The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Eurhetemec]

This is rather dismissive and pointlessly contrarian for the sake of it.

Blizzard evidently thinks Shadowlands did enough damage to put it as a bullet point in their leaked investor presentation. So clearly its not irrelevant to them.

I fail to see how it is in any way contrarian, and what you're saying supports what I'm saying. Did you actually read all the words in my post or only some?

[Vakir]

12+game + what the actual fans want ( who are atleast 30 at this point) is not a good formula. Most people want less cuddely stuff anyway. Just make yhis game 16/18+ already and they can do a little deeper into things.

PEGI/ESRB ratings have absolutely nothing to do with it. Mists was marketed as the most cuddly of all and ended up being arguably the darkest expansion, among one of the more coherent stories, and generally is a fan favorite.

A higher rating would just allow for more graphic violence or sexuality. That's it. Story beats or thematic elements aren't hindered by this. It's 100% the writers who choose to make this WoW's tone, not restrictions.

[Dracullus]

Looks life Alpha is down, make sense it's today cause they will be focused on Remix in two days. Finger crossed for all zones build and finally some substantial wave.

[Cheezits]

PEGI/ESRB ratings have absolutely nothing to do with it. Mists was marketed as the most cuddly of all and ended up being arguably the darkest expansion, among one of the more coherent stories, and generally is a fan favorite.

A higher rating would just allow for more graphic violence or sexuality. That's it. Story beats or thematic elements aren't hindered by this. It's 100% the writers who choose to make this WoW's tone, not restrictions.

And then it's not the writers choice really, it's the executive team/shareholders, as the tone is 100% reflective of their sales goals (we want to appeal to X market that enjoys this tone).

I firmly believe part of DFs lack of using major characters/factions as much as possible was an experiment to see if they could profit from an "insular audience" instead.

[Vakir]

And then it's not the writers choice really, it's the executive team/shareholders, as the tone is 100% reflective of their sales goals (we want to appeal to X market that enjoys this tone).

I firmly believe part of DFs lack of using major characters/factions as much as possible was an experiment to see if they could profit from an "insular audience" instead.

Kind of? Marketing and focus groups and all that jazz are important for people putting the money up and have some pull but it's not like every single time there's a shadowy board room saying "we don't want the story to go that way."

DF felt more like it was trying to be "healing" focused and softer after 3 consecutive world ending existential points but instead it was so safe nothing of value occurred. But there were plenty of questlines involving recurring faction leaders. There was certainly nothing insular about 10.2, though. They bombarded everyone front back and center like it was the damn Endgame portals scene no matter how thoroughly unearned it was.

[Houle]

You say this about "The story" but let's be real for like 30 seconds here.

Nobody actually believes that. Not you. Not me. Not Blizzard's current designers. Certainly not Chris Metzen.

Furthermore, 90% of WoW players either didn't understand Shadowlands' story that way, or don't even know Shadowlands' story, because they skipped all but maybe the beginning of the expansion.

This is just something for lore nerds to wring their hands about. It doesn't have real long-term impact because it's VERY clear Blizzard are busily sweeping SL under the rug of history.

Thats besides the point. We werent talking about wether or not its relevant for the future of the story or not, or if players will remember it as such in the future. We were talking about why people were so pissed about the sudden introduction of the Jailer as the LKs creator back then. Doesnt matter if they sweep it under the rug or not. Unless its straight up retconned, thats what happened, and thats the reason why a lot of people disliked that specific part of the story.

Sure, chances probably are that people will just eventually "forget" (more or less) about the Jailer and the rest of SL, but that doesnt change how badly it was received in the first place.

[Ersula]

Thats besides the point. We werent talking about wether or not its relevant for the future of the story or not, or if players will remember it as such in the future. We were talking about why people were so pissed about the sudden introduction of the Jailer as the LKs creator back then. Doesnt matter if they sweep it under the rug or not. Unless its straight up retconned, thats what happened, and thats the reason why a lot of people disliked that specific part of the story.

I think it's the way the story was told that people don't like, not the particular facts of the story. I'm sure these concepts were already canon before Metzen even left Blizzard initially. Blizzard has never been good at clarifing the logistics of its lore very well, and they were stretched even thinner because of Covid. Some charactor decisions were wilding, but that has nothing to do with the cosmic part of the story.

[Houle]

I think it's the way the story was told that people don't like, not the particular facts of the story. I'm sure these concepts were already canon before Metzen even left Blizzard initially. Blizzard has never been good at clarifing the logistics of its lore very well, and they were stretched even thinner because of Covid. Some charactor decisions were wilding, but that has nothing to do with the cosmic part of the story.

