The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

WoD is the usual king of this, but honestly my favorite example will always be the end of Sunwell Plateau which is completely incomprehensible gobbleygook unless you read all of the (bad) tie-in manga.

And if you did read that manga, you'd ask how Dar'khan was alive.

What I wonder is, why was that not the leveling campaign for Blood Elves and it became a manga instead.

These days the Warcraft tie-in novels might have some information but at most they would end up a single storyline with a scenario at the end if implemented in game. Early on you had tie-ins that could have been entire expansions. I mean combine Cataclysm with the Me'dan comic and the Night of the Dragon to Wolfheart novels and instead of a three tier expansion you easily get two four tier expansions.

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I know we're going to "banish the darkness forever" in Midnight but I wish it wasn't true.

It's like that pirates of the caribbean quote "the world [of warcraft]'s still the same ... there's just less in it."

Banish it forever means that we remove the Void forces already in Azeroth.

New ones can arrive down the line.

[Raetary]

I know we're going to "banish the darkness forever" in Midnight but I wish it wasn't true.

It's like that pirates of the caribbean quote "the world [of warcraft]'s still the same ... there's just less in it."

It's just dramatic marketing.
Blizzard isn't gonna fully remove themes that they can build content around.

Narratively "banish the darkness forever" just means "local void threats will be dealt with".

[Xilurm]

We split the vote (Eonar, Aggramar on our side, Norgannon, Aman'thul wanting to wipe us, Khaz abstaining), Aman'thul decides to let Sargeras get a vote and at the end of the mess we have killed Aman'thul, Norgannon leaves for Order planning revenge, Sargeras is off to create a new plan for ominicide and we have Eonar, Aggramar and Khaz'goroth on our side.

I'm sorry but I actually laughed out loud irl at the bolded part.

Anyway I don't think Aman'thul (atleast I hope not) is that evil. If he lets even the biggest villain in the universe gets a vote, but then proceeds to act out anyway so we have to fight him.

If anything, Aman'thul is the one I hope most doesn't go bad.

[Nymrohd]

I'm sorry but I actually laughed out loud irl at the bolded part.

Anyway I don't think Aman'thul (atleast I hope not) is that evil. If he lets even the biggest villain in the universe gets a vote, but then proceeds to act out anyway so we have to fight him.

If anything, Aman'thul is the one I hope most doesn't go bad.

Aman'thul seems to me like the most devoted to Order next to Norgannon. Eonar has strong connections to Life and Aggramar to Light (or at least his favored keeper did), Khaz'goroth seems focused on creating things and Golganneth seems like the group chad (which is why I assume he dies first, he will also be the easiest one to make likeable during the leveling campaign and all so bigger impact when Iridikron kills him).

And Sargeras is ultimately part of the Pantheon. They are creatures of Order, they might have their bylaws were he still gets a vote. And I don't think that would make Aman'thul evil; he wouldn't be releasing Sargeras, just letting him cast a vote while imprisoned. It just would all got to hell from there.

Alternatively what if it is US who remind them that Sargeras has to get a vote? On this version, Aman'thul gets a majority for wiping us out with only Eonar and Aggramar opposing and we then force them to let Sargeras to vote to win time or for whatever reason. Player doing something stupid to the detriment of the multiverse would be par for the course at this point.

[huth]

Maybe a bit of an extreme example, but there's no denying that Argus is loosely a "twist," especially in the vein of saying the World Soul being something other than what literally every single piece of information, including subtitles and the actual zone summaries, is saying.

Not even losely. Argus' story has no twists. It's straightforward. It has some surprises, but nothing that goes against prior expectations.

And some seem to have forgotten that taking out Argus is basically the whole point of the Antorus raid from the beginning. That's why we even went there in the first place. The twist is us encountering the Pantheon and rescuing them, not Argus.

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I'm sorry but I actually laughed out loud irl at the bolded part.

Anyway I don't think Aman'thul (atleast I hope not) is that evil. If he lets even the biggest villain in the universe gets a vote, but then proceeds to act out anyway so we have to fight him.

If anything, Aman'thul is the one I hope most doesn't go bad.

I don't think any of them are evil. They just aren't aligned with mortal sense of morality.

[Nymrohd]

Not even losely. Argus' story has no twists. It's straightforward. It has some surprises, but nothing that goes against prior expectations.

