The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

My idea is that the cosmos was not just empty before the First Ones. There were places and beings around and the First ones displaced them to create their own multiverse. So there was something in the Shadowlands before Zereth Mortis started spitting afterlives and forging Eternals. After all we know that Marasmius predates the Winter Queen. Heck the original realm might not even have been connected to Death.

The Shadowlands existing before Zereth Mortis would go against the whole point of Zereth Mortis.

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I absolutely forgot about Marasmius loredropping that the Winter Queen was not there to start. And this is coming from a FUNGUS, another natural death themed creature.

That just means the Progenitors made Ardenweald before sending the Winter Queen there.

[Cheezits]

Here is the thing tho, Maldraxxus was made as the Progenitors answer to the whole "threat to the Shadowlands" problem, which implies they were already well into their Shadowlands development process prior to its creation.

Also, each Pantheon member embodies different aspects of Death in a primal sense.

That is the purpose of Maldraxxus when we visit, and what we are told... but it is the least associated with the cycle, and again, is very suspiciously "natural" in the way that one would expect life to resemble in a Death world. Fungi, bone minerals, etc.

[Joshuaj]

If they were only speaking figuratively about being sisters, why would the Winter Queen be so offended on a personal level that she didn't answer her calls? There was serious emotional investment there.
Why would someone who invented the cosmic order struggle so much at trying to undo it? If he made the other Eternal Ones why would the Primus know how to make weapons he could not?

The answer to your Primus question is simple. The First Ones aren't the "first members of each pantheon". That's silly.

Also, say I humor your Jailer question rq, you do realize he's against the Cosmic system of the Progenitors because of the 7th yeah?

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That is the purpose of Maldraxxus when we visit, and what we are told... but it is the least associated with the cycle, and again, is very suspiciously "natural" in the way that one would expect life to resemble in a Death world. Fungi, bone minerals, etc.

Those are aspects of Death, which the element of decay primarily takes from (funny enough lol). The place is supposed to look like a rotting corpse, because it embodies that aspect. It's gross, it's full of skulls, it's terrible, and it's the perfect place to house the military might of Death.

[Cheezits]

There being a prototype Primus in ZM does throw a wrench in the idea, but everything else I mentioned still stands. It just doesn't fit: aesthetically, probably to have it stand out in a meta fashion, but also in its incredibly non-mechanical operations.

[Joshuaj]

The idea of the Shadowlands existing pre-Zereth Mortis especially makes no sense considering the Sepulcher is where the fabric of the Shadowlands was made. The primordial energies of Death came from that inner sanctum.

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There being a prototype Primus in ZM does throw a wrench in the idea, but everything else I mentioned still stands. It just doesn't fit: aesthetically, probably to have it stand out in a meta fashion, but also in its incredibly non-mechanical operations.

The Jailer also calls the Primus "brother", and the Primus states that eternal ones are forbidden from entering the place of THEIR creation (He says our in the actual line).

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And to add onto it more, the Oracle Saezurah states that all things Eternal were made in Zereth Mortis. Archon, Primus, Winter Queen, Sire, and Arbiter.

[Ersula]

The Shadowlands existing before Zereth Mortis would go against the whole point of Zereth Mortis.

Not if what he means all of existence is basically split into two universes & the veil was created to separate them. There is the material plane & everything else. The Shadowlands & Zereth Mortis essentially exist on the same layer. It was just probably called something else before it was known as the shadowlands.

The idea of the Shadowlands existing pre-Zereth Mortis especially makes no sense considering the Sepulcher is where the fabric of the Shadowlands was made. The primordial energies of Death came from that inner sanctum.

The Sepulcher made the physical landmasses of the Afterlives, not the actual plane of existence. As it was much easier to go from Oribos to Zereth Mortis than it was from Azeroth to the Shadowlands. Going to Zereth Mortis from the Shadowlands was more like going from Azeroth to Argus.

[Joshuaj]

Not if what he means all of existence is basically split into two universes & the veil was created to separate them. There is the material plane & everything else. The Shadowlands & Zereth Mortis essentially exist on the same layer. It was just probably called something else before it was known as the shadowlands.

The Shadowlands and Zereth Mortis do NOT exist in the same layer, what? Also, elaborate on what you mean here if you can?

