The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Lady Atia]

Also, it seems like the earthen gems now show through your armour set!

[Super Dickmann]

Like it or dislike it - the Jailer didnt control the LKs. The very reason he was so pissed at all of them is bc all of them gave him the finger and did their own thing, instead of following his plans.

It really gets me that people don't take this into account, when the LKs being puppets of the Bald Man was such an atrocious plot point that even in an expansion full of unforced error after error and massive retcons, they made sure to have the Bald Man, the descriptions of items and quests all explicitly scream that no, Arthas and Ner'zhul did all this stuff on their own and even Bolvar just turned more evil from the hat and wasn't a puppet.

[Xilurm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsfkLp7J4jw

Earthen actually get a cool little starting mini zone and questline, with some RP options for your character. Hopefully this is the new path moving forward and they all get little intros. But new starting quests are exciting!

Would it be too much to say that this little segment is much better than something like Exile's Reach? Even though it only lasts for about 20 mins give or take. It certainly makes me feel more immersed with the race I'm playing.

Also I really like the RP options, we need more of those! I know DF had some at the start and that was kinda cool, but we need more race specific like these.

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I just want to say the same - you even get a race specific starter set that's basically mini-heritage armour, instead of the generic stuff other races start in.

Such cool gear. Makes you wanna just mog it through the whole questing experience. And that's just one of three sets they're apparently getting. The other two being the civilian clothing and the heritage armour.

[Ersula]

That "dev" is literally Steve Danuser, aka the narrative lead of the entire Warcraft franchise back then. Youre trying to argue against what was the ultimate story authority back then (no matter if he was competent or not) lul. And no, the story only says that the helmet slowly turns the user more and more "evil"...which has been more or less known for over a decade now. Not putting them under the Jailers control.

Like it or dislike it - the Jailer didnt control the LKs. The very reason he was so pissed at all of them is bc all of them gave him the finger and did their own thing, instead of following his plans.

That wasn't Steve Danuser in that interview... Published WoW fiction is always going to be more canon that a random dev's comments.

No, that's not what Zovaal's complaint was. They did not fail through incompetence. They actively did something other than he wanted them to. He wouldn't have made a special torture chamber for Ner'zhul if the guy had just been incompetent; that was for defiance. The incompetent he just drops without further notice.

Okay but what was the thing he didn't want them to do? That nobody knows is telling. He's just treating Ner'zhul the same way he treats everyone in the maw: Eternal torture

[allegrian]

I agree with the earlier comments on them raiding Kalimdor. You have good set up with the Maghar and the Draenei having interesting reactions to it, and it would be interesting how the Night Elves respond.

Would be cool if after TLT there is a huge Kalimdor expansion, then Avaloren after that, then ????

Starting the future trilogy with them invading either kalimdor or EK would be a good way to start. You're forced to play on the revamped free continent of the 2 regardless of your faction (horde plays in remade EK if they invade kalimdor, and alliance in remade kalimdor if they invade EK), then take the fight to the other remade continent in the second game, and then the last expansion taking the fight to the empire land in avaloren against the emperor himself.

[Xilurm]

Starting the future trilogy with them invading either kalimdor or EK would be a good way to start. You're forced to play on the revamped free continent of the 2 regardless of your faction (horde plays in remade EK if they invade kalimdor, and alliance in remade kalimdor if they invade EK), then take the fight to the other remade continent in the second game, and then the last expansion taking the fight to the empire land in avaloren against the emperor himself.

Well if Midnight revamps Northern EK, then that means revamped Northern Kalimdor for the first invasion, Southern EK for the second invasion, which would leave Southern Kalimdor for the future.

[huth]

It really gets me that people don't take this into account, when the LKs being puppets of the Bald Man was such an atrocious plot point that even in an expansion full of unforced error after error and massive retcons, they made sure to have the Bald Man, the descriptions of items and quests all explicitly scream that no, Arthas and Ner'zhul did all this stuff on their own and even Bolvar just turned more evil from the hat and wasn't a puppet.

Somehow nobody seems to grasp that Anduin was basically the first time he ever went for full actual control.

