The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I said Forsaken. Because if she was going to the maw for what she did as their faction leader, they would also be going there. Actions Sylvanas would definitely feel are defensible.

Placing Frostmorne on Azeroth & killing Argus were not done by Zovaal & nobody knew of the extent he was manipulating Sargeras so she would not have been able to see past his deception.

That would be an even easier lie to see through and be at odd with the other things he was trying to convince her of as there were always forsaken that didn’t see eye to eye or go along with her and if your whole faction could get sent to the afterlife due to agreeing with the actions of your leader tons of family’s would togather and there would be no problem with how the arbiter was doing things.

All of the forsaken going to the maw just isn’t a thing for why she joined the jailer.

[Joshuaj]

I never said it was?



Not denying that at all. They've always been portrayed as sort of impersonal creators who only really care about Azeroth for their own means. That also doesn't mean they will straight up end up being raid bosses.

Yes you did.

To quote: "Always difficult to say how much of TWW was even actualized when DF itself was still in its concept stage. Personally I think any sort of subversive "Titans are evil" or "the Light is evil" is swiftly dropped and will never been seen again with the changing of the guard."

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I said it first. And you missed it completely.Yes, but Illidan operated under the same mentality & the narrative frames him as good. Illidan, Sylvanas, Zovaal & Wrathion all had this rationality, while Iridikron just wants vengeance.

If "malice" is the only defining factor, why are Sylvanas & Zovaal framed negatively while Wrathion & Illidan are not? Is it because they succeeded in what they were trying to do? Is Wrathion off the hook because it was an accident or because the people of azeroth ultimately succeeded at a goal he really didn't help with at all?

No. We said the exact same thing. I said the Jailer didn't want to tell Sylvanas these things cause he wanted to bring her to his side. You made the same point but elaborated on it further. No idea what you're tryna debate here.

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Also, Wrathion and Illidan do their things based off their moral compass. Sylvanas does the exact same thing. We just happen to see Wrathion and Illidans views as beneficial to us and Azeroth, while with Sylvanas...well...not so much.

These guys see good and evil and for some of them, we see their views as just, while.for others we tend to disagree.

Zovaal doesn't see good and evil. He wishes to spread his influence on the cosmology in his own way, and if he has to break the rules of the Cosmos in order for the Cosmic Pattern to endure, then he'll see it through. Doesn't matter if he lies or not cause he doesn't see it as evil or good.

[Ersula]

Zovaal doesn't see good and evil. He wishes to spread his influence on the cosmology in his own way, and if he has to break the rules of the Cosmos in order for the Cosmic Pattern to endure, then he'll see it through. Doesn't matter if he lies or not cause he doesn't see it as evil or good.

So if his thesis was correct & that something else is going to come along & destroy the entire universe, would that make him good or evil? Does that imply evil survives while good is doomed to utter annihilation? If he sincerely believes that was the only way to save the universe, how can that be evil?

That would be an even easier lie to see through and be at odd with the other things he was trying to convince her of as there were always forsaken that didn’t see eye to eye or go along with her and if your whole faction could get sent to the afterlife due to the actions of your leader tons of family’s would togather and there would be no problem with how the arbiter was doing things.

All of the forsaken going to the maw just isn’t a thing for why she joined the jailer.

I think you're focusing on semantics of something that wasn't even the point of the original comment. Sylvanas finding one forsaken that didn't end up in the maw would not falsify anything the Jailer originally presented. "This one singular person was sent to the appropriate afterlife so I guess nothing needs fixing" is not a thought that would go thru Sylvanas' brain.

[SilverLion]

So if his thesis was correct & that something else is going to come along & destroy the entire universe, would that make him good or evil? Does that imply evil survives while good is doomed to utter annihilation? If he sincerely believes that was the only way to save the universe, how can that be evil?
I think you're focusing on semantics of something that wasn't even the point of the original comment. Sylvanas finding one forsaken that didn't end up in the maw would not falsify anything the Jailer originally presented. "This one singular person was sent to the appropriate afterlife so I guess nothing needs fixing" is not a thought that would go thru Sylvanas' brain.

The bigger issue is more or less that evil in fiction and evil in the real world have different definitions. For example, Sauron wanted to Order all of Middle Earth. He wanted perfect order, no chaos, but according to the author, he is definitively evil. In Tolkien's world, evil is defined by a lack of admittedly very human morals, an unwillingness to see beauty, and an arrogance to decide others fates.