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To give you an idea, the Veil is the barrier between the Mortal realm and Death, but that's it

[Ersula]

The Shadowlands and Zereth Mortis do NOT exist in the same layer, what? Also, elaborate on what you mean here if you can?

To give you an idea, the Veil is the barrier between the Mortal realm and Death, but that's it

There was no veil between the shadowlands & Zereth Mortis. They just didn't know it's physical location. Going from Oribos to Zereth Mortis seems a lot more like going from Azeroth to Argus, what with Zovaal/Illidan needing a keystone. Opening the veil was a lot more violent.

The Jailer also calls the Primus "brother", and the Primus states that eternal ones are forbidden from entering the place of THEIR creation (He says our in the actual line).

Then it seems the most likely explanation is that the First Ones really were a progenitor race that came before everything else. If that's the case I don't think we'll ever learn anything about them & they're supposed to be ineffable gods keeping the origin of the universe a mystery. Much like the Dwemer in Elder Scrolls.

[Joshuaj]

Not if what he means all of existence is basically split into two universes & the veil was created to separate them. There is the material plane & everything else. The Shadowlands & Zereth Mortis essentially exist on the same layer. It was just probably called something else before it was known as the shadowlands.
The Sepulcher made the physical landmasses of the Afterlives, not the actual plane of existence. As it was much easier to go from Oribos to Zereth Mortis than it was from Azeroth to the Shadowlands. Going to Zereth Mortis from the Shadowlands was more like going from Azeroth to Argus.

This is false. The fabric of the Shadowlands was made at the Sepulcher. The actual realms however were made using the Forge of Afterlives.

Also, entering Zereth Mortis is pretty tough, as it requires needing all the covenant sigils in order to activate the way. That's a tough process in of itself, especially since the Eternal Ones are not only very strong, but they also follow the law of not entering the place of their creation.

It's nothing akin to using a dimensional/lightspeed ship to hop from planet to planet, or something akin to that.

And this applies to location as well, as Zereth Mortis is tucked away in the ether of the cosmology itself (so much so that Firim had to transcend into new layers of thought each time in order to dare find a way into the workshop), while Argus is located somewhere in the upper layers of the Nether, and simply requires an anchor using the Sargerite Keystone in order for a proper portal between both it and Azeroth to be made.

[Worldshaper]

Elune:

- "Lover" to Eonar, to the point of her tears being a Pillar of Creation, instead of Eonar having one. Collaborated on World Trees.

- "Sister" to the Winter Queen. Able to direct souls into her realm, including Ysera.

- "Mother" to the Night Elves ("mother moon"). Literally Cenarius' mom. Part of the "Earth Mother" to the Tauren (her left eye, specifically).

- Appears as a moon, has a light/shadow thing going on, can infuse people with immense power, would bathe in the Well of Eternity, etc.

- Called an upstart goddess by Xal'atath, implying her current status is something she took on or ascended to at some point.

Wouldn't surprise me if she's an ancient Naaru, at one point circulating Azeroth's Worldsoul to protect and safeguard its development. Then, matter coalslesced around it to form the moon we know.

She worked through Freya to let Eonar shape the Dream and create the World Trees, instrumental in the evolution of protectors for Azeroth.

The Wild Gods, early denizens of Azeroth, came from the "realms of Life," and became her allies in a tumultuous time.

The Worldsoul was effectively the inspiration for the Earth Mother myth, as she once had a greater presence on Azeroth prior to being almost corruoted by the Void, and being subsequently put to sleep (stasis) by the Titans.

The realms of Life and Death were tethered to Azeroth since a Shard of Light hit the planet early on, creating the Elementals. That's how the Worldsoul could alter and manipulate them (sparking the "Earth Mother" story), and how Elune was able to mess around with them.


Xal'atath calls Elune an upstart goddess because she was present when Elune was in her naaru form on Azeroth. The after becoming a moon, she sort of rose above it all and became somebody pulling the strings behind the scenes. To Xal'atath, she's just a naaru.

'The Light has made a bargain with the enemy of all" basically just means that Elune has dealt with every cosmic force one way or another. To each other force, every force is "the enemy of all [the rest of us]".

She became like sisters with the WQ, lovers with Eonar and mama of Cenarius. She probably at some point infused the 5th Old God with power over life and death (renewal), perhaps to somehow shape the Curse of Flesh or something. Not sure about Disorder, but we do know Sargeras at some point saw the Worldsoul and had an epiphany. Maybe Elune had a finger in that somehow.

