The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Sondrelk]

Yeah I don't think it's the mechanical aspect of the spec changes, I think it's locking yearned for class-fantasies behind the "must pick this to be competitive" meta.
And before folks hop in and say "that's still a choice and players don't have to do this", I point you to the class/convenant break downs from SLs.
You think 70% of warlocks wanted a tree-faerie vibe?

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^^^there it is!

It being a meta pick is a problem for a small subset of the playerbase. I imagine it's much more important that you have sought after class fantasy locked behind a gameplay option, meaning you can't pick say, the Mage talent that gives you Kael'thas orbs while also having gameplay more reminiscent of the Frostfire tree.

It was similar with Covenants. Meta picks were one thing, by more important was not having an enjoyable ability because you really wanted the covenant aesthetic, or alternatively disliking your chosen covenant, but loving the ability.

[Echil46]

All it proves is that most people don't give a damn about class fantasy - or at least give more damns about numbers.
This is the game you play.

Why should my healer and my tank care about my class fantasy ? They shouldn't. But they invite me based on the numbers they're lead to believe i'll provide. Sure i'll play the non tree faerie spec of the warlock. But what good does it do me when that'll make me a pariah or at best, make me feel miserable about my spec ?
Sureyou can ignore the damage metters. But you can't make other players do the same.

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It being a meta pick is a problem for a small subset of the playerbase. I imagine it's much more important that you have sought after class fantasy locked behind a gameplay option, meaning you can't pick say, the Mage talent that gives you Kael'thas orbs while also having gameplay more reminiscent of the Frostfire tree.

It was similar with Covenants. Meta picks were one thing, by more important was not having an enjoyable ability because you really wanted the covenant aesthetic, or alternatively disliking your chosen covenant, but loving the ability.

I wanna play arms. I like arms as it is. I don't wanna go bladestorm, so no slayer. I don't like what colossus offers. Should i just roll over, accept the class fantasy of my class is suddenly gone, and reroll DK, Paladin, Monk or Survival ?

[Rageonit]

Why should my healer and my tank care about my class fantasy ? They shouldn't. But they invite me based on the numbers they're lead to believe i'll provide. Sure i'll play the non tree faerie spec of the warlock. But what good does it do me when that'll make me a pariah or at best, make me feel miserable about my spec ?
Sureyou can ignore the damage metters. But you can't make other players do the same.

Here's a story for you.
There was once a lock who wasn't a Night Fae. He signed up for a m+, they did it in time and nobody said shit.
THE END

That story is true in 99% of cases (if you know how to play your class).
And if you want to push to the extreme, you won't care about fantasy anyway, because every little detail of your spec is already predetermined.

[Villager720]

It being a meta pick is a problem for a small subset of the playerbase. I imagine it's much more important that you have sought after class fantasy locked behind a gameplay option, meaning you can't pick say, the Mage talent that gives you Kael'thas orbs while also having gameplay more reminiscent of the Frostfire tree.

It was similar with Covenants. Meta picks were one thing, by more important was not having an enjoyable ability because you really wanted the covenant aesthetic, or alternatively disliking your chosen covenant, but loving the ability.

Hey I'm not going to say I'm assuredly right - I could be wholly wrong and folks don't mind.
I'm just calling out what I see as the major "booboo" for TWW as we roll into Alpha. I hope I'm wrong, but looking at how SL Covenants went over, I'm fearful lots of folks will see the similarities and that'll be a negative against what looks to be a promising expansion.
And it feels like an easy fix to me; if Blizz just pulled out any "major class fantasy" aspects from the talents, and then overhauled the glyph system to add in said major fantasies, I think they'd dodge this problem.

[Ersula]

I wanna play arms. I like arms as it is. I don't wanna go bladestorm, so no slayer. I don't like what colossus offers. Should i just roll over, accept the class fantasy of my class is suddenly gone, and reroll DK, Paladin, Monk or Survival ?

Imagine saying "I don't want to use Mind Games or Holy word shield because it doesn't match my class fantasy" as a Priest. Get out of here.

I don't care about dark rangers personally, I'm just calling out how people will and are already feeling about it. Not agreeing with sentiment doesn't change sentiment.

Complaining about how they feel about gameplay they haven't played yet? Trash.

[Villager720]

Here's a story for you.
There was once a lock who wasn't a Night Fae. He signed up for a m+, they did it in time and nobody said shit.
THE END

That story is true in 99% of cases (if you know how to play your class).
And if you want to push to the extreme, you won't care about fantasy anyway, because every little detail of your spec is already predetermined.

