The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Foolicious]

Imagine having an overarching end game campaign that is about the Legion trying to siphon the parts of the Titan's souls that were send on Azeroth. You could have used the Warrior campaign with Odyn and made it available to everyone with the Legion trying to kidnap the Keepers in order to get those Titan essences. Maybe they would have gotten at Tyr's grave first and grabbed Aggramar explaining how they managed to corrupt him so fast. And ofc that would explain why Wrathion was nowhere; he'd been abducted to grab Aman'thul out of him and we could have found him in a cell in Antorus.

Looking back its really edivent that argus was a last minute addition. I'm sure if they just stuck with the original plan it would have been a better story. But that didn't lead to sylvanas being the main character so legion lore suffered because of that.

[Makabreska]

Looking back its really edivent that argus was a last minute addition. I'm sure if they just stuck with the original plan it would have been a better story. But that didn't lead to sylvanas being the main character so legion lore suffered because of that.

Argus, the headquarters of BL, was the last minute addition in expansion that was meant to finally deal with BL?

[Enrif]

Except this is correct for the point at which you have completed.

Sire Denathrius did dispatch you to deal with the defiant forces of the Accuser. He did, and they are defiant. That's a factual statement. The accommodated information later changes your perspective on Denathrius and his intentions, but none of them contradict it.

So, then you agree with my point that the quest summary about magni and the voice is only the story until then. That the voice could be something different is still on the table.

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Argus, the headquarters of BL, was the last minute addition in expansion that was meant to finally deal with BL?

I think, Argus the titan as a final boss was meant, not Argus the planet.

Making Argus the final boss instead of Sargeras was another of Blizzards many plot twists.

[Vakir]

It's "pretentious young man" in my case as well, but I think reducing your interlocutor's problem to pretension is uncharitable and tacky. Just because people dislike a modern trend doesn't mean they're trying to project that they're "born in the wrong generation" or anything of that stripe—the trend can just be stupid in any age.

You aren't the case here. Don't confuse this for disrespect. I'm targeting them because they never actually back up or defend their position. Show up, give wildly awful take, leave. Not the case in your history. Especially when they are framing it as a generational thing when it's just objectively wrong.

You can validly be concerned, I'm just saying, there's not a lot to support it going that route, and being frustrated with the possibility isn't anywhere near the same problem as coming in, making a blanket statement, and then fucking off without having the stones to argue for it, lol.

Presently, yes, that's the case, even if they are still trying to create pointless and artificial moral ambiguity in the Light. I was talking about a wider fad I worry is starting to intrude, not something specific to the setting as-is.

As @Makabreska said, it's a tool, and it kinda always has been. Even the Naaru are pretty explicitly benevolent because it says so in third-person omniscient supplementary materials. That just means benevolent from their perspective, obviously. Honestly, Illidan didn't consent to Xe'ra and rejected it, for example, but he'd still probably be more effective if he took on the power of a high-end Naaru on top of everything else and still wouldn't be a world-conquerer after for no reason.

They're more likely to have us fuse with Azeroth to punch Sargeras in the face in an anime showdown at the end of TLT than they are to have the Light be an antagonist, not the least of which is them being pretty explicit about the Light vs. Void conflict going down, their golden child being a Light paragon, and the setting's current creative figurehead a paladin main.

So, then you agree with my point that the quest summary about magni and the voice is only the story until then. That the voice could be something different is still on the table.

No, that's literally not what I'm saying.

My point is that nothing in that Revendreth summary is incorrect. Whether it's at 3/10 or 10/10 for chapters, the information saying "Denathrius sends us to..." is not incorrect. Us opposing Denathrius is an addition, but it doesn't change the facts of what he did earlier in that summary.

Meanwhile, if the same thing is saying the Radiant Song is Azeroth very explicitly, the only way to change that would be to go backwards and retroactively change what it actually said, which breaks the rules of how they do this. They'd be more inclined to say "Magni shared with us a theory that the Radiant Song might be Azeroth."

