the Mage talent that gives you Kael'thas orbs while also having gameplay more reminiscent of the Frostfire tree.

It was similar with Covenants. Meta picks were one thing, by more important was not having an enjoyable ability because you really wanted the covenant aesthetic, or alternatively disliking your chosen covenant, but loving the ability.

[Echil46]

All it proves is that most people don't give a damn about class fantasy - or at least give more damns about numbers.
This is the game you play.

Why should my healer and my tank care about my class fantasy ? They shouldn't. But they invite me based on the numbers they're lead to believe i'll provide. Sure i'll play the non tree faerie spec of the warlock. But what good does it do me when that'll make me a pariah or at best, make me feel miserable about my spec ?
Sureyou can ignore the damage metters. But you can't make other players do the same.

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It being a meta pick is a problem for a small subset of the playerbase. I imagine it's much more important that you have sought after class fantasy locked behind a gameplay option, meaning you can't pick say, the Mage talent that gives you Kael'thas orbs while also having gameplay more reminiscent of the Frostfire tree.

It was similar with Covenants. Meta picks were one thing, by more important was not having an enjoyable ability because you really wanted the covenant aesthetic, or alternatively disliking your chosen covenant, but loving the ability.

I wanna play arms. I like arms as it is. I don't wanna go bladestorm, so no slayer. I don't like what colossus offers. Should i just roll over, accept the class fantasy of my class is suddenly gone, and reroll DK, Paladin, Monk or Survival ?

[Rageonit]

Why should my healer and my tank care about my class fantasy ? They shouldn't. But they invite me based on the numbers they're lead to believe i'll provide. Sure i'll play the non tree faerie spec of the warlock. But what good does it do me when that'll make me a pariah or at best, make me feel miserable about my spec ?
Sureyou can ignore the damage metters. But you can't make other players do the same.

Here's a story for you.
There was once a lock who wasn't a Night Fae. He signed up for a m+, they did it in time and nobody said shit.
THE END

That story is true in 99% of cases (if you know how to play your class).
And if you want to push to the extreme, you won't care about fantasy anyway, because every little detail of your spec is already predetermined.

[Villager720]

It being a meta pick is a problem for a small subset of the playerbase. I imagine it's much more important that you have sought after class fantasy locked behind a gameplay option, meaning you can't pick say, the Mage talent that gives you Kael'thas orbs while also having gameplay more reminiscent of the Frostfire tree.

It was similar with Covenants. Meta picks were one thing, by more important was not having an enjoyable ability because you really wanted the covenant aesthetic, or alternatively disliking your chosen covenant, but loving the ability.

Hey I'm not going to say I'm assuredly right - I could be wholly wrong and folks don't mind.
I'm just calling out what I see as the major "booboo" for TWW as we roll into Alpha. I hope I'm wrong, but looking at how SL Covenants went over, I'm fearful lots of folks will see the similarities and that'll be a negative against what looks to be a promising expansion.
And it feels like an easy fix to me; if Blizz just pulled out any "major class fantasy" aspects from the talents, and then overhauled the glyph system to add in said major fantasies, I think they'd dodge this problem.

[Ersula]

I wanna play arms. I like arms as it is. I don't wanna go bladestorm, so no slayer. I don't like what colossus offers. Should i just roll over, accept the class fantasy of my class is suddenly gone, and reroll DK, Paladin, Monk or Survival ?

Imagine saying "I don't want to use Mind Games or Holy word shield because it doesn't match my class fantasy" as a Priest. Get out of here.

I don't care about dark rangers personally, I'm just calling out how people will and are already feeling about it. Not agreeing with sentiment doesn't change sentiment.

Complaining about how they feel about gameplay they haven't played yet? Trash.

[Villager720]

Here's a story for you.
There was once a lock who wasn't a Night Fae. He signed up for a m+, they did it in time and nobody said shit.
THE END

That story is true in 99% of cases (if you know how to play your class).
And if you want to push to the extreme, you won't care about fantasy anyway, because every little detail of your spec is already predetermined.

Here's another story.
There once were thousands of warlocks who saw that they were the most useful to their groups if they went Night Fae, even though they wanted to be Venthyr. So they went Nght Fae and resented the main box feature of an expansion.
That story is also true.

