The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Santandame]

Broken Shore replaced Thal'dranath. It was originally just meant to be the initial opening sequence for Legion. I don't disagree that Argus was not the original plan, but what it replaced is less clear and may be wholly unknown to us.

It should also be noted that this is not in any way special. Blizzard does such changes all the time.

Do you have a source or is it just your own belief; if so, any evidence to suggest that’s what it replaced?

Their own verbiage for the replacement of Thal’Dranath was something “different and much cooler”. Considering Broken Shore was always intended to be content, as was the Tomb of Sargeras (unless you’re implying the Tomb raid would have played into Thal’Dranath), then the only other possible replacement could have been Argus.

Broken Shore isn’t something that screams to mind as being “much cooler” than another Aszuna or Suramar styled zone. Especially so considering it was in at launch and we already knew the layout etc. Three new zones, one being Eredath, as well as heading to the headquarters of the Burning Legion is however something many would consider to be much cooler than another elven zone.

There’s no reason to assume that we wouldn’t be returning to the Broken Shore and the Tomb of Sargeras.

The fact of the matter is you don’t know what Thal’Dranath was replaced by, and neither do I. Because Blizzard have never made an official statement clearing it up. We can begin to make educated guesses based off the evidence we do have and the evidence points towards it being replaced by Argus.

The Broken Shore’s lore name being Thal’Dranath is also irrelevant. Because at the time of concept, both were seperate locations. They just decided to use the name of Thal’Dranath as the original elvish name for the Broken Shore just to keep some cohesion.

[Makorus]

Most of what they said was assumptions and their own belief but anyone with half a brain cell could work out that the original plan for Legion did not include Argus or Antorus, and at some point prior to release that changed. It’s never been outright confirmed from a Blizz rep that “Argus replaces Thal’Dranath” but it was pretty much spelled out to us.

Based off how things were projected to us during Legion’s development, the patch plan seemed to be: launch - Nighthold - Thal’Dranath - Broken Shore + Tomb. At some point prior to release Blizzard had the idea to go with something different and “much cooler” than Thal’Dranath. Considering Broken Shore + Tomb was always intended to be patch content in the game, same with the Nighthold, then the only possible replacement for Thal’Dranath could have been Argus.

As for the Sylvanas stuff, I’ve never heard anything like that so can’t comment.

If I had to make a guess for what Thal’Dranath was going to be - then an educated one would have been Naga related. We know it was primarily Elven ruins. We got a lot of Naga + Azshara content during levelling as well as the Fathom Dweller secret chain. I can only assume it would have been a mix of the continuation of Azsuna’s storyline involving Azshara, Farondis, the sea giants etc as well as some Old God shenanigans as hinted by Drak’thul as well as possibly playing into Azshara x Sargeras. I imagine the Naga content we got in Tomb was originally planned for Thal’Dranath too.

I mean, yeah, they said Thaldranath was removed to add something much cooler, and the only need new zones we got in Legion were the Broken Shores, which isn't even a new zone, and also not "much cooler", and Argus, implying at least three-zone Argus wasn't planned, or it was way smaller.

The issue is when you start putting "there are just too many things that coincide with leaks that spelled out the original plan for legion" in your post, but you conveniently can't list anything and then make up things in the same breath.

My theory? Argus was always gonna appear, but it was literally just gonna be one zone and Antorus.

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Broken Shore replaced Thal'dranath. It was originally just meant to be the initial opening sequence for Legion. I don't disagree that Argus was not the original plan, but what it replaced is less clear and may be wholly unknown to us.

It should also be noted that this is not in any way special. Blizzard does such changes all the time.

?????? the Broken Shore literally had the Tomb of Sargeras, which was the portal for the Legion invasion in the first place.

In what world are they gonna make a zone for a 20 minute scenario and just scrap it?

[Santandame]

I mean, yeah, they said Thaldranath was removed to add something much cooler, and the only need new zones we got in Legion were the Broken Shores, which isn't even a new zone, and also not "much cooler", and Argus, implying at least three-zone Argus wasn't planned, or it was way smaller.

