The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Vakir]

For me what DF did best was systems. And after multiple expansion in a row where systems made a mess of the game (Legion included), this was such a welcome change. The talent system, reward system and not M+ changes are all great changes. Professions need a lot of work but they are on the right track and more importantly they managed to make the code changes they needed to get them to work.

Yup - and sometimes backend things are better for the game then having more numbers of stuff. Everyone is complaining about Hero Talents, but nobody seems to understand that 1-2 more rows of talents as they stand are gonna create insane power creep which is what they had to avoid in regards to Mists.

Old games with lots of backlog can get real messy.

I do hope they do some extended Delve testing at the start similar to what they did with Torghast in SL. That's the big unknown for TWW

And I hope they don't take the absolute wrong lessons away from said testing, like what they did with Torghast. :/

I see we are doing the same thing again. Just like with WoD, people now treat SL as some kind of a traumatic experience that mentally scarred them for life, when in reality, it was simply a weak expansion. It still had great things like raids (mostly CN) and dungeons, but some people can't seem to look past Covs and Korthia (which grind was btw so much faster than abything in BfA).

I can't speak for anyone else, but I truly am not doing the 2008-angry-reviewer style hyperbole.

It was really, really that bad. Even if 9.2 was serviceable overall as a zone and full of content and mounts to craft and whatever, it doesn't change how much of a bad taste everything else still left, including the issues in 9.2 anyway in terms of the overall vibe and contentiousness of its lore/setting.

[Ersula]

Sure, but that doesn't make Shadowlands good or liked no matter how many people misuse that statistic. Shadowlands did draw in a lot of people, but then what?

They left.

Shadowlands was hyped, but once people got in and got to actually try it, they were very disappointed, leading to the largest subscriber loss in WoW's history. Or, in other words, people came back because they expected Shadowlands to be good, then quickly left once they learned that it was not.

"Shadowlands had the biggest loss of WoW subs ever" is a bit unfair for several reasons:

• We're actually in the most stable sub era in WoW's history. We've been fluctuating between 8 and 4 million for almost a decade.
• The only subscription figure we never got is what WoD was at it's lowest. (The end of Mop was 7.7 million & the height of Legion was about 7.5 million.)
• If Classic hadn't been released BFA's would have been way lower.
• BFA's loss of subs after launch is more severe than Shadowlands'. 9.1 actually caused a noticeable uptick in subscriptions while none of BFA's patches did.
• Dragonflight reveal & pre-order was 8 whole months later than an expansion reveal usually is. Shadowland's lowest point is past where there's usually a huge influx of renewed subscriptions in response to a new expansion. It would be as if they still hadn't revealed TWW or been non-committal if there even would be a new expansion on this very day, today.

It's just absurd to say Legion & Dragonflight are good while Shadowlands is bad based on subscription numbers....when Shadowlands & Dragonflight are closer to Legion in sub numbers than anything that came before WoD.

[Raetary]

I see we are doing the same thing again. Just like with WoD, people now treat SL as some kind of a traumatic experience that mentally scarred them for life, when in reality, it was simply a weak expansion. It still had great things like raids (mostly CN) and dungeons, but some people can't seem to look past Covs and Korthia (which grind was btw so much faster than abything in BfA).

I don't consider it some traumatic experience, no.

But i do consider it the one expansion that genuinely made me question whether i want to keep engaging with this franchise or not.
Something that not even wod managed to do.

And i will judge it accordingly.

[justwatching]

First of all BFAs low was before the release of Classic and was in a similiar category as SLs low which includes Classic so without that SL wouldve dipped way way lower. Also to pretend that 9.1 caused an uptick is some revisionist history.


Blizzard themselves talked about the amount of damage SL did(a large part of the GDC presentation was about that) and that they are still in the process of recovering from that.


BFA was bad but SL almost killed the brand.

[Ersula]

Also to pretend that 9.1 caused an uptick is some revisionist history.

I don't know what to tell you. It's all right here. Shadowlands had a 9.1 uptick. BFA's upticks are just Classic & the announcement of Shadowlands.

[Khaza-R]

I also don't buy that BfA lost more subs than SL for the sheer fact that COVID lockdowns occurred during 8.3 and I can remember meeting dozens of people who hadn't played the game in years.

Where as with SL you had a questionable expansion, lawsuit drama and things naturally opening back up.

[justwatching]

I don't know what to tell you. It's all right here. Shadowlands had a 9.1 uptick. BFA's upticks are just Classic & the announcement of Shadowlands.

Patch 9.1 released at the end of June 2021 about a month after TBC Classic. There is no uptick in the graph at that point. Also I love how you ignore the existence of TBC.


EDIT: The uptick that I think you are referring to is chronologically shortly before the release of TBC Classic. The only thing I can see is a slight flattening of the decline probably caused by TBC Classic and possibly 9.1.5("the ripcord").

[Ersula]

I also don't buy that BfA lost more subs than SL for the sheer fact that COVID lockdowns occurred during 8.3 and I can remember meeting dozens of people who hadn't played the game in years.

Where as with SL you had a questionable expansion, lawsuit drama and things naturally opening back up.

Patch 9.1 released at the end of June 2021 about a month after TBC Classic. There is no uptick in the graph at that point. Also I love how you ignore the existence of TBC.

So when subs are good it's classic's fault & when subs are bad it's retail's fault? That's convenient.

