1. #72501
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    It was fucked because all the souls were going to the Maw? Yes, and she contributed A LOT to that.
    And Illidan killed scores of innocent people to convince the Legion to induct him. It's strange WoW has this extreme the ends justify the means mentality, but that's what happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Souls didn’t get a say in where they went and not enough family’s were together, that’s about it. The maw wasn’t involved yet.
    It was, because even though everyone wasn't going to the maw yet, Zovaal showed her the maw when he made his pitch. He led her to believe every forsaken was going to the maw even though it was just because he already dominated her soul because she was killed by frostmorne. Part of Sylvanas was already in the maw because of Frostmorne, just like Uther's soulshard. It's why Uther was getting visions of the Maw.
    Last edited by Ersula; 2024-06-03 at 02:13 PM.

  2. #72502
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    It was, because even though everyone wasn't going to the maw yet, Zovaal showed her the maw when he made his pitch. He led her to believe every forsaken was going to the maw even though it was just because he already dominated her soul because she was killed by frostmorne.
    Nan that was the old lore he doesn’t say all forsaken would go there in the novel jsut that the arbiter sent her there.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  3. #72503
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Nan that was the old lore he doesn’t say all forsaken would go there in the novel jsut that the arbiter sent her there.
    To which a person could infer would also happen to the Forsaken.

    I feel like we're getting away from the topic which was why Iridirkon is not as chill as Wrathion.

  4. #72504
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    To which a person could infer would also happen to the Forsaken.

    I feel like we're getting away from the topic which was why Iridirkon is not as chill as Wrathion.
    I mean you can infer that but it’s not an actual part of the pitch.

    And Iridirkon fails the chill test because unlike Wrathion we doesn’t have a legitimate point of view with him not having any reason to hate the Titans at all so far and what he’s willing to inflict on Azeroth being worse then what the titans work resulted in.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  5. #72505
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Hahahahaha. You are aware that both Algalon and Xera (or even the Scarlet Crusade and Uldaman if you want to go back to fucking classic) were done when Metzen was still there? These plots are not subversive, it's what they were all along.
    The Light can be used for evil and the Light is inherently an evil, dominative force are two completely different things.

  6. #72506
    Quote Originally Posted by Raetary View Post
    The Titans didn't tell us anything.
    Our in-universe knowledge on Azeroth being a Titan came from Magni and Alleria, as well as our very very direct confrontation with Argus.



    I'd say the opposite.
    World Souls are Titans, but Titans as comsic creatures are likely just not tied to Order at all, but rather sentient confluences of vast cosmic potential.

    I think Order just managed to snag Aman'thul first, either deliberately or by chance, who then in turn ordered the rest of the Pantheon when found.
    What do you think is the Order Pantheon then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    The Light can be used for evil and the Light is inherently an evil, dominative force are two completely different things.
    You do realize that the Light isn't inherently evil either, yeah? To assume that would be to completely miss the point of these forces.

    Seriously, some of y'all need to actually play the damn game or look shit up.

  7. #72507
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    Always difficult to say how much of TWW was even actualized when DF itself was still in its concept stage. Personally I think any sort of subversive "Titans are evil" or "the Light is evil" is swiftly dropped and will never been seen again with the changing of the guard.
    Metzen had been back at Blizzard almost a year before TWW was revealed. Just because Metzen likes the titans as characters doesn't mean he's against portraying them dubiously. He liked Garrosh & you see where that went.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    You do realize that the Light isn't inherently evil either, yeah? To assume that would be to completely miss the point of these forces.
    We're getting into the juiciest discourse of all: Gentlemen, how would you define evil?
    Last edited by Ersula; 2024-06-03 at 02:59 PM.

  8. #72508
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Nan that was the old lore he doesn’t say all forsaken would go there in the novel jsut that the arbiter sent her there.
    Tbf here, even IF that were still the case, I doubt Zovaal would want to tell Sylvanas that the souls of her people are damned to the Maw no matter what, due to them being touched by Frostmourne, or at the very least the Scourges' influence.