The way the story was told certainly also didnt help, but i doubt the character Zovaal wouldve been well received either way, at least by lore fans. His entire role in the story is just too much of an asspull. Warcraft isnt the first franchise were something like this was attempted. Doesnt matter what franchise, many people usually dont like it when a newly created character is retconned into being the "SUPER MEGA BAD GUY BEHIND THE SCENES ALL ALOOOOOOONG". Especially when its at the expense of oldschool, well-known characters.

[huth]

I don't think you understand what the Jailer needed from the Lich King: All he needed from the Lich King was to create the Forge of Souls. Nerzhul would have done that if Illidan hadn't gotten in his way. Then Tirion stopped Arthas from opening the veil. Arthas didn't do that because Argus needed to die before that. Then when Bolvar has the crown it's clear it's only a matter of time before he was dominated completely, as the Horsemen were planning on killing him the day the veil was opened.

Zovaal himself said they failed at their tasks. So that's a pretty cut and dry thing.

[Kiivar86]

The way the story was told certainly also didnt help, but i doubt the character Zovaal wouldve been well received either way, at least by lore fans. His entire role in the story is just too much of an asspull. Warcraft isnt the first franchise were something like this was attempted. Doesnt matter what franchise, many people usually dont like it when a newly created character is retconned into being the "SUPER MEGA BAD GUY BEHIND THE SCENES ALL ALOOOOOOONG". Especially when its at the expense of oldschool, well-known characters.

Brings to mind Naruto, at least as I recall how it went at the time.

The man behind the man behind the man behind the man.

Zovaal felt like just a bit too much, to me anyway. I could buy someone like him behind the scenes but to buy him being behind so much was laughable and too much to accept. At the bare minimum, if they had built him up more than a single expansion, it could have maybe not worked, but not feel so cheap and hollow.

[milkmustache]

Looks life Alpha is down, make sense it's today cause they will be focused on Remix in two days. Finger crossed for all zones build and finally some substantial wave.

I remember someone from Blizz saying we'd be getting a look at Deephaul Ravine in alpha soon, so I imagine that'll be up in this one.

[Eurhetemec]

I think it's the way the story was told that people don't like, not the particular facts of the story. I'm sure these concepts were already canon before Metzen even left Blizzard initially. Blizzard has never been good at clarifing the logistics of its lore very well, and they were stretched even thinner because of Covid. Some charactor decisions were wilding, but that has nothing to do with the cosmic part of the story.

I tend to agree. I think people overstate how much the actual lore details matter. It's more about cool characters and memorable (in a good way) moments, and SL failed to deliver on both fronts.

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at least by lore fans.

Sure, but that's like, less than 1% of players, I would guess - that actually care about the lore in the detail-oriented way you're describing. Was it an asspull? Absolutely, but WoW is full of asspulls. It was much more damaged by the storytelling around it than the particular "man behind the man" stuff, which was sufficiently vague that it wasn't even very memorable. You talk about "at the expense of..." but like, most people didn't see it as being "at the expense..." of anything, just as being dull, incoherent, and meaningless even by WoW standards.

[Alanar]

PEGI/ESRB ratings have absolutely nothing to do with it. Mists was marketed as the most cuddly of all and ended up being arguably the darkest expansion, among one of the more coherent stories, and generally is a fan favorite.

A higher rating would just allow for more graphic violence or sexuality. That's it. Story beats or thematic elements aren't hindered by this. It's 100% the writers who choose to make this WoW's tone, not restrictions.

I am talking storylines. A story could absolutely be more difficult or have hidden meanings in that sense. This is not about the graphics. They have to be mindfull of the exact reason, that literal kids are playing this. Not about the writer, the writer does it with guidelines and 12+ is defo one of them The story needs to be readable by that at the minumum.

[Ersula]

Zovaal himself said they failed at their tasks. So that's a pretty cut and dry thing.

Nerzhul failed to make the forge of souls. He failed because of Illidan, not his own free will. So Arthas was needed.

Arthas failed to open the veil, because he was killed by Tirion before Argus was killed, not because of his own free will. So Sylvanas was needed.

Them failing their tasks had nothing to do with them exherting free will, except in Sylvanas' case. Though I think revealing Arthas actually saved Uther from damnation by turning Sylvanas instead of him would have been an excellent twist they didn't go with.

[Alanar]

]
No.

This is nonsense. The assumption that because most WoW players are 30+ (probably true, but you have no proof) doesn't mean that those people want WoW to suddenly change to being "mature and edgy". That's a teenager's logic (or someone thinking like a teenager). Adults generally want stuff to stay the same, or improve in quality, but not to change in tone/style.