Here's another story.
There once were thousands of warlocks who saw that they were the most useful to their groups if they went Night Fae, even though they wanted to be Venthyr. So they went Nght Fae and resented the main box feature of an expansion.
That story is also true.

[Lahis]

Rewards for the pre-event
https://www.wowhead.com/news/first-l...h-event-338812

are the argus "naaru" set recolrs as void versions
https://www.wowhead.com/news/new-dat...og-sets-337361

And the priest tier set is literally naaru inspired.
https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/upl...e633e15c7e.jpg

I'm calling it now again: The Radiant Song will be from a Naaru, not the world soul. A special Naaru. Either E'lune or An'she/Mu'sha. Could all be one and the same.

If there is one thing we can be thankful for SL for, it is that it finally put rest any bullshit theories that Elune is a Naaru.

[Makorus]

It's Shadowland convenants, lite.
Always dreamt of being a dark ranger?
Too bad. You're survival or Pack Leader is the best meta spec.
Always wanted to summon a pit lord, mr. warlock? Well that sucks, cause you have to be a weird Satyr-themed spec instead because it does more damage.

They should just have been talents, not class fantasies.
And while I'm not the first to have this take, it is clearly spreading as folks look over the trees and consider their implications.

As friggin GameSpot put it : "While it feels like Hero Talents aren't nearly as impactful as Covenants were in Shadowlands, and are thankfully free to change or swap between at any moment, it does feel like the idea is fundamentally flawed and that new talents and unique class fantasies should be two separate things for players to choose."

That whole argument makes no sense to me still and completely misses the point why covenants were bad.

Let's say you really wanna play Dark Ranger, but it is worse than Pack Leader. Outside of some extreme fringe cases, like early Heroic/Mythic raiding, you can still play it. And even if it is so bad in comparison (which it almost definitely wont be), you can do the group content as Pack Leader and then instantly change back for all the other content you wanna be a Dark Ranger for.

Like, this is literally not a new problem and is just an issue with any type of choice? I think Dimensional Rifts for Destro is one of the coolest spells in the game, yet for the majority of DF it was just terrible to a point where you didn't pick it. Evokers never picked Firestorm, even though it is such a cool ability.

Your Pit Lord argument LITERALLY is an argument against "they should have just been talents" because that's literally what happened with Nether Portals ??????

Any type of talent, unless it is a grey blob of nothing, is inherently in some type of fantasy.

The issue with Covenants was that you were unable to play what you want, when you could. I couldn't play Necrolord Arcane Mage for open world and maybe LFR and Normal, and then switch to Kyrian Arcane for my main raids.

[Villager720]

Complaining about how they feel about gameplay they haven't played yet? Trash.

I feel like you missed the forest for the trees here.
The issue isn't the talent tree mechanics, its the heavy layering of fantasy in the trees alongside the mechanical aspect.
I don't need to know how Evokers play mechanically to say "oh I want to be the dragon person".

[Ersula]

Here's another story.
There once were thousands of warlocks who saw that they were the most useful to their groups if they went Night Fae, even though they wanted to be Venthyr. So they went Nght Fae and resented the main box feature of an expansion.
That story is also true.

Except that situation won't happen, because you aren't locked into Hero talents the way you were in covenants. You can change them on the fly. We've covered this already.

I don't need to know how Evokers play mechanically to say "oh I want to be the dragon person".

Just like how you aren't locked into a hero tree when you create your character, nor even when choosing a spec. These are not real issues.

[Enrif]

If there is one thing we can be thankful for SL for, it is that it finally put rest any bullshit theories that Elune is a Naaru.

did it though? Elune could be anything. Being related to the Winter Queen, doesn't disqualify her from being a naaru.

[Rageonit]

Here's another story.
There once were thousands of warlocks who saw that they were the most useful to their groups if they went night fae, even though they wanted to be Venthyr. So they went night fae and resented the main box feature of an expansion.
That story is also true.

Players change specs to be most useful. Heck, players often reroll classes to be most useful. What's new?
This is not bad design. This is a mindset. If you do that against your own desires... Don't?

[Villager720]

Your Pit Lord argument LITERALLY mirrors the argument against "they should have just been talents" because that's literally what happened with Nether Portals ??????.

When I say "they should just have been talents" I don't mean the spells, which are talents.
I mean the "hero talents" shouldn't have the big class fantasty vibes baked in.

