The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Vakir]

Theme and aesthetics matter more than reality. Always have, always will.

Pretty much. You're still seeing a human and void elf front and center. The opening cinematic is still Thrall as emotional support accessory to a human. You're still leaning on Dwarf aesthetic and theming which still more invokes feelings of the Alliance.

But we're getting (now apparently castrated) goblin stuff, so that's something, even though they will inevitably be "soft-neutral."

Thrall in Cataclysm helped to bring the Goblin into the Horde. The Goblin, recruited by Thrall into the Horde, then helped make war machines for the Horde war effort and nuke Theramore.

Doesn't sound like a neutral guy to me.

But that's the thing - the satisfaction or lack of it lies in how you perceived it. Not what was intended or how the team looked at it.

So on the flip side, you saying "X is really neutral" doesn't necessarily work as much of a successful argument on the other side even if it's accurate on paper.

[milkmustache]

A return to neutral named factions as the "raid plot" focuses as in Classic with smaller skirmishes heavily rooted in specific faction characters (like Alterac Valley, or Genn vs. Sylvanas in Legion) feels like a better way to avoid all of this.

100% completely agree. It also will give reason for the various councils (like the Horde). Struggle to reel in some of the more rebellious parts of the factions, or failing to smooth over old blood rivalrys allows for the world to feel more tension and characters to develop more personality.

All in against big bad XYZ is okay.

All divided on how to handle little group Y skirmishing with little group Z is also okay.

Both allow the world to feel like more than a single track amusement ride.

[Pyrophax]

Thrall in Cataclysm helped to bring the Goblin into the Horde. The Goblin, recruited by Thrall into the Horde, then helped make war machines for the Horde war effort and nuke Theramore.

Doesn't sound like a neutral guy to me.

Alleria made Void Elves as different tribe of elves. That elves are Alliance - so she "doesn't sound like a neutral gal to me".
So your bias again is fruitless, move along.

[Merryck]

When will void elves get to have those cool runic tattoos

Damn I sound like an NPC

[Varodoc]

I can't wait for 11.1 to be revealed and it's just a retread of Cataclysm where you have to help Thrall reconnect with his fractured elements or whatever.

The setting might have changed over the years, but the writing team's boner for Thrall hasn't.

I only hope that the few Alliance characters left in this story are given some scrap of material to work with, instead of being outright ignored like in Cataclysm.

[Nymrohd]

But we're getting (now apparently castrated) goblin stuff, so that's something, even though they will inevitably be "soft-neutral."

Is it so bad if we have goblin steampunk but without refuse and oil slicks everywhere?

[Reive]

unpopular opinion but the interesting side of the horde died with garrosh and sylvanas. the horde characters left are lame

[Pyrophax]

On short story - its too much of socialism here to me.
But one thing that annoying me is strange fact that somehow Monte Gazlowe represent ALL goblins in Horde Counsil, not single Biglewater cartel. What changed by now, why Noggy even listen to him? They are from different companies, they have different rulers, why?

And rebuilded Orgrimmar after Garrosh? Like its a first mention that Orgrimmar was rebuilded after MoP?

[Merryck]

I'm skipping the goblin patch. I can't stand that aesthetic, and it would be such a waste if 1 of our 3 raids was goblin themed. Yikes.

[milkmustache]

These aren't mutually exclusive but so many people on this forum bang on about bad writing and when you finally get objectively good writing, suddenly it's bad because it didn't go in the direction you want. It's really hard to believe or take people seriously when they act like they couldn't tell if a story was good or not if it hit them in the face. Not all goblins need to be bad stereotypes that are one note. That's objectively bad writing. We need the idea that fantasy races are ALL one way to die in a fire because it's shit. Especially races that are prolific and live in multiple places. One of the biggest fumbles in all of Warcraft is that all of their different races are archetyped so a shift seems out of character. For example: I love mana addict blood elves, but that's gone. But I'm not really fond of super pious sun elves either. It should be a healthy mix. But almost all of WoW is written like this. It needs to end. And if it starts with Gazlowe? Even better.