[Joshuaj]

There was no veil between the shadowlands & Zereth Mortis. They just didn't know it's physical location. Going from Oribos to Zereth Mortis seems a lot more like going from Azeroth to Argus, what with Zovaal/Illidan needing a keystone. Opening the veil was a lot more violent.Then it seems the most likely explanation is that the First Ones really were a progenitor race that came before everything else. If that's the case I don't think we'll ever learn anything about them & they're supposed to be ineffable gods keeping the origin of the universe a mystery. Much like the Dwemer in Elder Scrolls.

This isn't really true as Zereth Mortis was tucked away around the Shadowlands' very fabric, serving as the behind the scenes of it all. So while there is the rest of the Shadowlands, behind everything, in its own area, there is Zereth Mortis, and it's made even more complex once you enter its inner sanctum, as the heart of the Sepulcher exists in its own area within the center of the Cosmology.

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Elune:

- "Lover" to Eonar, to the point of her tears being a Pillar of Creation, instead of Eonar having one. Collaborated on World Trees.

- "Sister" to the Winter Queen. Able to direct souls into her realm, including Ysera.

- "Mother" to the Night Elves ("mother moon"). Literally Cenarius' mom. Part of the "Earth Mother" to the Tauren (her left eye, specifically).

- Appears as a moon, has a light/shadow thing going on, can infuse people with immense power, would bathe in the Well of Eternity, etc.

- Called an upstart goddess by Xal'atath, implying her current status is something she took on or ascended to at some point.

Wouldn't surprise me if she's an ancient Naaru, at one point circulating Azeroth's Worldsoul to protect and safeguard its development. Then, matter coalslesced around it to form the moon we know.

She worked through Freya to let Eonar shape the Dream and create the World Trees, instrumental in the evolution of protectors for Azeroth.

The Wild Gods, early denizens of Azeroth, came from the "realms of Life," and became her allies in a tumultuous time.

The Worldsoul was effectively the inspiration for the Earth Mother myth, as she once had a greater presence on Azeroth prior to being almost corruoted by the Void, and being subsequently put to sleep (stasis) by the Titans.

The realms of Life and Death were tethered to Azeroth since a Shard of Light hit the planet early on, creating the Elementals. That's how the Worldsoul could alter and manipulate them (sparking the "Earth Mother" story), and how Elune was able to mess around with them.


Xal'atath calls Elune an upstart goddess because she was present when Elune was in her naaru form on Azeroth. The after becoming a moon, she sort of rose above it all and became somebody pulling the strings behind the scenes. To Xal'atath, she's just a naaru.

'The Light has made a bargain with the enemy of all" basically just means that Elune has dealt with every cosmic force one way or another. To each other force, every force is "the enemy of all [the rest of us]".

She became like sisters with the WQ, lovers with Eonar and mama of Cenarius. She probably at some point infused the 5th Old God with power over life and death (renewal), perhaps to somehow shape the Curse of Flesh or something. Not sure about Disorder, but we do know Sargeras at some point saw the Worldsoul and had an epiphany. Maybe Elune had a finger in that somehow.

Elune is not a Naaru or a light entity. This theory needs to end.

[rainhard]

This is false. The fabric of the Shadowlands was made at the Sepulcher. The actual realms however were made using the Forge of Afterlives.

Also, entering Zereth Mortis is pretty tough, as it requires needing all the covenant sigils in order to activate the way. That's a tough process in of itself, especially since the Eternal Ones are not only very strong, but they also follow the law of not entering the place of their creation.

It's nothing akin to using a dimensional/lightspeed ship to hop from planet to planet, or something akin to that.

And this applies to location as well, as Zereth Mortis is tucked away in the ether of the cosmology itself (so much so that Firim had to transcend into new layers of thought each time in order to dare find a way into the workshop), while Argus is located somewhere in the upper layers of the Nether, and simply requires an anchor using the Sargerite Keystone in order for a proper portal between both it and Azeroth to be made.

Then how did the jailer steal a part of it with his chains after locating it with a telescope with the help of the dominated fatescribe in the raid sanctum of domination?

[Joshuaj]

Also, the First Ones can remain a mystery, but them being the creators of the Cosmology is seemingly our only given thing regarding their "existence".