The issue is when you start putting "there are just too many things that coincide with leaks that spelled out the original plan for legion" in your post, but you conveniently can't list anything and then make up things in the same breath.

My theory? Argus was always gonna appear, but it was literally just gonna be one zone and Antorus.

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?????? the Broken Shore literally had the Tomb of Sargeras, which was the portal for the Legion invasion in the first place.

In what world are they gonna make a zone for a 20 minute scenario and just scrap it?

I think you’re confusing me with someone else. I’ve not mentioned anything about original leaks for Legion, so I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make there.

I’m saying that all evidence points towards Argus replacing Thal’Dranath based off comments from Blizzard, how the story was being built, and just general common sense.

As for the last bit in terms of what Thal’Dranath could have been, that was me just throwing out ideas of what I could have seen it being based on what else we got during that expansion.

[Makorus]

I think you’re confusing me with someone else. I’ve not mentioned anything about original leaks for Legion, so I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make there.

I’m saying that all evidence points towards Argus replacing Thal’Dranath based off comments from Blizzard, how the story was being built, and just general common sense.

As for the last bit in terms of what Thal’Dranath could have been, that was me just throwing out ideas of what I could have seen it being based on what else we got during that expansion.

Sorry, I thought you were getting at me for calling out Foolicious on his headcanon.

[Santandame]

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?????? the Broken Shore literally had the Tomb of Sargeras, which was the portal for the Legion invasion in the first place.

In what world are they gonna make a zone for a 20 minute scenario and just scrap it?

With unique architecture too such as the Tomb itself. There’s zero reason to believe we wouldn’t have revisited either.

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Sorry, I thought you were getting at me for calling out Foolicious on his headcanon.

No worries, I wasn’t doing that.

I agree with your point that it’s possible Argus was always going to be seen but it was expanded to more zones when we lost Thal’Dranath.

Eredath for example definitely felt very late in development in terms of being thrown in. It felt like a complete different story to the rest of the Legion storyline. The colour schemes of Eredath may have well been what was originally planned for Thal’Dranath too.

Either way, if Argus was planned or not; I think it’s fair to say Blizz would have felt players would have complained if it was say for example, just the Antoran Wastes. Maybe Eredath was their something “much cooler”?

It’s something I hope they clarify one day but I doubt it.

[huth]

With unique architecture too such as the Tomb itself.

And that's it. The rest is a rather barren island. Tomb was always going to be a raid, but Broken Shore was not originally intended to be a zone.

[Ersula]

And that's it. The rest is a rather barren island. Tomb was always going to be a raid, but Broken Shore was not originally intended to be a zone.

I think it makes more logical sense that the Broken Shore was always going to be the patch zone paired with the Tomb Raid. They already admitted thal dranath was supposed to be where the intro scenario was set & the same pre-alpha map that shows that island also placed Tomb on the landmass between dranath & suramar.

Clearly what happened is they realized the Intro scenario zone & Broken shore didn't need to be two separate zones.

I think they chose to go to argus when they were struggling to make a *third* highborne raid location where players would fight the Avatar of Sargeras & simply moved that fight to the end of Tomb.

[Santandame]

And that's it. The rest is a rather barren island. Tomb was always going to be a raid, but Broken Shore was not originally intended to be a zone.

Okay, and again - your source? If it’s an educated guess, where’s your evidence to suggest that it wasn’t intended to be a zone?

Let’s look at all other introductory zones to an expansion.

Tanaan Jungle - we later get it as a zone.
The Maw - we also later get it as a zone.
The Forbidden Reach - not quite the same as the previous two but still an introductory zone to the storyline of Dragonflight and the Dragon Isles. Later used as a zone for all other non Dracthyr races.

It’s highly doubtful that Blizzard would go to the effort to create a zone to not be used at all again barring the introduction to the expansion. Especially when it’s housing what would undoubtedly become a raid, and not just a raid, but one of the must iconic lore areas in Warcraft.

Why in your mind, was Broken Shore not intended to be a zone?

Because right now, there’s no evidence to suggest that. You just repeating something over and over doesn’t make it true, even if you do believe it yourself.