But by real world standards all of those things could be debated. So instead of trying to insist on whether or not a character is evil, maybe antagonist or villain is a better phrasing.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

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I think you're focusing on semantics of something that wasn't even the point of the original comment. Sylvanas finding one forsaken that didn't end up in the maw would not falsify anything the Jailer originally presented. "This one singular person was sent to the appropriate afterlife so I guess nothing needs fixing" is not a thought that would go thru Sylvanas' brain.

It wouldn’t be a singular forsaken it would be all of them. Hundreds would have died aligning completely with her but aren’t in the maw and it would make no sense for one’s that didn’t agree with her would go there any way. And again this whole notion undermines what the jailer actually got her to join with which was that family’s didn’t get to be together.

If you just ended up in the same place as your faction leader more family’s then not would he togather.

[Makabreska]

New short story:

https://www.wowhead.com/news/new-war...lin-way-342544

[Vakir]

Zovaal doesn't see good and evil. He wishes to spread his influence on the cosmology in his own way, and if he has to break the rules of the Cosmos in order for the Cosmic Pattern to endure, then he'll see it through. Doesn't matter if he lies or not cause he doesn't see it as evil or good.

What about unbiased main materials calling him an ancient evil?

What about his malicious and aggressive smirking in the 2nd CGI trailer?

What about the dozens of times he says various threatening gestures with an outward hostile tone like "YOUR SOUL SHALL SUFFER FOR ETERNITY" or the like?

What about the constant psychological and physical torture that literally does nothing of value to subjects who have literally no other purpose left?

He literally gave Sylvanas her soul back to overwhelm her with guilt for no reason other than as a "fuck you." Nothing about that decision made any sense outside of spite.

If the distant and almost cosmic horror like indifference was the intended vibe, that would almost be an interesting direction for the villain, but it's not how he's presented at all. He's the standard growly bad guy with at least some proneness to sadism.

[Ersula]

It wouldn’t be a singular forsaken it would be all of them. Hundreds would have died aligning completely with her but aren’t in the maw and it would make no sense for one’s that didn’t agree with her would go there any way. And again this whole notion undermines what the jailer actually got her to join with which was that family’s didn’t get to be together.

...which wouldn't matter to the plan because anyone killed would eventually be reborn into new, better lives once the universe gets re-created, or so she is led to believe.

What about unbiased main materials calling him an ancient evil?

No such thing as an unbiased perspective in this setting. Promotional materials have also described Illidan the same way. Yeah, Zovaal is evil but if as the writer you can't consistently explain why, something's wrong.

[Joshuaj]

So if his thesis was correct & that something else is going to come along & destroy the entire universe, would that make him good or evil? Does that imply evil survives while good is doomed to utter annihilation? If he sincerely believes that was the only way to save the universe, how can that be evil?
I think you're focusing on semantics of something that wasn't even the point of the original comment. Sylvanas finding one forsaken that didn't end up in the maw would not falsify anything the Jailer originally presented. "This one singular person was sent to the appropriate afterlife so I guess nothing needs fixing" is not a thought that would go thru Sylvanas' brain.

It's not evil. That's my whole.point. He simply seeks to benefit the universe in his own way. The other Eternal Ones may call him malevolent (which could be deemed as evil, but idk if the Eternal Ones see that as "evil" and more so just fucked up) due to him going against the Cosmic Pattern and it's laws, and us mortals may put a sense of morality on his plans. But the Jailer doesn't see it that way. He, as a Cosmic being, would fundamentally not put things to good and evil. Even Denathrius, who is a full on supporter of Zovaals plans, does not see Good and Evil. He simply wants Death to be the dominant power in the Cosmology, which is kinda the status quo for a lot of these forces.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

...which wouldn't matter to the plan because anyone killed would eventually be reborn into new, better lives once the universe gets re-created, or so she is led to believe.

It wouldn’t matter to the plan, but she also wouldn’t believe in said plan if every thing the jailer told her was an obvious lie.

She was already sceptical when he made his pitch if it was obvious he was bullshitting her she never would have joined.

[Joshuaj]

What about unbiased main materials calling him an ancient evil?

What about his malicious and aggressive smirking in the 2nd CGI trailer?

What about the dozens of times he says various threatening gestures with an outward hostile tone like "YOUR SOUL SHALL SUFFER FOR ETERNITY" or the like?

What about the constant psychological and physical torture that literally does nothing of value to subjects who have literally no other purpose left?

He literally gave Sylvanas her soul back to overwhelm her with guilt for no reason other than as a "fuck you." Nothing about that decision made any sense outside of spite.

If the distant and almost cosmic horror like indifference was the intended vibe, that would almost be an interesting direction for the villain, but it's not how he's presented at all. He's the standard growly bad guy with at least some proneness to sadism.