    Reminder, he was trying to bring her to his side.

  9. #72509
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    Tbf here, even IF that were still the case, I doubt Zovaal would want to tell Sylvanas that the souls of her people are damned to the Maw no matter what, due to them being touched by Frostmourne, or at the very least the Scourges' influence.

    Reminder, he was trying to bring her to his side.
    He didn't explain that part obviously. He tricked her. That was the whole point. The entire universe was broken. He just didn't let her know it was largely broken because of him.

    But existentially & mortally, her & her army, the forsaken were in the same boat, so to speak.

  10. #72510
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Metzen had been back at Blizzard almost a year before TWW was revealed. Just because Metzen likes the titans as characters means he's against portraying them dubiously. He liked Garrosh & you see where that went.
    We're getting into the juiciest discourse of all: Gentlemen, how would you define evil?
    What do you mean "how do you define evil"? If you have any form of malicious intent, then I'd definitely consider that to be evil.

    All 6 forces may see eachother in a negative light, or in a positive light, but fundamentally,they see neither good or evil. They simply wish to spread their influence across the Cosmos.

    Hell, even the Jailer, who tbf was seen as malicious by his fellow Pantheon members for going against the Cosmic design of the Progenitors, was fundamentally still spreading Death's influence in his own way, and he still wanted what he thought was best for the Cosmos. And in his eyes, if the Cosmos isn't willing to unite, then he'll force them into 1 rule. His rule, for he believes his rule will save them from the 7th.

    I'm not saying that's a good thing. Hell, to us, that's fucking horrible, but to him, torment and chains are required for ultimate success.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    He didn't explain that part obviously. He tricked her. That was the whole point. The entire universe was broken. He just didn't let her know it was largely broken because of him.

    But existentially & mortally, her & her army, the forsaken were in the same boat, so to speak.
    I...I just said that lol.

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    Idk, I just hate the idea that the Titans aren't the Pantheon of Order. That just feels so fucking dumb and kinda ruins multiple expansions of lore.

    What I WOULD like however is the idea that the Titans are in the Beyond for a specific reason, and that while Azeroth is a Titan, she is not the last of them. In fact, my theory goes so far as to say she was the first of the Progenitors children.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Remember these words from years back: "she is not the last, but the first". And notice how the Cosmic Pattern has a lot of seeming links towards Azeroth? Also also notice how the Titans like to take a LOT from the Progenitors seemingly? Mmhmmmm

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    I don't think she is a First One, but I doubt she is the Last Titan

  11. #72511
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    You do realize that the Light isn't inherently evil either, yeah? To assume that would be to completely miss the point of these forces.

    Seriously, some of y'all need to actually play the damn game or look shit up.
    I never said it was?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Metzen had been back at Blizzard almost a year before TWW was revealed. Just because Metzen likes the titans as characters doesn't mean he's against portraying them dubiously. He liked Garrosh & you see where that went.
    Not denying that at all. They've always been portrayed as sort of impersonal creators who only really care about Azeroth for their own means. That also doesn't mean they will straight up end up being raid bosses.

  12. #72512
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    I...I just said that lol.
    I said it first. And you missed it completely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    I'm not saying that's a good thing. Hell, to us, that's fucking horrible, but to him, torment and chains are required for ultimate success.
    Yes, but Illidan operated under the same mentality & the narrative frames him as good. Illidan, Sylvanas, Zovaal & Wrathion all had this rationality, while Iridikron just wants vengeance.

    If "malice" is the only defining factor, why are Sylvanas & Zovaal framed negatively while Wrathion & Illidan are not? Is it because they succeeded in what they were trying to do? Is Wrathion off the hook because it was an accident or because the people of azeroth ultimately succeeded at a goal he really didn't help with at all?