I always thought it was rather obvious that before that, he mostly just threw the kitchensink at the wall and went with whatever stuck. He's not a chessmaster, he just had hundreds of thousands of plans going, most of which failed. What we saw in SL was just the successful ones finally getting him to the point where he had a shot at the goal.

Denathrius is the smart behind the scenes hidden schemes guy. Zovaal was just a guy with way to much time and nothing better to do than try every stupid scheme that came to him.

[Cheezits]

Well if Midnight revamps Northern EK, then that means revamped Northern Kalimdor for the first invasion, Southern EK for the second invasion, which would leave Southern Kalimdor for the future.

Southern EK is honestly such a bizarre landmass that I'm not sure how you would unite it under one theme. You have Stranglethorn for pirates and trolls, but then you have KARAZHAN, and the Dark Portal? Plus the Stormwind settlements.

How do you even unite them? At least Quelthalas is pretty neatly tied between horde races, including Lordaeron with the Forsaken, and then the Scourge having a hand in all of the zones (and topping that with the Void in Midnight)

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Somehow nobody seems to grasp that Anduin was basically the first time he ever went for full actual control.

I always thought it was rather obvious that before that, he mostly just threw the kitchensink at the wall and went with whatever stuck. He's not a chessmaster, he just had hundreds of thousands of plans going, most of which failed. What we saw in SL was just the successful ones finally getting him to the point where he had a shot at the goal.

Denathrius is the smart behind the scenes hidden schemes guy. Zovaal was just a guy with way to much time and nothing better to do than try every stupid scheme that came to him.

The original intent was probably that Zovaal was the chess master with Denathrius ALSO being a chess master, but subservient. However, as they never ever got into Denathrius's reasons for helping Zovaal, and even made him look very suspicious in the last time we ever saw him (the Zovaal flashback: he seems very sassy/knowing when Zovaal is being banished), they may have immediately started walking it back to Denathrius being the real mastermind. Which lines up with how the Nathrezim have been portrayed for a long time, even in WC3.

But to be honest, it could've been that way from the start, as it was really sussy that they never got into his motivations at all. Then there's the fact that Denathrius's obvious eventual winged form never appeared. His design is basically incomplete without big wings.

[allegrian]

Southern EK is honestly such a bizarre landmass that I'm not sure how you would unite it under one theme. You have Stranglethorn for pirates and trolls, but then you have KARAZHAN, and the Dark Portal? Plus the Stormwind settlements.

How do you even unite them? At least Quelthalas is pretty neatly tied between horde races, including Lordaeron with the Forsaken, and then the Scourge having a hand in all of the zones (and topping that with the Void in Midnight)

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The original intent was probably that Zovaal was the chess master with Denathrius ALSO being a chess master, but subservient. However, as they never ever got into Denathrius's reasons for helping Zovaal, and even made him look very suspicious in the last time we ever saw him (the Zovaal flashback: he seems very sassy/knowing when Zovaal is being banished), they may have immediately started walking it back to Denathrius being the real mastermind. Which lines up with how the Nathrezim have been portrayed for a long time, even in WC3. Then there's the fact that Denathrius's obvious eventual winged form never appeared.

But to be honest, it could've been that way from the start, as it was really sussy that they never got into his motivations at all.

You would use the human and dwarven kingdoms together and leave the weird zones as patch zones or another expansion. STV could be 1 zone from a south seas expansion featuring ships and pirate islands.

[Cheezits]

I just want to say the same - you even get a race specific starter set that's basically mini-heritage armour, instead of the generic stuff other races start in.

I am really interested in how they do this with the Harronir. I hope they don't cheap out and only do this for the Earthen because they have more NPCs.

[Varodoc]

Has anyone seen this? It's from the Earthen intro:




Since Dragons have nothing to do with Khaz Algar, doesn't this confirm that the chains around Azeroth in the TLT logo are of Titan making?

If the Titans are keeping the World-Soul imprisoned, why exactly is Xal'atath evil for wanting to break her free? If she wasn't trying to kill My waifu Alleria, I'd be on board for Team Xal'atath.