Your reading comprehension is so, so bad.

I think, Argus the titan as a final boss was meant, not Argus the planet.

Making Argus the final boss instead of Sargeras was another of Blizzards many plot twists.

Argus being the final boss is a "plot twist" the way that Necron being the final boss of Final Fantasy IX was a "plot twist." It's not, it's a complete swerve with no prior setup. In Argus' case, it's a concession to not have us defeat Sargeras to preserve his mystique while still giving us a major threat.

We know it's a last minute addition because Chronicle Vol 1. establishes that Azeroth is the last world soul that Sargeras is worried about after cleaving everything else possible, yet Argus not only has a world soul but is corrupted by Sargeras, which contradicts his original motivations. Same with the Dark Pantheon despite stating the Titans are dead.

These are retcons. They can retcon that the Radiant Song is the manifestation of all of Rhonin's fused hemorrhoids tomorrow if they wanted, but retconning a major plot beat established during Alpha is pretty fucking unlikely. Changes to say, Gorgrond, weren't like that.

[justwatching]

I really wonder if we will see thinks like Remix and Fated seasons during the trilogy. Would people be disappointed if we do? I am sure the most likely answer on what Remix people want next would be Legion.

I think given some of the hints we see from datamining(Illidan thing and recolors) there is almost certainly something happening with TBC soon.

[Xilurm]

The best thing about the Titans is and was all the moments we visit their facilities. I didn't even start in Vanilla and yet Uldaman is one of the most memorable dungeons for me. Just makes the imagination fire up. Then there's Ulduar with its music.

I really hope that they stay mostly hands off. I really don't want them to be like "oh they've joined the party now and are part of the main cast." Yeah I know we're supposed to see them again in TLT but there has to be a better way than ruining all of the mysticism.

I assume we're going to ask Algalon to summon them, like he was going to in Wrath, except this time they know we are capable of great things so they won't nuke the planet the moment they arrive and instead will work with us to solve the issue, whatever that is. Just hoping they don't work too closely with us, like the dragons did in DF.

[Vakir]

I think given some of the hints we see from datamining(Illidan thing and recolors) there is almost certainly something happening with TBC soon.

Illidan thing?

[justwatching]

Illidan thing?

I'm too lazy to dig it up but there are some indications they are doing something with him.

[huth]

Argus being the final boss is a "plot twist" the way that Necron being the final boss of Final Fantasy IX was a "plot twist." It's not, it's a complete swerve with no prior setup. In Argus' case, it's a concession to not have us defeat Sargeras to preserve his mystique while still giving us a major threat.

Necron was much, much worse. It literally only shows up after what should have been the final boss with no explanation whatsoever and then poofs back out of the story immediately after. It's just one extra fight that has no business being there.

Argus at least had an actual story presence, even if it was just in the last patch of Legion. We know it is there before we face it, we have a reason to do so and unlike Sargeras, we wouldn't just be fighting his little toe.

[Vakir]

Necron was much, much worse. It literally only shows up after what should have been the final boss with no explanation whatsoever and then poofs back out of the story immediately after. It's just one extra fight that has no business being there.

Argus at least had an actual story presence, even if it was just in the last patch of Legion. We know it is there before we face it, we have a reason to do so and unlike Sargeras, we wouldn't just be fighting his little toe.

Maybe a bit of an extreme example, but there's no denying that Argus is loosely a "twist," especially in the vein of saying the World Soul being something other than what literally every single piece of information, including subtitles and the actual zone summaries, is saying.

[Super Dickmann]

I assume we're going to ask Algalon to summon them, like he was going to in Wrath, except this time they know we are capable of great things so they won't nuke the planet the moment they arrive and instead will work with us to solve the issue, whatever that is. Just hoping they don't work too closely with us, like the dragons did in DF.

I doubt there's any risk of the latter. The Dragons in WoW have always had absolutely 0 mystique, even before they all linked their minds to recite the tag line to Fast and Furious. The Titans on the other hand have historically had the opposite portrayal, barring as said, a single boss fight that as we talked last page isn't really a hurdle to a better portrayal.