This is a great point. Looking at the mana addict blood elves for an example, we also never really see groups circle back to this state any often.

For example, if the Sunwell is made the Voidwell (lol) in Midnight, will the blood elves started to wither? If they could, they should. At the moment a lot of the problems effecting these cultures seem to be solved and then never to struggle again.

It reminds me of how the Office started to feel different. The first few seasons they refuse to allow makeup artsist and hairstylists on set during filming because they wanted people to just look like average office workers, but by the final seasons you can tell there is a Hollywood crew working with these people. That's fine, whatever, but it definitely removes the distinct feeling of realism given to the world in the beginning.

That as an example, allowing groups who have climbed out of a hole to stumble occasionally afterwards isn't a knock on their struggles or their perseverance, but a realistic depiction that gaining themes like peace and harmony are not linear paths.

- - - Updated - - -

unpopular opinion but the interesting side of the horde died with garrosh and sylvanas. the horde characters left are lame

I unfortunately agree. I'm hoping Geya'rah can turn into more than just a one dimensional orc, just as people have stated goblins need to move past being one dimensional goblins. Rokhan has some opportunity. Baine too, but they seem to just beat him up. Lor'themar is good, but I gather he'll lean neutral in 12.0 (as blood elves always sort have, with them often looking to rejoin the Alliance).

On short story - its too much of socialism here to me.

Haven't Goblins also always had that theme? There was a lot of very cartooney capitalist tycoon depictions, but a lot of union banter as well. I think it's just part of the economy-driven parts of the race opposed to any messaging.

[Ersula]

Alleria made Void Elves as different tribe of elves. That elves are Alliance - so she "doesn't sound like a neutral gal to me".
So your bias again is fruitless, move along.

In Varodoc's defense Alleria does make very agnostic anti-faction comments in the TWW intro questchain, in contrast to her husband whos few lines of dialog are used to be racist toward orcs.

When will void elves get to have those cool runic tattoos

I hope they add blue & red tattoos for Void elves & Blood elves respectively & top it off with a formal "we will never add additional high elf races" statement in 12.0

[Hitei]

Haven't Goblins also always had that theme? There was a lot of very cartooney capitalist tycoon depictions, but a lot of union banter as well. I think it's just part of the economy-driven parts of the race opposed to any messaging.

Yes. The entire point of the starting area was that Gallywix was terrible and his profiteering got a bunch of people killed and that you were better off not living large and instead trying to look out for your friends and hold each other up.

[Reive]

I unfortunately agree. I'm hoping Geya'rah can turn into more than just a one dimensional orc, just as people have stated goblins need to move past being one dimensional goblins. Rokhan has some opportunity. Baine too, but they seem to just beat him up. Lor'themar is good, but I gather he'll lean neutral in 12.0 (as blood elves always sort have, with them often looking to rejoin the Alliance).

I disagree, not everything needs depth. one dimensional characters with their own gimmick can be good. goblins are a good expample of this. wow is trying too much to give everyone a personality and it fails at it because the devs are trying too much to always be "politically correct".

every character feels the same

[Vakir]

Is it so bad if we have goblin steampunk but without refuse and oil slicks everywhere?

It's more the cultural element than the aesthetic one.

Less cobbled and tighter tech isn't bad if it still has a sense of wackiness. But depriving goblins of their "hat" in part is a dangerous precedent.

[Pyrophax]

In Varodoc's defense Alleria does make very agnostic anti-faction comments in the TWW intro questchain, in contrast to her husband whos few lines of dialog are used to be racist toward orcs.

All that thing is really funny considering Alleria and Anduin, rightful ruler of Stormwind somehow neutral, but Thrall, despite same "neutral" approach - is considering Horde part, far more - somehow in total and heavy Alliance-favored expansion (as far as we know) appears Thrall with shitty story about losing connection with elements AGAIN, and Lillian Voss (one of the rulers of Forsaken nation, face of nu-Forsaken even) - now serve Alleria as some intel, - someone can claim Horde favoritism, heh.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

So, you really can't answer the question. It really just boils down to "I like the 2D caricature." Like that's fine and valid, you like what you like, but I think trying to categorize it any other way isn't honest. Also it has not lead to those outcomes. You gave me no specifics. None. And "well they've sucked at it before" is literally the worst defense one can make.

