The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Makorus]

Shadowlands had 3 raids with 35 raid bosses total. Dragonflight had 28 and it's last raid was released less than a year after the expansion's original release date.

Now, after giving early access for a price tag of 90 gd dollars they're also saying the subsequent expansions will be shorter than the 24 month average like that's supposed to be a feature. This might mean that the content drought is shorter, but based on Blizzard's history (namely dragonflight, wrath & WoD) it's more likely that the seasonal content is just going to end sooner.

They pretty much lucked out with Plunderstorm & Remix because they're really fun, but they're hardly substantive content. You'd think they'd follow the 2023 model to prevent a content drought but that doesn't seem to be the developer's goal; instead just frontloading an expansion & then just giving us some sort of rehashed minigame & keep saying "don't worry, the expansion is coming" after a blizzcon where they showed zero gameplay footage.

These are all red flags.Stop trying to frame content updates in a subscription based game like they're free. The patches are part of the expansion pricetag. If you start thinking that way then WoD was their ideal business model.Blizzard might as well just delete retail now if the players consider old content with a minor facelift as something worth between 15 to 90 dollars.

There we go again with the number of raid bosses, or number of zones as if that means anything.

Yeah, they could make a raid with 100 bosses, all of the bosses only cast Fireball, but who cares because the only thing that matters if the quantity!

Here's a new continent, it has 500 zones, they are all incredibly small and have subpar storylines, but it's the quantity baybeeeeee!

Here are 10 systems that are going to be universally hated, what a great content-filled expansions, I really got my money worth!

Wrath was better for raids than WoD because it had a higher number of raid instances and bosses! Duh! Legion is a worse expansion because it only has 5 zones compared to 6!

Numbers mean everything!

[Dracullus]

Of course they are not. But they are part of the package. DF gave less than even SL, WoD and Cata when it comes to raids. I am confident in saying that DF had less content than BfA or Legion. I think at the end of the day it did have more content than SL though not by that wide a margin but it also delivered it at a vastly better pace. DF is certainly a better expansion than average with very successful systems which is what WoW has done consistently bad on for a fairly long time now but I do feel the idea that it has tons of content is an illusion because of the very good pacing.

With current system raids simply lost special status they had for most of WoW lifespan. We no longer get initial raid that had no tier and was shorter (in MoP only few weeks, in WoD 2 months, in Legion/BfA 4 months - you see where trend was going), we straight up start with seasonal tier raids that last 5-6 months.

Instead DF got more world content, we never got 2 big zones before (+1 revamp Broken Shore style) in patches, simple as that. Legion that you bring up for some reason (cause I agree that BfA could be bigger than DF, but Legion?) had Broken Shore (almost devoid of any story I remind) and 1 big zone (split into 3 minizones), not too mention 4/5 Legion zones are not really big. DF has 4 Suramars.

Legion is often inflated in our minds because of class campaigns - but I suggest to look at them once again, they all follow model: unique prologue -> farm shit/mission table -> unique chapter -> farm shit/mission table -> unique epilogue -> 7.2 chapter. When we put all stuff together, it's substantial piece of content, but you can counter it with all story questlines from just minor patches of DF (blue dragonflight + forbidden reach + eons fringe + tauren/centaur + several minor like 1.7 or Valdrakken rebels stuff).

Overall I think either BfA or DF is biggest (of course not with raids where DF is smallest), but obviously DF uses existing content smarter (changing M+ pool, remix) and has many version of classic to fill remaining gaps.

Are we at the pretend patch zones that become dead content almost immediately are something to look forward to part of the release cycle?

Are we at the pretend raids that become dead content almost immediately are something to look forward to part of the release cycle? You see, I can play this game too, pretending stuff I don't like doesn't exist.

You think I'm exaggerating? Then what is raid for folks who just do LFR once and focus on collecting/achievements or M+ players who just storm through heroic once for curve and never go back? Same thing that open world zone is for mythic raider.