[Xilurm]

Southern EK is honestly such a bizarre landmass that I'm not sure how you would unite it under one theme. You have Stranglethorn for pirates and trolls, but then you have KARAZHAN, and the Dark Portal? Plus the Stormwind settlements.

How do you even unite them? At least Quelthalas is pretty neatly tied between horde races, including Lordaeron with the Forsaken, and then the Scourge having a hand in all of the zones (and topping that with the Void in Midnight)

Well in past expansions continents all have pretty different themes among the zones, I don't think this will be an issue.

[huth]

Starting the future trilogy with them invading either kalimdor or EK would be a good way to start. You're forced to play on the revamped free continent of the 2 regardless of your faction (horde plays in remade EK if they invade kalimdor, and alliance in remade kalimdor if they invade EK), then take the fight to the other remade continent in the second game, and then the last expansion taking the fight to the empire land in avaloren against the emperor himself.

Meh, i'd rather see the invasion as the pre-expansion event, then spend 3 expansions taking the fight over to them and slowly working through the empire. Neither side has much ability to get large troop collections through to the other right now anyway, so i'm not sure how such an invasion would even work to begin with. In fact, it'd be more sensible to have them attempt an invasion, have it fail horribly and us getting sent over to preventatively stop them from trying again since we have a history of prevailing in situations like that.

[Xilurm]

Since Dragons have nothing to do with Khaz Algar, doesn't this confirm that the chains around Azeroth in the TLT logo are of Titan making?

If the Titans are keeping the World-Soul imprisoned, why exactly is Xal'atath evil for wanting to break her free? If she wasn't trying to kill My waifu Alleria, I'd be on board for Team Xal'atath.

Xal'atath wants to break Azeroth free? Or give her soul to the void so she can be a Titan void slave?

[huth]

The original intent was probably that Zovaal was the chess master with Denathrius ALSO being a chess master, but subservient. However, as they never ever got into Denathrius's reasons for helping Zovaal, and even made him look very suspicious in the last time we ever saw him (the Zovaal flashback: he seems very sassy/knowing when Zovaal is being banished), they may have immediately started walking it back to Denathrius being the real mastermind. Which lines up with how the Nathrezim have been portrayed for a long time, even in WC3.

But to be honest, it could've been that way from the start, as it was really sussy that they never got into his motivations at all. Then there's the fact that Denathrius's obvious eventual winged form never appeared. His design is basically incomplete without big wings.

It also goes into Zovaal's biggest issue, that he was never really explored as a character. He was just there. They should have kept the original old guy design at least instead of making him a generic baldy bald big human.

[Super Dickmann]

I always thought it was rather obvious that before that, he mostly just threw the kitchensink at the wall and went with whatever stuck. He's not a chessmaster, he just had hundreds of thousands of plans going, most of which failed. What we saw in SL was just the successful ones finally getting him to the point where he had a shot at the goal.

I am aware of this attempt to defend the SL Bald Man writing, but it doesn't cut it, because the writers didn't actually know how the Bald Man's planning was meant to work or changed their mind constantly. They couldn't decide whether he'd had an influence on KT or not, first introducing him as his own planner but just an abducted accomplice to the Bald Man in Maldraxxus, then having him reveal he was actually a Bald Man appreciator all along, ruining Path of the Damned as well as all of his appearances up to this point and making his dreadlord connection nonsensical, to then backtracking on this in an interview. Is the Bald Man's success based on his ability to engineer events by manipulating people? The Legion attacking Azeroth and Mueh'zala being told to say exactly what was needed to get Sylvanas on side seems to check out, as does him giving different goals to all his followers. But that can't be true, because things like where the sword lands are not based on any factor under his control. So maybe he's precognitive - the Odyn eye deal and the Lich King suggests it, but this is never brought up. Also never brought up, despite his whole shtick being about determinism and fixing the cosmos is that he has a magic device in his lab that allows him to manipulate fate, which is an established SL plot point and he has a man who can steer fate there in custody. But this use is also never gotten into even if ti could be used to explain every contrived coincidence up to this point.