For being the expansion that almost killed the brand it's weird that it's subscription figures are extremely close to Legion's. It's almost like that statement is enormous hyperbole.

[justwatching]

So when subs are good it's classic's fault & when subs are bad it's retail's fault? That's convenient.

No one said that. You tried to attribute a slight flattening of the decline solely to 9.1 and spin it into an uptick completely ignoring that TBC Classic launched in exactly that time frame. 9.1 was a complete disaster hence why 9.1.5 became known as the ripcord patch.


I really dont know why you're trying to defend Shadowlands when even Blizzard wouldnt.

For being the expansion that almost killed the brand it's weird that it's subscription figures are extremely close to Legion's. It's almost like that statement is enormous hyperbole.

You can keep pretending that its not the case but Classic has at least 2-3 Million active players at that point in time(I'm guesstimating based on raid activity). So comparing subs like that is just intellectually disingenuous.

Believe what you want to believe. I'll stay in reality where the developer himself admitted it was a massive failure.

[Varodoc]

No one said that. You tried to attribute a slight flattening of the decline solely to 9.1 and spin it into an uptick completely ignoring that TBC Classic launched in exactly that time frame. 9.1 was a complete disaster hence why 9.1.5 became known as the ripcord patch.


I really dont know why you're trying to defend Shadowlands when even Blizzard wouldnt.

It's all the same with these people, they defend Shadowlands because Sylvanas got a redemption arc, simultaneously they hate BFA because Sylvanas was the villain.

As I already said, they are trying to mask their agenda with "gameplay"; but they don't actually care about the gameplay.

Reverse the story arcs (so BfA gets the Hero/Redeemed Sylvanas story arc) and I guarantee you he'd be shilling for BfA.

[Worldshaper]

Alpha definitely dropping Thursday, like SL and DF before it.

Guessing Hero Talents on Tuesday, the Collector's Edition on Wednesday.

The Alpha news dump/embargo will either happen on Wednesday to coincide with the CE becoming available for purchase (they'd likely promote that at the end of a stream or blog post), or it'll happen on Thursday so we don't have to wait a full 24H between that and the Alpha dropping.

Though I suppose they could break tradition and release Alpha on Wednesday already, but Thursday feels more likely to me right now.

Super excited, Monday/Tuesday can't go by quick enough!

[Khaza-R]

So when subs are good it's classic's fault & when subs are bad it's retail's fault? That's convenient.

For being the expansion that almost killed the brand it's weird that it's subscription figures are extremely close to Legion's. It's almost like that statement is enormous hyperbole.

Its impossible to say since Blizzard is the only one who knows the distinction. Hence why I didn't even mentions retail vs classic in my post. I am just saying logically, its hard to believe BfA had more drop off than SL given the events going on at that time.

[justwatching]

It's all the same with these people, they defend Shadowlands because Sylvanas got a redemption arc, simultaneously they hate BFA because Sylvanas was the villain.

As I already said, they are trying to mask their agenda with "gameplay"; but they don't actually care about the gameplay.

Reverse the story arcs (so BfA gets the Hero/Redeemed Sylvanas story arc) and I guarantee you he'd be shilling for BfA.

You know I can deal with a subjective argument but I really dont know why people feel the need to make shit up just to justify their preferences. It's like people forgot they are allowed to like something that isnt hugely popular.

[Varodoc]

You know I can deal with a subjective argument but I really dont know why people feel the need to make shit up just to justify their preferences. It's like people forgot they are allowed to like something that isnt hugely popular.

Because I am right. There is a correlation between shilling for Shadowlands and liking Sylvanas and I have it all figured out.

Pretty much every single SL shill I have come across also likes Sylvanas. It is not a coincidence.

You are welcomed to believe that there is no hidden agenda here, but you would be wrong.

[justwatching]

Because I am right. There is a correlation between shilling for Shadowlands and liking Sylvanas and I have it all figured out.

You are welcomed to believe that there is no hidden agenda here, but you would be wrong.

You are probably right. I wasnt really disagreeing with you.

[Reive]

Because I am right. There is a correlation between shilling for Shadowlands and liking Sylvanas and I have it all figured out.

Pretty much every single SL shill I have come across also likes Sylvanas. It is not a coincidence.

You are welcomed to believe that there is no hidden agenda here, but you would be wrong.

i liked shadowlands because i liked the zones and because it had the best class design since wod

i couldn't care less about silvanus

[Varodoc]

i liked shadowlands because i liked the zones and because it had the best class design since wod

i couldn't care less about silvanus

And do you also despise BfA with a passion like that other poster?

[Reive]

And do you also despise BfA with a passion like that other poster?

i didn't play bfa when it was live. i quit in legion and came back for shadowlands prepatch. the little bfa i did was fine for me. boralus is probably my favorite hub

[Nymrohd]

i liked shadowlands because i liked the zones and because it had the best class design since wod

i couldn't care less about silvanus

You really felt SL had great class design? I mean it was not bad but I felt Legion was better and DF is much better

[Darkarath]

Because I am right. There is a correlation between shilling for Shadowlands and liking Sylvanas and I have it all figured out.

Pretty much every single SL shill I have come across also likes Sylvanas. It is not a coincidence.

You are welcomed to believe that there is no hidden agenda here, but you would be wrong.

Hahahaha

Good old Varodoc, you believing everything that you think always make me smile. It is going to be fun to follow your comments from TWW onwards.