[Enrif]

No, that's literally not what I'm saying.

My point is that nothing in that Revendreth summary is incorrect. Whether it's at 3/10 or 10/10 for chapters, the information saying "Denathrius sends us to..." is not incorrect. Us opposing Denathrius is an addition, but it doesn't change the facts of what he did earlier in that summary.

Meanwhile, if the same thing is saying the Radiant Song is Azeroth very explicitly, the only way to change that would be to go backwards and retroactively change what it actually said, which breaks the rules of how they do this. They'd be more inclined to say "Magni shared with us a theory that the Radiant Song might be Azeroth."

Your reading comprehension is so, so bad.
.

"Denathrius send us to to xyz. Oh Denatrhrius is actually working with the jailor!!

"Magni says Azeroth told him stuff, assuming the voice if from Azeroth. It happens to be the truth that the Voice wasnt from Azeroth but from xyz!"

Same thing. The story in the early stages never tells the full picture, but sets up assumptions. If they are subverted or not later on is another question. But claiming the stuff after the very first quest is the truth that never changes is folly.

[Vakir]

"Denathrius send us to to xyz. Oh Denatrhrius is actually working with the jailor!!

"Magni says Azeroth told him stuff, assuming the voice if from Azeroth. It happens to be the truth that the Voice wasnt from Azeroth but from xyz!"

Same thing. The story in the early stages never tells the full picture, but sets up assumptions. If they are subverted or not later on is another question. But claiming the stuff after the very first quest is the truth that never changes is folly.

How?! How is that the same thing?!

It doesn't say "Denathrius, a trustworthy and completely benign individual, sent us to deal with the Accuser." It just says "Denathrius." What it says doesn't change later, because the information is still technically true.

Denathrius sending us isn't directly related to the new information of him working for the Jailer. Same thing with the rebels attacking our carriage. It still happened. Nothing is altered or reworded in light of us working with Draven.

Magni awoke with new insight into the Radiant Song. Azeroth has been trying to warn us that Khaz Algar, a titan installation from legend, is in danger. Dalaran will teleport to the island to defend it.

Not "Magni awoke with a theory into the nature of the Radiant Song." Not "He believes that Azeroth is the one trying to warn us that Khaz Algar is under attack."

It's explicit.

When you complete a new chapter in the leveling process, they add information, but they never retroactively change it. Even if you go back after learning in-character that Denathrius is a bad guy, even though it's known to the player long before we even go, the actual wording doesn't change, because it doesn't change how Denathrius is described. It's just a factual recounting about what happened.

And that's, again, having to assume that this ON TOP OF subtitles and the audio descriptions for the visual impaired in the reveal trailer are lying. Which would basically be a supreme dick move to, you know, anyone with a disability.

Seriously. Get help. I refuse to believe you're this bad at reading and interpreting basic information. This has to be the most stubborn, pride-based insistence I have seen in a while. It's on par with those two guys in the Star Citizen thread.

[Nymrohd]

The best thing about the Titans is and was all the moments we visit their facilities. I didn't even start in Vanilla and yet Uldaman is one of the most memorable dungeons for me. Just makes the imagination fire up. Then there's Ulduar with its music.

I really hope that they stay mostly hands off. I really don't want them to be like "oh they've joined the party now and are part of the main cast." Yeah I know we're supposed to see them again in TLT but there has to be a better way than ruining all of the mysticism.

I assume we're going to ask Algalon to summon them, like he was going to in Wrath, except this time they know we are capable of great things so they won't nuke the planet the moment they arrive and instead will work with us to solve the issue, whatever that is. Just hoping they don't work too closely with us, like the dragons did in DF.