He wasn't smirking in the second CGI trailer. He's growling. He's pissed.

Also, the things calling him an "ancient evil" simply refer to the fact that he is the antagonist and that us mortals on Azeroth would consider him as such due to what he wants for Azeroth and the cosmology as a whole.

And I explained that Zovaal sees the suffering of mortals as a means to an end. To him, mortals are simply anima suppliers, and tormenting them brings out more anima for his twisted machines and whatnot.

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I feel kinda dirty trying to explain the Jailer in any way...

[Vakir]

No such thing as an unbiased perspective in this setting. Promotional materials have also described Illidan the same way. Yeah, Zovaal is evil but if as the writer you can't consistently explain why, something's wrong.

Something being wrong with SL's writing? Say it isn't so.

Find me a third person omniscient account calling Illidan an ancient evil that isn't the discredited RPG alignments that predate anything. You could make an argument that he is that in TBC, but it's pretty universally agreed that the characterization of the Illidari trio was dogshit in that hence the walk back. But nothing independent.

He's introduced that way from the outside perspective of the Wardens and the like, but it's absolutely valid for them to feel that way.

You also conveniently ignored everything else. Preds isn't actually making a valid argument and you know that - he's trying to invoke more nuance than there actually is because he thinks the Jailer is cool.

[Foolicious]

New short story:

https://www.wowhead.com/news/new-war...lin-way-342544

Is that an official confirmation for undermine/goblin patch content? I would say so.

[Xilurm]

Seems like all the short stories from that book are gonna be free after all.

[Joshuaj]

Seems like all the short stories from that book are gonna be free after all.

They confirmed that most of them would be free. Only 1 story is book-specific...which imo is stupid.

[Vakir]

He wasn't smirking in the second CGI trailer. He's growling. He's pissed.

He absolutely is. There's obviously anger in the expression based on his imprisonment but we already knew that.

Also, the things calling him an "ancient evil" simply refer to the fact that he is the antagonist and that us mortals on Azeroth would consider him as such due to what he wants for Azeroth and the cosmology as a whole.

If you can give me an example of a totally third person depiction that does the same that's consistent with prior characterization, do so. Otherwise you're just burying your head.

And I explained that Zovaal sees the suffering of mortals as a means to an end. To him, mortals are simply anima suppliers, and tormenting them brings out more anima for his twisted machines and whatnot.

The industrial scale of it goes beyond what's efficient considering about half the souls we're trying to save in Torghast almost immediately dissolve. This isn't some highly calculated set of decisions, and non-dominated characters that aren't depersonalized to the point of being automatons means that there's a method of doing all of this that doesn't involve it.

That means it has less to do with him finding the shortest line to the goal and more to do with, at best, personal convenience.

Also, explain Sylvanas (besides it being a contrivance to keep her in the story). That was a spiteful gesture. It didn't further his goals and, in fact, was directly involved in his downfall.

He's either sadistic or stupid. Pick one.

Even anger, justified or not, means a deliberate sense of spite that extends outside of a cosmological goal beyond good or evil because it implies some element of malicious intent, even if it's reactive.

I feel kinda dirty trying to explain the Jailer in any way...

I know you mean it in a "he's such a terrifying and cool character and that's why empathizing is hard!" way, but I think the feeling you're otherwise experiencing here is shame and it is appropriate.

[Zardas]

What about unbiased main materials

Like who, or what ?

[Super Dickmann]

New short story:

https://www.wowhead.com/news/new-war...lin-way-342544

Christ, this is wretched.

[Joshuaj]

Something being wrong with SL's writing? Say it isn't so.

Find me a third person omniscient account calling Illidan an ancient evil that isn't the discredited RPG alignments that predate anything. You could make an argument that he is that in TBC, but it's pretty universally agreed that the characterization of the Illidari trio was dogshit in that hence the walk back. But nothing independent.

He's introduced that way from the outside perspective of the Wardens and the like, but it's absolutely valid for them to feel that way.

You also conveniently ignored everything else. Preds isn't actually making a valid argument and you know that - he's trying to invoke more nuance than there actually is because he thinks the Jailer is cool.

Quit talking like you're an Old God dude. Ersula is fully capable of speaking their mind on things. You trying to ignore my points for some weird asf assumption doesn't help anyone.

[Ersula]

It wouldn’t matter to the plan, but she also wouldn’t believe in said plan if every thing the jailer told her was an obvious lie.

She was already sceptical when he made his pitch if it was obvious he was bullshitting her she never would have joined.

You're talking like she could just waltz up to Zereth Mortis during Wotlk & fact check everything he said when he's spilling prophecies like "The Legion will invade & A new Titan will die"