[Lahis]

Rewards for the pre-event
https://www.wowhead.com/news/first-l...h-event-338812

are the argus "naaru" set recolrs as void versions
https://www.wowhead.com/news/new-dat...og-sets-337361

And the priest tier set is literally naaru inspired.
https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/upl...e633e15c7e.jpg

I'm calling it now again: The Radiant Song will be from a Naaru, not the world soul. A special Naaru. Either E'lune or An'she/Mu'sha. Could all be one and the same.

If there is one thing we can be thankful for SL for, it is that it finally put rest any bullshit theories that Elune is a Naaru.

[Makorus]

It's Shadowland convenants, lite.
Always dreamt of being a dark ranger?
Too bad. You're survival or Pack Leader is the best meta spec.
Always wanted to summon a pit lord, mr. warlock? Well that sucks, cause you have to be a weird Satyr-themed spec instead because it does more damage.

They should just have been talents, not class fantasies.
And while I'm not the first to have this take, it is clearly spreading as folks look over the trees and consider their implications.

As friggin GameSpot put it : "While it feels like Hero Talents aren't nearly as impactful as Covenants were in Shadowlands, and are thankfully free to change or swap between at any moment, it does feel like the idea is fundamentally flawed and that new talents and unique class fantasies should be two separate things for players to choose."

That whole argument makes no sense to me still and completely misses the point why covenants were bad.

Let's say you really wanna play Dark Ranger, but it is worse than Pack Leader. Outside of some extreme fringe cases, like early Heroic/Mythic raiding, you can still play it. And even if it is so bad in comparison (which it almost definitely wont be), you can do the group content as Pack Leader and then instantly change back for all the other content you wanna be a Dark Ranger for.

Like, this is literally not a new problem and is just an issue with any type of choice? I think Dimensional Rifts for Destro is one of the coolest spells in the game, yet for the majority of DF it was just terrible to a point where you didn't pick it. Evokers never picked Firestorm, even though it is such a cool ability.

Your Pit Lord argument LITERALLY is an argument against "they should have just been talents" because that's literally what happened with Nether Portals ??????

Any type of talent, unless it is a grey blob of nothing, is inherently in some type of fantasy.

The issue with Covenants was that you were unable to play what you want, when you could. I couldn't play Necrolord Arcane Mage for open world and maybe LFR and Normal, and then switch to Kyrian Arcane for my main raids.

[Villager720]

Complaining about how they feel about gameplay they haven't played yet? Trash.

I feel like you missed the forest for the trees here.
The issue isn't the talent tree mechanics, its the heavy layering of fantasy in the trees alongside the mechanical aspect.
I don't need to know how Evokers play mechanically to say "oh I want to be the dragon person".

[Ersula]

Here's another story.
There once were thousands of warlocks who saw that they were the most useful to their groups if they went Night Fae, even though they wanted to be Venthyr. So they went Nght Fae and resented the main box feature of an expansion.
That story is also true.

Except that situation won't happen, because you aren't locked into Hero talents the way you were in covenants. You can change them on the fly. We've covered this already.

I don't need to know how Evokers play mechanically to say "oh I want to be the dragon person".

Just like how you aren't locked into a hero tree when you create your character, nor even when choosing a spec. These are not real issues.

[Enrif]

If there is one thing we can be thankful for SL for, it is that it finally put rest any bullshit theories that Elune is a Naaru.

did it though? Elune could be anything. Being related to the Winter Queen, doesn't disqualify her from being a naaru.

[Rageonit]

Here's another story.
There once were thousands of warlocks who saw that they were the most useful to their groups if they went night fae, even though they wanted to be Venthyr. So they went night fae and resented the main box feature of an expansion.
That story is also true.

Players change specs to be most useful. Heck, players often reroll classes to be most useful. What's new?
This is not bad design. This is a mindset. If you do that against your own desires... Don't?

[Villager720]

Your Pit Lord argument LITERALLY mirrors the argument against "they should have just been talents" because that's literally what happened with Nether Portals ??????.

When I say "they should just have been talents" I don't mean the spells, which are talents.
I mean the "hero talents" shouldn't have the big class fantasty vibes baked in.