Honestly I'd want just ONE of them (say Golganneth) to show up and then in the max level campaign Iridikron shows his hands and KILLS them. Then the rest of them show up down the line fully intent on reoriginating the planet. We split the vote (Eonar, Aggramar on our side, Norgannon, Aman'thul wanting to wipe us, Khaz abstaining), Aman'thul decides to let Sargeras get a vote and at the end of the mess we have killed Aman'thul, Norgannon leaves for Order planning revenge, Sargeras is off to create a new plan for ominicide and we have Eonar, Aggramar and Khaz'goroth on our side. That way you can have final raid in Ulduar were Aman'thul has placed the rest of the Pantheon on lockdown until he can get Sargeras there and part of the raid encounters could be trials of the Titans (so they are testing us in combat to see if we are worthy)

My other concept was that we found out that yes, the Titans did imprison Azeroth and program her for Order BUT they did it because when they woke up they practically destroyed their planetary shells and everyone on them. And they "found out" (could be a lie) in Zereth Ordus that this could be avoided through this trapping process, sort of like a C-section for a planet? So do we let them continue controlling the planet or do we let it get born and we all get killed (well the champions can hop off planet but everyone else around . . .)

[Raetary]

"Denathrius send us to to xyz. Oh Denatrhrius is actually working with the jailor!!

"Magni says Azeroth told him stuff, assuming the voice if from Azeroth. It happens to be the truth that the Voice wasnt from Azeroth but from xyz!"

Same thing. The story in the early stages never tells the full picture, but sets up assumptions. If they are subverted or not later on is another question. But claiming the stuff after the very first quest is the truth that never changes is folly.

Its funny you use Denathrius as an example, as if Denathrius' betrayal wasn't also another case of dramatic irony where we knew from the get go that he's in fact a villain.

And also, no Magni isn't "assuming" anything.
He's directly communing with Azeroth and telling us so.

[Vakir]

Its funny you use Denathrius as an example, as if Denathrius' betrayal wasn't also another case of dramatic irony where we knew from the get go that he's in fact a villain.

And also, no Magni isn't "assuming" anything.
He's directly communing with Azeroth and telling us so.

At this point it's not even a failure to understand on his part. It's digging heels in out of embarrassment.

"Denathrius sent us to deal with the Accuser" is a factual statement whether at the beginning or at the end of the Revendreth campaign. It is very carefully worded, alongside Draven attacking the carriage, to still leave the possibility open that we won't side with him in the end, despite these being explicit and factual events that happened.

"Azeroth has been trying to warn us that Khaz Algar, a titan installation from legend, is in danger" suddenly being incorrect later would be the complete opposite of his example. They could very easily have worded it as "Magni believes that Azeroth has been warning us" and they didn't. Deliberately.

It's so dumb.

[Nymrohd]

Did anyone really not immediately see that the Liberace Vampire was a villain?

[Samin]

Did anyone really not immediately see that the Liberace Vampire was a villain?

I might have bought it as "things are different in the Shadowlands" if they made any attempts to establish that. Instead we got "the bad guys are the bad guys" in Bastion and the inevitable and painfully obvious betrayal in Maldraxxus. The obvious villain was going to be a villain.

[Vakir]

Did anyone really not immediately see that the Liberace Vampire was a villain?

Seriously, the animated short flat out made that clear even if you didn't watch the standard BlizzCon panel where they said "this guy the first end boss."

I think whether it's intended to be surprising or not is immaterial, though. It's possible to word something carefully enough to make it technically true. "Insight" and "has been trying" without any vague qualifiers are factual in how they're presented.

...plus subtitles. Plus audio descriptions for the visually impaired. Plus Occam's Razor. Plus common sense. Plus the name of the damn saga.

ALL of that needs to be thrown out for it to work.

[Super Dickmann]

Did anyone really not immediately see that the Liberace Vampire was a villain?

He's in not one but two pre-release cinematics where it shows he's an antagonist. It's not just that it's not subtle, it's that it's not intended to be subtle. It's like @Raetary says, dramatic irony. We the players know he's evil, this isn't a Teron or Drakuru situation, it's the characters who don't.