I mean I did give one specific with the goblin starting area which has you doing all kinds of unethical things in the presuit of gaining capital to become a trade prince.

This is something unlike what any other race does at any point of the game and that makes it stand out even if it does fall apart by the end of the first island .

I'm gonna put it to you like this because your posts are usually more insightful than this: Do you want a 1990s trope world full of memes, references, shallow characters and no depth, or would you want a world that grows, changes, evolves and depicts its denizens as quasi realistic, with dreams and hopes that people can at least sympathize with?

These aren't mutually exclusive but so many people on this forum bang on about bad writing and when you finally get objectively good writing, suddenly it's bad because it didn't go in the direction you want. It's really hard to believe or take people seriously when they act like they couldn't tell if a story was good or not if it hit them in the face. Not all goblins need to be bad stereotypes that are one note. That's objectively bad writing. We need the idea that fantasy races are ALL one way to die in a fire because it's shit. Especially races that are prolific and live in multiple places. One of the biggest fumbles in all of Warcraft is that all of their different races are archetyped so a shift seems out of character. For example: I love mana addict blood elves, but that's gone. But I'm not really fond of super pious sun elves either. It should be a healthy mix. But almost all of WoW is written like this. It needs to end. And if it starts with Gazlowe? Even better.

I don’t think it’s bad writing for the goblins to see that there way of doing things sucks for most of them and it would likely better if they improved work conditions and uplifted all of goblin kind, I just think it’s boring and moves them closer to just being gnomes.

The hyper capitalist structure doesn’t stop them from striving for dreams and hopes it just means it needs to be framed in a different way and said way isn’t represented any where else in wow which makes it sand out, and while it’s possible to keep say uniqueness with changes like this I don’t think blizzard can pull it off.

[Reive]

people are obsessing too much over this "horde vs alliance favoritism". truth is, without faction conflict factions are irrelevant

[milkmustache]

I disagree, not everything needs depth. one dimensional characters with their own gimmick can be good. goblins are a good expample of this. wow is trying too much to give everyone a personality and it fails at it because the devs are trying too much to always be "politically correct".

every character feels the same

Maybe I should revise what I meant, because I agree with you there.

I was focusing more on the mag'har orcs being just orcs conversation that was had here a few days ago. There are some portions of mag'har that have maintained the Blackrock industrial inventors theme that have a lot of flavor to them, but recently a lot of mag'har have just sort of been lumped into the traditionalist MU orcs.

I'd love to see Geya'rah and the Mag'har continue to be industrialists with help from Gazlowe and the Earthen that join the Horde (which is shortly teased in an Earthen's NPC dialogue in Orgrimmar).

It would just be a bummer to get another bloodlust lok'tar ogar orc, when we can instead get a welded steel ironstar cavalry warlord as the mag'har were in WoD.

But you're right, she doesn't need to be a character trying to morally level with every other representative in the council and the Alliance as well. Let her develop more and be the one saying "the Mag'har will lead the charge". Rivalrys with others, belief in her own, etc.

[The-Shan]

people are obsessing too much over this "horde vs alliance favoritism". truth is, without faction conflict factions are irrelevant

I agree, I'd rather people examine things through a: "Is it good world-building?" lens.

[Vakir]

people are obsessing too much over this "horde vs alliance favoritism". truth is, without faction conflict factions are irrelevant

Even then, you can look at it in racial lines. Some characters resonate less with others because people don't connect as significantly with certain cultures or races being shown in certain portions of the story.

Sadly, you can't give equal exposure to like 14 different groups so someone is bound to draw the short straw, but it sure tends to be certain ones.

This was still an issue even when the conflict was happening and it was, like, the D plot.