[Makorus]

Are we at the pretend raids that become dead content almost immediately are something to look forward to part of the release cycle? You see, I can play this game too, pretending stuff I don't like doesn't exist.

You think I'm exaggerating? Then what is raid for folks who just do LFR once and focus on collecting/achievements or M+ players who just storm through heroic once for curve and never go back? Same thing that open world zone is for mythic raider.

I mean, raid is the content that lasts the longest without being artificially inflated, along with M+. People genuinely like to raid, and Mythic raiders have been raiding with no real rewards for the last two seasons now.

Would anyone do storms or whatever if there wasn't an achievement behind it for killing 200 mobs?

[Dracullus]

I mean, raid is the content that lasts the longest without being artificially inflated, along with M+. People genuinely like to raid, and Mythic raiders have been raiding with no real rewards for the last two seasons now.

Would anyone do storms or whatever if there wasn't an achievement behind it for killing 200 mobs?

I repeat, depend from who you ask. World content is content raider what even look at and completionist will farm until he got everything. Obviously many, many parts of world are short live, but that's the catch - they are many.

Of course very often difficulty (or rather lack of it) of world content is something where game has a lot to improve on, that's what we are hoping to find in delves - flexible dificulty that award better stuff for bigger challenge.

[Makorus]

I repeat, depend from who you ask. World content is content raider what even look at and completionist will farm until he got everything. Obviously many, many parts of world are short live, but that's the catch - they are many.

Of course very often difficulty (or rather lack of it) of world content is something where game has a lot to improve on, that's what we are hoping to find in delves - flexible dificulty that award better stuff for bigger challenge.

But that's the issue, world content is inherently not good content because if it wasn't for the rewards, no one would do it. Would you do a Hunt if there wasn't a satchel? Would you do the Keep raid if there wasn't anything to gain? Have you done a Keep since you got the achievements and the max renown?

Torghast was the first big and good step in the right direction, but the playerbase screwed the pooch by not voicing their complaints properly and making it seem like Torghast was the problem when it was the rewards.

Raids and M+, you could remove the rewards (and once again, Mythic Raiding has no real rewards outside of some trinkets for some classes because gearing through M+ is just so much better), and people would still do it, because people genuinely enjoy the act of raiding itself.

[Dracullus]

But that's the issue, world content is inherently not good content because if it wasn't for the rewards, no one would do it.

Oh yeah, everyone would raid and M+ without rewards xD.

And to be more precise - beating raid boss (once) and trying to get highest M+/PVP score among your friends or region ARE rewards for competivive people. But farming that for sake of just playing this content? No one would fucking do it.

[Nymrohd]

They now launch patches with a bevy of open world stuff to do, following the trend that loads of WoW players are more casual collectors than sweaty raiders.

I mean the moment you go for "Sweaty raiders" you make your bias obvious. Number of encounters matters far more for people who raid normal or heroic than for people who raid Mythic (the vast majority of which spend most of the season in progression anyway).
And I am not even someone who mostly raids, I do all content. I found the bevy of open world stuff very low quality. Jesus multiple things they've added months ago still have bugs. I'm an avid collector and I feel their collections are just too bloated. Far too many reskins.

What they need is to get people back and that requires much better marketing hooks. I don't think TWW has that. The people like us who are playing will buy it because we know WoW is playing well at the moment. But TWW just did not have anything that would make you come back to check it out imo. Unknown locations for a plot someone who isn't playing probably doesn't know, no new class, a race no one asked for. The big thing that might get people back probably is warbands and Hero Talents (and people who will come back because they think they'll be able to play like Sylvanas will be sorely disappointed).

[Makorus]

Oh yeah, everyone would raid and M+ without rewards xD.

Oh no, not everyone, of course not, but I still think a good chunk of people raid/do M+ not because of the reward but because they enjoy doing it. You are aware there are people pushing keys that are higher than 20? You are aware that there are people who Mythic raid and don't get CE? What rewards do they get, exactly? Every raider who takes the game halfway seriously has been max ilvl since Week 3, so they clearly aren't doing it for the gear.