[Makorus]

When I say "they should just have been talents" I don't mean the spells, which are talents.
I mean the "hero talents" shouldn't have the big class fantasty vibes baked in.

So not being able to pick a talent that summons a pit lord when its a normal talent = good

Not being able to pick a talent that summons a pit lord when its a hero talent = bad

Gotcha.

[Villager720]

Except that situation won't happen, because you aren't locked into Hero talents the way you were in covenants. You can change them on the fly. We've covered this already.

And again, if you're affliction and you love affliction, and you wanted to summon a pitlord?
What then?
This is the main point I'm trying to make. The system locks asked for class-fantasies behind gameplay mechanics.

[Lahis]

did it though? Elune could be anything. Being related to the Winter Queen, doesn't disqualify her from being a naaru.

Elune is god tied to life plane.

Naaru are the titan keepers for Light.

Different domains an power levels.

[Ersula]

And again, if you're affliction and you love affliction, and you wanted to summon a pitlord?
What then?
This is the main point I'm trying to make. The system locks asked for class-fantasies behind gameplay mechanics.

You were never gonna be able to summon a pitlord as affliction. They're totally different "fantacies" but a warlock player will still be able to do both by the flip a a switch... the "change spec" button.

[Echil46]

Here's a story for you.
There was once a lock who wasn't a Night Fae. He signed up for a m+, they did it in time and nobody said shit.
THE END

That story is true in 99% of cases (if you know how to play your class).
And if you want to push to the extreme, you won't care about fantasy anyway, because every little detail of your spec is already predetermined.

I don't recall using any condescending tone in whaterver i said. I'm sharing, and discussing. Now if you're not open to discussion and wanna just say "there it is, the end, discussion is over" then so be it. I mean, i think you're wrong to assume it doesn't matter just because you havn't encountered it much. I disagree, and that's fine if we have different opinions. Just don't go all "that's what it is, discussion over, and anyway, if i'm wrong that's because you can't play your class".

I think it's wishful thinking to say meta doesn't matter, quite the opposite. From the hundred apply you get when you create a group in M+, you will pick those you think are better, or fit better. And meta play its role in it.

[Makorus]

And again, if you're affliction and you love affliction, and you wanted to summon a pitlord?
What then?
This is the main point I'm trying to make. The system locks asked for class-fantasies behind gameplay mechanics.

I don't know if you think you have a point, because you don't?

There was no reality where they would add a talent to let you summon a Pitlord as Aff, and Hero Talents existing didn't really stop that from happening either.

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I don't recall using any condescending tone in whaterver i said. I'm sharing, and discussing. Now if you're not open to discussion and wanna just say "there it is, the end, discussion is over" then so be it. I mean, i think you're wrong to assume it doesn't matter just because you havn't encountered it much. I disagree, and that's fine if we have different opinions. Just don't go all "that's what it is, discussion over, and anyway, if i'm wrong that's because you can't play your class".

I think it's wishful thinking to say meta doesn't matter, quite the opposite. From the hundred apply you get when you create a group in M+, you will pick those you think are better, or fit better. And meta play its role in it.

Sure, but Meta doesn't really apply to the key levels of the majority of the people who are complaining right now.
And for the people where it does matter, they've already come to terms with the fact that you can't use all the talents you want to use, sadly.
People here are acting like you are gonna get kicked out of LFR or a Heroic Dungeon for picking the option thats 0.5% worse lmao

[Villager720]

So not being able to pick a talent that summons a pit lord when its a normal talent = good

Not being able to pick a talent that summons a pit lord when its a hero talent = bad

Gotcha.

Perhaps the pit lord talent analogy wasn't the best; so, fair.
What I've been trying to note though is that many hero talents prevent full classes from having access to asked for class fantasies and potentially make players feel "forced" into a fantasy they don't gel with for the meta.
We can argue in circles about the nuances of "but other existing talents work similarly", but those are just one spell or talent at the end of the day.

These new Hero Specs are labeled "Far Seer", "Dark Ranger", "San'layn" and are being sold to players as "play these heroes!". My concern is that players won't get what they wanted (for the myriad of reasons I've now noted previously) and it'll be a drag on expansion morale.

Maybe I'm wrong. Guess we'll have to see.
But look at the chatter around hero talents thus far, and it hasn't been awesome. I recall similar concerns about Covenants and those concerns being disregarded and labeled "doom-saying" or from "the complainer class of players".
I hope we're wrong this time.