Further, a lot of WoW players are younger, whether they're the kids of adults who play, or just younger people playing, and WoW isn't Grand Theft Auto. We don't need to know about Thrall's erectile dysfunction, or whatever it is you want to hear about. There's no upside to that. It's just wanting things to be edgy for the sake of edgy-ness.

Simple observstion, most kids I knew and were around at the time I played warcraft 3 and vanilla were around that age of 12/14. Pretry save bet, I assume. Ofc there are older players, I know plenty. Age of 30/35/40 is very common for people who started this game back then. Btw this has nothing to do with a game being edgy. You can have a a story, that looks cuddle, but isnt.

The game needs to be readable with a 12+ in mind, simple guidelines I would imagine when starting to write the story right? A story can absolutely be more mature and having deeper meanings. Wow isnt that imo.

[Houle]

Nerzhul failed to make the forge of souls. He failed because of Illidan, not his own free will. So Arthas was needed.

Arthas failed to open the veil, because he was killed by Tirion before Argus was killed, not because of his own free will. So Sylvanas was needed.

Them failing their tasks had nothing to do with them exherting free will, except in Sylvanas' case. Though I think revealing Arthas actually saved Uther from damnation by turning Sylvanas instead of him would have been an excellent twist they didn't go with.

Now thats some headcanon. Neither Ner'zhul nor Arthas ever had any intention of "opening the veil". Thats why they were "failures" - both simply didnt do what the Jailer wanted them to do, bc they had their own goals. Neither of them were "dominated". The helm doesnt dominate the user, it allows the user to dominate. The LKs had their own free will.

Stated in an interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuwhaKo3UL8&t=40s

And in a quest:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Tae...#Shadowlands_2

Sure, but that's like, less than 1% of players, I would guess - that actually care about the lore in the detail-oriented way you're describing. Was it an asspull? Absolutely, but WoW is full of asspulls. It was much more damaged by the storytelling around it than the particular "man behind the man" stuff, which was sufficiently vague that it wasn't even very memorable. You talk about "at the expense of..." but like, most people didn't see it as being "at the expense..." of anything, just as being dull, incoherent, and meaningless even by WoW standards.

Perhaps, but the end result is the same. The casuals mostly disliked it, the hardcore fans mostly disliked it. Each for their own reasons.

[Vakir]

I am talking storylines. A story could absolutely be more difficult or have hidden meanings in that sense. This is not about the graphics. They have to be mindfull of the exact reason, that literal kids are playing this. Not about the writer, the writer does it with guidelines and 12+ is defo one of them The story needs to be readable by that at the minumum.

I know you meant the story. That's my point. The ratings board has very little bearing on that. The vast majority of good video game narratives fall into a similar ratings category. They aren't inherently limited - if it's like a bad Saturday morning cartoon, it's because Blizzard creatively wanted to do that regardless of their limitations and/or are just too incompetent to realize it's trash.

Some of it is for accessibility because it's a corporate product, but as I said before, a shadowy cabal of executives aren't scrutinizing every script or story beat. They just broadly want an accessible product. There's more inclined to look at it from a macro level.

[Alanar]

I know you meant the story. That's my point. The ratings board has very little bearing on that. They just broadly want an accessible product. There's more inclined to look at it from a macro level.

Which is what I am saying, is the story needs to be readable and imo wow isn't perse deeper then the very basics of a story. I am throwing the 12+ rating as an argument, because I truly think the storytelling is many times, very easy, basic and obvious, it therefor becomes childish to me.. Maybe it's bad from me to link it to that, so be it.

With what some fans want is a lotr level of backround stuff, that could be explored Which is great and all (trust me sometimes you wish it had more to certain character or what have you), but it's the same as giving a 12 year, the fellowship of the ring and go read that.

[Nymrohd]

Finally getting Totemic

[Vakir]

Maybe it's bad from me to link it to that, so be it.

Hey, awesome. I'm glad we can come to an agreem----

With what some fans want is a lotr level of backround stuff, that could be explored Which is great and all (trust me sometimes you wish it had more to certain character or what have you), but it's the same as giving a 12 year, the fellowship of the ring and go read that.

Welp, two steps forward, one step back.

...Lord of the Rings, a famously 12+ film adaptation that actually was darker than its source material and still had colossal mainstream appeal.

LotR had huge readership after that among younger groups and was also a nerd cultural touchstone of that same demographic in the 70s and 80s beforehand.

Hell, it was retconned to the ground, but The Hobbit was literally written by Tolkein for his young child and is one of the lighter reads you can pick for the fantasy genre.

I think your assessment just needs to stop while you're ahead. It's not about age ratings. Blizzard just isn't good at telling a story even compared to their contemporaries, let alone one of the finest philologists in history.