Meanwhile, would anyone do any DF World Content if there weren't achievements requiring you to grind it?

[Nymrohd]

Are we at the pretend raids that become dead content almost immediately are something to look forward to part of the release cycle? You see, I can play this game too, pretending stuff I don't like doesn't exist.

Part of the problem is, patch zones go dead much faster than they did before. And I don't know why. Zaralek went dead way too fast.

[Makorus]

Part of the problem is, patch zones go dead much faster than they did before. And I don't know why. Zaralek went dead way too fast.

I think a big issue is because everything in all the new zones is on a timer, so the only time people would go to Zaralek is when Researchers was up (and that was a shitty event so no one ever went at all).

[Dracullus]

Oh no, not everyone, of course not, but I still think a good chunk of people raid/do M+ not because of the reward but because they enjoy doing it. You are aware there are people pushing keys that are higher than 20? You are aware that there are people who Mythic raid and don't get CE? What rewards do they get, exactly? Every raider who takes the game halfway seriously has been max ilvl since Week 3, so they clearly aren't doing it for the gear.

Meanwhile, would anyone do any DF World Content if there weren't achievements requiring you to grind it?

I explained, beating hard content is also reward. But only for competitive people. Maybe it's hard to understand, but not everyone is competitive, in that world Dark Souls would be more popular than GTA.

But how it's relevant to discussion anyway? World content is not relevant because... people wouldnt farm it without rewards? Well guess that, it has rewards and many, many people play WoW without touching raids/M+/PVP. Hence Blizzard switching to current model where they add more world content, but you don't get initial raid with shorter lifespan.

Part of the problem is, patch zones go dead much faster than they did before. And I don't know why. Zaralek went dead way too fast.

Zaralek was dead on arrival cause it had pretty bad design - it was really non-solo friendly for content that should be mostly for solo players. Especially with rares, requiring group, spawning instantly, having pretty shit loot, bad rng for cosmetics and bi-weekly lockout, zone looked completely dead all the time. Only sniffing scenarios were pretty fun. Also, casual gearing moved pretty fast to Time Rifts just few weeks later.

Compare it for example to how popular Forbidden Reach was when it was current content.

[Cheezits]

Besides revealing aspects of future patchs, such as additional ARs or zone ideas, is a content creator event for TWW alpha really necessary? What's there to cover about launch that Blizzcon didn't?

[Marlamin]

Besides revealing aspects of future patchs, such as additional ARs or zone ideas, is a content creator event for TWW alpha really necessary? What's there to cover about launch that Blizzcon didn't?

I guess we'll find out, but I'm going to guess they're getting early access to whatever is available for testing when it opens up. We didn't get that at BlizzCon after all.

[Nymrohd]

I think a big issue is because everything in all the new zones is on a timer, so the only time people would go to Zaralek is when Researchers was up (and that was a shitty event so no one ever went at all).

I am not sure that's all there is to it. I remember staying for months on the MoP zones (ToT and TI) and they were always busy. Argus was certainly always busy (not that it mattered, we were so strong almost any spec could still take down things solo).

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Zaralek was dead on arrival cause it had pretty bad design - it was really non-solo friendly for content that should be mostly for solo players. Especially with rares, requiring group, spawning instantly, having pretty shit loot, bad rng for cosmetics and bi-weekly lockout, zone looked completely dead all the time. Only sniffing scenarios were pretty fun. Also, casual gearing moved pretty fast to Time Rifts just few weeks later.

Compare it for example to how popular Forbidden Reach was when it was current content.

Sure but Forbidden Reach was also current content for only six weeks and it was ludicrously rewarding for casuals when it came to gear ilvl.

[Dracullus]

Sure but Forbidden Reach was also current content for only six weeks and it was ludicrously rewarding for casuals when it came to gear ilvl.

If Zaralek would be that popular at least 2-3 weeks we wouldn't have this conversation. It was really dead after people finished campaign. And nothing stopped Blizzard with Zaralek being rewarding too with just giving slightly better account-wide gear.