And some seem to have forgotten that taking out Argus is basically the whole point of the Antorus raid from the beginning. That's why we even went there in the first place. The twist is us encountering the Pantheon and rescuing them, not Argus.

Pretty much. We find out that Argus is how the Legion became infinitely respawning in the prequests and in Alleria's audio story.

[THEORACLE64]

You are obviously wrong. Just let me post something like that:

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=htt...0pwhwm0v41.png

Guess we work with Denthrius against people like Dreven and the Accuser. Guess what, didn't happend. The log is always only showing the knowledge your character knows at the moment. There is no "third person omniscient". It is always in person view.

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They are not. You conflate your experience doing it back then, with what you knew after the fact.

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glad to entertain you. But i don't get what you get from your glee and vitriol.

It's just interesting to see what you come up with when you're staring facts in the face about how absolutely wrong you are.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I wonder if TWW ends with us actually losing, hence why the Void is able to engage in a full scale invasion of Azeroth.

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Pretty much. We find out that Argus is how the Legion became infinitely respawning in the prequests and in Alleria's audio story.

Brings me to a question: if Argus was speeding up the revival process of demons, what is the normal/usual length of time for demons to regenerate in the Twisting Nether?

I don't think that was ever established, and I'm sure as of now people really don't care, but always wondered.

[Nymrohd]

I wonder if TWW ends with us actually losing, hence why the Void is able to engage in a full scale invasion of Azeroth.

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Brings me to a question: if Argus was speeding up the revival process of demons, what is the normal/usual length of time for demons to regenerate in the Twisting Nether?

I don't think that was ever established, and I'm sure as of now people really don't care, but always wondered.

I would assume so. We win the battle but lose the war leading to Midnight makes sense to me.

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Brings me to a question: if Argus was speeding up the revival process of demons, what is the normal/usual length of time for demons to regenerate in the Twisting Nether?

I don't think that was ever established, and I'm sure as of now people really don't care, but always wondered.

We know they naturally achieve it regardless which is why Sargeras created Mardum. But I think it's not just that they get regen faster but I think they could actually pick who regens.

[Vakir]

Not even losely. Argus' story has no twists. It's straightforward. It has some surprises, but nothing that goes against prior expectations.

And some seem to have forgotten that taking out Argus is basically the whole point of the Antorus raid from the beginning. That's why we even went there in the first place. The twist is us encountering the Pantheon and rescuing them, not Argus.

The presence of a world soul and Sargeras utilizing one is such a hard left relative to the rest of the expansion, especially given it contradicts what we were told surrounding his motivations in Chronicle Vol. 1, even before they established it as a Watsonian text.

I'll grant you, twist is probably the wrong term, but I'd argue it wasn't foreshadowed in any capacity prior to 7.3. Argus itself as a location obviously was.

That being said, the start of the conversation was to establish Blizzard doesn't generally drop a lot of twists in WoW and typically doesn't alter things like UI or subtitle information we're given as a deliberate lie, and either way that's one less in the bucket.

[Santandame]

Argus, the headquarters of BL, was the last minute addition in expansion that was meant to finally deal with BL?

Yes, it was. The original plan for patch content was going to be Suramar - Thal’Dranath - Broken Shore.

Thal’Dranath was announced at launch as an island to the south of the Broken Isles at launch that would be visited as patch content.

Prior to Blizzcon, Thal’Dranath was scrapped with Blizzard stating that we were already visiting too many Elven ruins themed islands, so they were replacing Thal’Dranath with something in their words were to be “much cooler”.

At Blizzcon, it was announced we would be visiting Argus in the final patch. Thal’Dranath was then amalgamated into the Broken Shore instead, with Thal’Dranath being changed to be the Broken Shore’s actual name.

[Vakir]

At Blizzcon, it was announced we would be visiting Argus in the final patch. Thal’Dranath was then amalgamated into the Broken Shore instead, with Thal’Dranath being changed to be the Broken Shore’s actual name.

Yup. This kinda fits with the idea that we get insta-gibbed by what's implied to be Sargeras' presence in the opening scenario if you get too close to the Tomb entrance, despite there being no such threat even before we seal it in the raid. Yeah, some of that is to make in-universe concrete the idea of things being off limits, but the flavor text is very ominous. The Tomb rift was hyped to hell in contrast to what it ended up ultimately being.