  13. #72513
    Quote Originally Posted by Raetary View Post
    Both of these guys have had benevolent end goals, the protection and preservation of Azeroth, safeguarding it from the Legion and Void threats.
    They are both just reckless and had terrible plans that blew up in their face.

    Iridikron literally sold the world to the Void, consequences be damned, just in an effort to enact vengeance on the titans.
    Except he didn't sell the world to the Void.

    That is clearly not his goal because the whole thing of the Primalists is that the world(soul) should stay untouched.

    Iridikrons goal is just as noble and essentially a different flavour of Illidans and Wrathions goal: Don't try to claim our world for yourself, you big cosmic power.
    Last edited by Makorus; 2024-06-03 at 03:16 PM.

  14. #72514
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Except he didn't sell the world to the Void.

    That is clearly not his goal because the whole thing of the Primalists is that the world(soul) should stay untouched.
    ??? The Primalists never directly worked for Iridikron & he never made this distinction. That was the point of discourse between Iridikron & Vyranoth: Iridikron & Fyrakk are fine destroying the planet, they just want revenge on the Titans. His goal of destroying the titans has nothing to do with reversing their influence on Azeroth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Iridikrons goal is just as noble and essentially a different flavour of Illidans and Wrathions goal: Don't try to claim our world for yourself, you big cosmic power.
    At no point does Iridikron say this. This is Vyranoth's goal & its why she betrays them.
    Last edited by Ersula; 2024-06-03 at 03:21 PM.

  15. #72515
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Right. Damn, if only there was another dragon who did things that cost hundreds and thousands of lives for a larger pay-off in the end yet is generally liked by the player base and actively allied with the player
    If you haven't noticed yet that Iridikron doesn't give a shit about anybody but himself, i'm not sure how to help you.

    Wrathion acted specificially to protect the world, even if his plan was stupid. Iridikron acts purely out of selfish desires.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Except he didn't sell the world to the Void.

    That is clearly not his goal because the whole thing of the Primalists is that the world(soul) should stay untouched.

    Iridikrons goal is just as noble and essentially a different flavour of Illidans and Wrathions goal: Don't try to claim our world for yourself, you big cosmic power.
    Yes he did. And he didn't care because he doesn't give a shit about Azeroth. If you haven't noticed, the primalists are deluded fools who just think they're helping while actively making things worse, too.

    Iridikron's goal is not noble and it isn't what you think.

  16. #72516
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    So, it seems like they did add another doggo mount entry to retail a few days ago?

    https://x.com/keyboardturn/status/1794532412619190775

  17. #72517
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    Tbf here, even IF that were still the case, I doubt Zovaal would want to tell Sylvanas that the souls of her people are damned to the Maw no matter what, due to them being touched by Frostmourne, or at the very least the Scourges' influence.

    Reminder, he was trying to bring her to his side.
    Well we already know it’s hot the case due to both the scourge members in maldruxxus and Uther so it would be a weird thing to being up any way as Sylvanas would see it as a lie once she started looking into there main enemies.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  18. #72518
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Well we already know it’s hot the case due to both the scourge members in maldruxxus and Uther so it would be a weird thing to being up any way as Sylvanas would see it as a lie once she started looking into there main enemies.
    For Sylvanas, Kel'thuzad not being in the maw would just further the point that the entire universe is fundamentally broken.

  19. #72519
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    For Sylvanas, Kel'thuzad not being in the maw would just further the point that the entire universe is fundamentally broken.
    Sure it would but it would also prove the jailer was lying to her if he said all undead went to the maw.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  20. #72520
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Sure it would but it would also prove the jailer was lying to her if he said all undead went to the maw.
    I said Forsaken. Because if she was going to the maw for what she did as their faction leader, they would also be going there. Actions Sylvanas would definitely feel are defensible.

    Placing Frostmorne on Azeroth & killing Argus were not done by Zovaal & nobody knew of the extent he was manipulating Sargeras so she would not have been able to see past his deception.

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