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I think it makes more logical sense that the Broken Shore was always going to be the patch zone paired with the Tomb Raid. They already admitted thal dranath was supposed to be where the intro scenario was set & the same pre-alpha map that shows that island also placed Tomb on the landmass between dranath & suramar.

Clearly what happened is they realized the Intro scenario zone & Broken shore didn't need to be two separate zones.

I think they chose to go to argus when they were struggling to make a *third* highborne raid location where players would fight the Avatar of Sargeras & simply moved that fight to the end of Tomb.

Why would we fight the Avatar of Sargeras at another location than the tomb that it’s literally buried at and named after? It’s far more likely that at the time the final raid of the expansion was Tomb of Sargeras with both the Avatar and Kil’Jaeden remaining the final two bosses. It’s far more likely that Thal’Dranath would have been the usual “filler” raid that we previously used to get in the expansions prior to Legion. Naga themed is a strong possibility.

[Khaza-R]

Have we heard yet if we are getting shorts with TWW?

The DF ones were kind of lame but I have hope they can pick it back up again with the WSS

[huth]

Okay, and again - your source? If it’s an educated guess, where’s your evidence to suggest that it wasn’t intended to be a zone?

Let’s look at all other introductory zones to an expansion.

Tanaan Jungle - we later get it as a zone.
The Maw - we also later get it as a zone.
The Forbidden Reach - not quite the same as the previous two but still an introductory zone to the storyline of Dragonflight and the Dragon Isles. Later used as a zone for all other non Dracthyr races.

All of which are also vastly more developed than Broken Shore, which had no unique features except the Tomb. Everything else was assets that where used all over the expansion. If anything, that lends more credence to the idea that it was quickly thrown together.

Not sure where Ersula has that idea that Thal'dranath was supposed to be the intro, either, but then again it's Ersula. And that landmass between Suramar and Thal'dranath? Well, guess where Broken Shore is.

[Ersula]

Why would we fight the Avatar of Sargeras at another location than the tomb that it’s literally buried at and named after? It’s far more likely that at the time the final raid of the expansion was Tomb of Sargeras with both the Avatar and Kil’Jaeden remaining the final two bosses. It’s far more likely that Thal’Dranath would have been the usual “filler” raid that we previously used to get in the expansions prior to Legion. Naga themed is a strong possibility.

For the same reason we didn't fight the jailer in the maw raid, and we didn't fight N'zoth in his Nazjatar prison. Presumably he would escape at the end of that raid.

[Dracullus]

i don't see why argus or antorus wouldn't have been part of the original plan for legion

I vaguely remember they were talking about yearly expansion before WoD and then how it's impossible before Legion cause some parts of expac production must go through a bottleneck.

Personally I have theory that WoD was supposed to last a year (which would make just 1 big patch viable) and first draft of Legion was just launch + big Tomb of Sargeras patch with bigger zone (Thal'Dranath), then Argus expansion (again, just with launch + Legion HQ patch).

But I'm glad shorter expac never become a thing. Even now, after Metzen comment about saga expacs coming "little bit faster", they later said to expect saga end before 2030.

Have we heard yet if we are getting shorts with TWW?

The DF ones were kind of lame but I have hope they can pick it back up again with the WSS

Reveal of them could come as late as August, at this point it's something we have every expac since WoD pre-patch (+ shaohao during MoP).

[Lahis]

Have we heard yet if we are getting shorts with TWW?

The DF ones were kind of lame but I have hope they can pick it back up again with the WSS

IIRC there has been datamined strings referencing 2D cinematics in the game (in addition to in-engine cutscenes and rendered cinematics), which would mean there should be the traditional round of 2D-painterly shorts coming for TWW.

[Civciv]

I liked DF ones tbh

[Scyth]

We are most definitely going to get at least three (Alleria, Anduin and Thrall) imo. I really hope Xal gets one though.