[Raetary]

Part of the problem is, patch zones go dead much faster than they did before. And I don't know why. Zaralek went dead way too fast.

I felt like it was a case of overrewarding.
You were done with the rep pretty quickly and the zone basically showered you with good gear that you really didn't need to spend much time in there.

ED had mostly the same issues.

[Nymrohd]

If Zaralek would be that popular at least 2-3 weeks we wouldn't have this conversation. It was really dead after people finished campaign. And nothing stopped Blizzard with Zaralek being rewarding too with just giving slightly better account-wide gear.

Think is, ED did not do that much better. Oh sure there are enough people to get Superbloom and flowers done on reset day but you struggle to find anyone for the big rares. Thankfully they also made weaker rares as well. There is a clear balance when it comes to rewards that they have not figured out yet. I'll agree that Account-wide might be the answer; however much they insist on people having to play their alts, if players can grind stuff for their alts on their main, they always seem to do it; personally I just find it very enjoyable to be able to gear up my alt that way.

And perhaps they need to reconsider how fast someone should be expected to cap reputations. I remember no lifing Nazjatar and Mechagon when they came out and getting flight in an extraordinarily short time. Dream Wardens and Loamm both got done way too fast. I think they need to have the gameplay rewards early on and then have much longer tracks with just cosmetics.

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I explained, beating hard content is also reward. But only for competitive people. Maybe it's hard to understand, but not everyone is competitive, in that world Dark Souls would be more popular than GTA.

I think there are many levels of "hard". People want to be challenged but only up to a specific level. There are plenty of people who do lower difficulty raid and dungeon content because that is the challenge level that is right for them and as long as they do feel a challenge, it is rewarding. It is problematic that there is almost no challenge in the open world and it's not like this is unique to WoW.

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Besides revealing aspects of future patchs, such as additional ARs or zone ideas, is a content creator event for TWW alpha really necessary? What's there to cover about launch that Blizzcon didn't?

They could show a few things from the dungeons. We only have the names. And maybe they surprise us with dynamic ground mounts.

[Dracullus]

Think is, ED did not do that much better. Oh sure there are enough people to get Superbloom and flowers done on reset day but you struggle to find anyone for the big rares. Thankfully they also made weaker rares as well. There is a clear balance when it comes to rewards that they have not figured out yet. I'll agree that Account-wide might be the answer; however much they insist on people having to play their alts, if players can grind stuff for their alts on their main, they always seem to do it; personally I just find it very enjoyable to be able to gear up my alt that way.

ED is way better, of course not big rares that are still useless, but when I was playing it there was also ton of people flying around. Now probably not, but you know it's 5 months later.

And we know TWW is following account-wide route and not only for world stuff, it's literally whole point of warbound gear.

[Hyrja]

Its probably gonna be the same as with DF. Content creators can privately play the alpha 1-2 days in advance to make videos etc. Then wednesday/thursday the embargo lifts and they can release everything they made and the alpha launches a few hours later.

[Nymrohd]

ED is way better, of course not big rares that are still useless, but when I was playing it there was also ton of people flying around. Now probably not, but you know it's 5 months later.

And we know TWW is following account-wide route and not only for world stuff, it's literally whole point of warbound gear.

I think it's also kind of weird that Zaralek and ED did not have some big meta-achievement rewarding a mount. The ED achievement was too easy and the Zaralek achievement was too hard but only gave a title. Imo they messed up adding all the good rewards this late with A World Awoken, they'd have kept a lot more people doing the zones if they had mount rewards (and in ED's case, if they had added more/harder achievements to it). Maybe the fact that Cooling the Research Field was not in World Awoken is for the best though.

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Its probably gonna be the same as with DF. Content creators can privately play the alpha 1-2 days in advance to make videos etc. Then wednesday/thursday the embargo lifts and they can release everything they made and the alpha launches a few hours later.

Easier to get the content out that way than them doing some proper blogs sadly