It was probably the right call, ultimately, even though I don't think anyone would call the Broken Shore in its incarnation as a second zone particularly great, what with the scrapped class hall world quests and the like. But it is certainly much cooler than having to go through more elven ruins.

This is further supported by the scrapped Legion themed dungeon that sure looks like it could have been the original Argus plan.

[Nymrohd]

Yup. This kinda fits with the idea that we get insta-gibbed by what's implied to be Sargeras' presence in the opening scenario if you get too close to the Tomb entrance, despite there being no such threat even before we seal it in the raid. Yeah, some of that is to make in-universe concrete the idea of things being off limits, but the flavor text is very ominous. The Tomb rift was hyped to hell in contrast to what it ended up ultimately being.

It was probably the right call, ultimately, even though I don't think anyone would call the Broken Shore in its incarnation as a second zone particularly great, what with the scrapped class hall world quests and the like. But it is certainly much cooler than having to go through more elven ruins.

This is further supported by the scrapped Legion themed dungeon that sure looks like it could have been the original Argus plan.

Tbh having the Avatar of Sargeras be the final boss of Legion and then following it up with an Argus expac would work. Light knows Avatar was hard enough to be an expansion endboss.

Also every time someone posts a Hayven video I get so sad One of the best WoW content creators. No drama, no clickbait, just great videos with proper editing.

[Lady Atia]

Tbh having the Avatar of Sargeras be the final boss of Legion and then following it up with an Argus expac would work. Light knows Avatar was hard enough to be an expansion endboss.

I think that may have been the original plan if WoD worked out - they initially stated they want to do shorter expansions back than, and WoD-Legion-Argus would have made a great saga trilogy, ngl. But WoD's big problems - content draught, only 2 raid tiers aswell as "orc fatigue" basically killed the idea of short expansions with a similiar theme back than. Fun to think that's exactly what we will get with WSS - shorter expansions and void in atleast 2 out of 3 of them.

[Vakir]

Tbh having the Avatar of Sargeras be the final boss of Legion and then following it up with an Argus expac would work. Light knows Avatar was hard enough to be an expansion endboss.

Tomb of Soakgeras was a nightmare.

That being said, it looks like it was intended from that for Argus to just be a dungeon and raid based on that datamining...? With the Tomb itself being a portal from Argus proper rather than what it eventually was, which explains why the vanguard poured directly from it...? Hard to say. All speculation.

[Houle]

True but I always try to think of how someone would see things in game if they had not seen any supplementary material.
Like imagine playing Legion but with no knowledge of the Chronicle (which it effectively retconned which is hilarious in retrospect)

The fact that Chronicles released a few months before Legion, and that they couldnt even keep it consistent with that one expansion, is still so fckn funny.

"HERES OUR DEFINITIVE LORE GUIDE.....wait, we need to end the current xpac somehow....IGNORE THAT SHIT IMMEDIATELY"

[Vakir]

The fact that Chronicles released a few months before Legion, and that they couldnt even keep it consistent with that one expansion, is still so fckn funny.

"HERES OUR DEFINITIVE LORE GUIDE.....wait, we need to end the current xpac somehow....IGNORE THAT SHIT IMMEDIATELY"

"...also it's the Titans' perspective."
"But this has things that don't work with what the Titans would know and believe. And also it says the world of Warcraft in the first chap---"
"TITANS'. PERSPECTIVE."

[Nymrohd]

Tomb of Soakgeras was a nightmare.

That being said, it looks like it was intended from that for Argus to just be a dungeon and raid based on that datamining...? With the Tomb itself being a portal from Argus proper rather than what it eventually was, which explains why the vanguard poured directly from it...? Hard to say. All speculation.

I just think you could have done Argus plus some single zones in different Legion planets and have a very meaty expac.

[Vakir]

I just think you could have done Argus plus some single zones in different Legion planets and have a very meaty expac.

I agree, feels like a missed opportunity on the whole. At the very least, I believe that 7.3 is the biggest patch we've had to date, but I could easily be wrong.

[Nymrohd]

I agree, feels like a missed opportunity on the whole. At the very least, I believe that 7.3 is the biggest patch we've had to date, but I could easily be wrong.

It did feel massive and I personally enjoyed it a ton (Antoran Wastes with a strong character gave amazing Demonslayer power fantasy.)