[allegrian]

I've played through 3 full pandaria zones and man, the story and even gameplay is so much better than DF leveling, it's like night and day. The world building in pandaria is top notch, and the story flows and connects each zones in a logical way, as well as having story threads that are introduced and keep moving like anduin, the sha, mogu, the insect invasion... And it's all written in a way that new players could understand most of what's happening.

DF on the other hand has us meet different shamanistic copycat races in each zone that are forgotten once you leave and make us look for macguffins that are dropped and forgotten before the first raid. The fountain of youth questline in pandaria is better than anything in DF and let's not even talk about big set pieces like the dragon statue or the giant insect destroying the wall in pandaria as the climax of 2 zones.

I really hope TWW and midnight are closer to pandaria leveling...

[Darkarath]

I've played through 3 full pandaria zones and man, the story and even gameplay is so much better than DF leveling, it's like night and day. The world building in pandaria is top notch, and the story flows and connects each zones in a logical way, as well as having story threads that are introduced and keep moving like anduin, the sha, mogu, the insect invasion... And it's all written in a way that new players could understand most of what's happening.

DF on the other hand has us meet different shamanistic copycat races in each zone that are forgotten once you leave and make us look for macguffins that are dropped and forgotten before the first raid. The fountain of youth questline in pandaria is better than anything in DF and let's not even talk about big set pieces like the dragon statue or the giant insect destroying the wall in pandaria as the climax of 2 zones.

I really hope TWW and midnight are closer to pandaria leveling...

I have to agree, I did not remember MoP questing and worldbuilding to be this good. The lore was really interesting back then. Everything related to the Mantid is top-notch IMO.

I still think that WoD was better in terms of questing and especially in the world itself. Draenor is still the best continent. Pandaria as a continent is good, it is what it should be, but it is just not as spectacular as Draenor (personal taste, of course).

I believe that it would be difficult for Blizzard to make an expansion so important, expanding and mysterious as MoP lore-wise. Especially because back then we did not have the Chronicles books, which took out much of the magic of the Warcraft's universe, even if at the time the first Chronicle book was cool.

[Xilurm]

But I'm glad shorter expac never become a thing. Even now, after Metzen comment about saga expacs coming "little bit faster", they later said to expect saga end before 2030.

Honestly a lot of people think that when Blizzard says "shorter expansions", they mean a year long expansion and a new one instantly after that. Not to mention the whole discourse about paying for glorified patches.

But what they're actually talking about is the long drought that follows the end of an expansion, which usually lasts almost a year by itself. That's still part of an expansion, and that's the thing they want to shorten.

Even now, we're in the drought period. The last proper patch came out and now we're just waiting for the TWW pre-patch. If TWW comes out this summer I say they've achieved the shorter expansion thing they want to do. If we're getting a patch every 2 months, a 4 month period between the end of an expansion and the start of a new one doesn't seem too long.

[Lady Atia]

I've played through 3 full pandaria zones and man, the story and even gameplay is so much better than DF leveling, it's like night and day. The world building in pandaria is top notch, and the story flows and connects each zones in a logical way, as well as having story threads that are introduced and keep moving like anduin, the sha, mogu, the insect invasion... And it's all written in a way that new players could understand most of what's happening.

DF on the other hand has us meet different shamanistic copycat races in each zone that are forgotten once you leave and make us look for macguffins that are dropped and forgotten before the first raid. The fountain of youth questline in pandaria is better than anything in DF and let's not even talk about big set pieces like the dragon statue or the giant insect destroying the wall in pandaria as the climax of 2 zones.

I really hope TWW and midnight are closer to pandaria leveling...

Yeah idk, some stuff didn't really age well in MoP tbh. Stuff like the nesingwary quests were you literally kill baby animals for fun or even the questline were you attack that poor giant squid should never return. The intro was also quite .... cruel, especially for the alliance.

[Lahis]

We are most definitely going to get at least three (Alleria, Anduin and Thrall) imo. I really hope Xal gets one though.

I think the text descriptions for the one that plays ingame said it was about Earthen history in Khaz Algar.

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The intro was also quite .... cruel, especially for the alliance.

That is the point. Both sides go full warcrime mode on landfall and that is what awakens the Sha across the continent in strength never seen before.