[Vakir]

...gotta say, really didn't miss this.

[Joshuaj]

Then how did the jailer steal a part of it with his chains after locating it with a telescope with the help of the dominated fatescribe in the raid sanctum of domination?

Most likely by anchoring Torghast to a certain location, where the chains could reach beyond the limits of the Shadowlands. Zovaal was also strong enough to pull that off at the time also. Ik the SoD dungeon journal said that it's an "unknown realm of the Shadowlands", but the 9.2 talk regarding it's location gives me the impression that they changed it mid way, to where it's not simply a realm of the Shadowlands and that it's something more, which IS the case lol. Firim talks about the troubles of finding the realm in his notes.

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...gotta say, really didn't miss this.

I apologize. Wanna go back to discussing War Within stuff? Cause I'd honestly like that a ton.

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Like I said, sorry for the tangent. I get a bit too into this stuff. Should be saved for its own thread.

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Speaking of TWW, I don't have the Alpha, but I heard the Earthern starting zone was available for testing? How is it so far, based off current impressions?

[Ersula]

This is false. The fabric of the Shadowlands was made at the Sepulcher. The actual realms however were made using the Forge of Afterlives.

Fabric? Like some sort of veil? I think you must be taking bits of metaphorical dialog too literally. But who's to say? Blizzard has never been good at clarifying the mechanics of its lore, and Shadowlands era was the worst at that. I just don't see difference in the first ones hiding Zereth Mortis away the same way the Titans did to the Elemental Planes. And dividing the known universe into a million mini-universes seems overly complicated.

[Cheezits]

It's actually poetic the last build we get any sort of story content until post-raid, we go back to SL talk.

I'm done talking about it other than I would like a prequel book that gets into the characters of the Eternal Ones. It would sell like shit and contain probably massive spoilers for the rest of WoW so it won't happen, but I think there is some potential there.

[Joshuaj]

Fabric? Like some sort of veil? I think you must be taking bits of metaphorical dialog too literally. But who's to say? Blizzard has never been good at clarifying the mechanics of its lore, and Shadowlands era was the worst at that. I just don't see difference in the first ones hiding Zereth Mortis away the same way the Titans did to the Elemental Planes. And dividing the known universe into a million mini-universes seems overly complicated.

I'll say this as the last thing regarding this topic rn, but there's a difference between what the veil represented and what the fabric of the Shadowlands represents. One is a barrier (Or better yet, a wall with a gateway inside it) the other is the very foundation. And the Elemental planes are different cause it is likely that the Titans took from something that already existed, similar to the Dream, while Zereth Mortis straight up made it. That is the biggest difference between the Titans and the Progenitors. The Titans ordered what was there (for the most part), while the First Ones made the things for the Titans to order. Also, the whole "dividing into millions of universes" thing wouldn't matter anyway, since there's only 6 cosmic realms with unique veils and infinite layers stacked onto both the Realms and veils, as well as a multiverse that only consists of 1 true timeline.

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It's actually poetic the last build we get any sort of story content until post-raid, we go back to SL talk.

I'm done talking about it other than I would like a prequel book that gets into the characters of the Eternal Ones. It would sell like shit and contain probably massive spoilers for the rest of WoW so it won't happen, but I think there is some potential there.

I would actually like a book regarding that tbh.

I hope Midnight has a book discussing Light and Shadow's different viewpoints of the Cosmos.

[KainneAbsolute]

Another alternative is that the Titans wanted to cleanse Azeroth of all influence or force and make it A-Zereth. All life, death, void and spirit go to the surface, while Azeroth stays at the core.

At this rate, the World trees seem bad because they open access to the core of Azeroth.

[Joshuaj]

Another alternative is that the Titans wanted to cleanse Azeroth of all influence or force and make it A-Zereth. All life, death, void and spirit go to the surface, while Azeroth stays at the core.

At this rate, the World trees seem bad because they open access to the core of Azeroth.

Why would they want to make Azeroth a Zereth? And isn't the point of a Zereth that it's the origin point of something? Unless Azeroth serves as the Dark Beyonds starting point, making a Zereth is practically useless.

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Also, World Trees such as Elun'ahir are inherently bad to the Titans as they see Life's influence as "chaotic" in nature, which makes sense considering Life serves an opposing function to Order.