The whole of the Bald Man saga only requires a singular prior retcon, which is to the origin of the Dreadlords, his actual insertion into the lore past that is, if looked at in aggregate, fairly limited, but it's so poorly handled that I can't blame anyone rightly taking the piss to this day. The Bald Man is all things to all people, whether he's a schemer, a brute, a mastermind, a tortured soul varies depending on the needs of the scene and since outside of the Sylvanas book he speaks exclusively in cliches and only exists for one expansion, no Illidan or Kael style patch job is on the horizon for him. His only consistent trait is that he's really fucking boring. Good luck to whatever poor fuck has to wrangle this into the next Chronicle.

[allegrian]

I hope chronicles 4 addresses and retcons some of the bfa and SL problems.

[Varodoc]

Xal'atath wants to break Azeroth free? Or give her soul to the void so she can be a Titan void slave?

Chronicles is Titan propaganda.

Dimensius consumed the World-Soul of K'aresh and yet the Universe wasn't destroyed by a Void Titan.

[Cheezits]

The whole of the Bald Man saga only requires a singular prior retcon, which is to the origin of the Dreadlords, his actual insertion into the lore past that is, if looked at in aggregate, fairly limited, but it's so poorly handled that I can't blame anyone rightly taking the piss to this day. The Bald Man is all things to all people, whether he's a schemer, a brute, a mastermind, a tortured soul varies depending on the needs of the scene and since outside of the Sylvanas book he speaks exclusively in cliches and only exists for one expansion, no Illidan or Kael style patch job is on the horizon for him. His only consistent trait is that he's really fucking boring. Good luck to whatever poor fuck has to wrangle this into the next Chronicle.

Dreadlords work really well as hell spies, IMO. They just picked the wrong Devil for them to ultimately report to. Which can also be retconned.

Hell, Malganis's comments on "glad we're done with this farce" in Sepulcher can just be "lol glad this guy will die so we can stop working with him"

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I hope chronicles 4 addresses and retcons some of the bfa and SL problems.

It absolutely will. I will bet good money they retcon the "string theory" for starters, and hint at what is going on with Shamans/why they are absent (going to guess it has something to do with the Lifelands). Also 10000% retcon the "echo/copy" thing that was posited about ghosts in the mortal plane. That seems to already be the case with how DF treats ghosts, ESPECIALLY the Orc and Draenei heritage.

[huth]

I am aware of this attempt to defend the SL Bald Man writing, but it doesn't cut it, because the writers didn't actually know how the Bald Man's planning was meant to work or changed their mind constantly. They couldn't decide whether he'd had an influence on KT or not, first introducing him as his own planner but just an abducted accomplice to the Bald Man in Maldraxxus, then having him reveal he was actually a Bald Man appreciator all along, ruining Path of the Damned as well as all of his appearances up to this point and making his dreadlord connection nonsensical, to then backtracking on this in an interview. Is the Bald Man's success based on his ability to engineer events by manipulating people? The Legion attacking Azeroth and Mueh'zala being told to say exactly what was needed to get Sylvanas on side seems to check out, as does him giving different goals to all his followers. But that can't be true, because things like where the sword lands are not based on any factor under his control. So maybe he's precognitive - the Odyn eye deal and the Lich King suggests it, but this is never brought up. Also never brought up, despite his whole shtick being about determinism and fixing the cosmos is that he has a magic device in his lab that allows him to manipulate fate, which is an established SL plot point and he has a man who can steer fate there in custody. But this use is also never gotten into even if ti could be used to explain every contrived coincidence up to this point.

The whole of the Bald Man saga only requires a singular prior retcon, which is to the origin of the Dreadlords, his actual insertion into the lore past that is, if looked at in aggregate, fairly limited, but it's so poorly handled that I can't blame anyone rightly taking the piss to this day. The Bald Man is all things to all people, whether he's a schemer, a brute, a mastermind, a tortured soul varies depending on the needs of the scene and since outside of the Sylvanas book he speaks exclusively in cliches and only exists for one expansion, no Illidan or Kael style patch job is on the horizon for him. His only consistent trait is that he's really fucking boring. Good luck to whatever poor fuck has to wrangle this into the next Chronicle.

That's mostly about him being written poorly, though. And i certainly don't disagree on that part. No matter what he was supposed to be, the execution was an utter mess.