The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Lorgar Aurelian]

My argument is that a brand new never seen before zone is more exciting than a spruced up two decades old zone with a similar amount of content.

This is going to be subjective, using BFA as an example I was far more interested in the revamped Darkshore and Arathi with less content then any of the new zones baring Druskvar and they were miles ahead of any of the shadowlands zones.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

A very significant portion of the playerbase plays cyclically. They only sub for new stuff. Launching an expansion where the draw isn't someplace new to go explore, but a pretty version of a place you've already been is a harder sell. It's an even harder sell when you then have to convince those cyclical players to come back for patches that aren't adding new places to go explore, just more stuff to those zones they already knew beforehand and played through again at launch.

The issue is that this is an appeal to immediate attraction for casual players, not the long-term sustainability of the game and franchise. Although perpetual growth may be appealing on the surface, it is ultimately dangerous to indulge in it at the expense of creating excess content bloat, a loss of investment in the story as it becomes even more of a Ship of Theseus than it already is, and a reduction of hype for oncoming expansions to spinning the wheel as to which will be chosen of a set of increasingly-contrived invisible continents or magical realms barely distinguishable from features in another IP. Although this certainly suggests that it is what Blizzard will do, as they typically prioritize preservation of short-term growth over long-term sustainability in general (see: how they handle reputation-damaging crises), it is certainly not what is healthiest for the game.

The fact is, what looks exciting on paper isn't always what is legitimately enjoyable. You're jumping from "casual" to "gerbil", assuming that intermittent gamers are entirely unable to enjoy something they are already familiar with to some extent or another.

Because while dragonriding in EK/Kalimdor is a neat gimmick, and is great for a few very specific places (the Hyjal region, Khaz Modan) most of those continents are relatively flat forest with short trees that really aren't built for Dragonriding the way the Isles are, unless the topography and verticality of zones is completely redone.

What about Ohn'ahran Plains? You know, the wide-open space in the Dragon Isles?

I haven't gone through STV, classic aside, in seven or eight years. I still know exactly what that zone is, and the exact layout of the terrain and Booty Bay having a seawall and ZG being repurposed into a friendly hub or taken over by Steamwheedle and turned into a goblin stronghold isn't going to make the zone itself more interesting than a hypothetical brand new Tel'abim jungle with goblin outposts or whatnot. Nor will such things give the zone the sort of verticality and dynamic terrain that more modern expansions possess and that makes Dragonriding so enjoyable.

But this is only your own testimony. How can you assume this is really the case for all players? Besides, if we've been reduced to scraping the barrel for zones like Tel'abim on account of the lack of potential new locations, this ought to indicate that we're running out of space for new additions. While Avaloren may have generated some hype for a new landmass, this is not a trend that I can see reliably continuing indefinitely.

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I agree.

I'd like to think the Incarnates are just intended to be simple villains but the small hints of the Black Empire not being 100% evil and Titans not 100% the good guys make me think they are going for some big reveal moment in story. The fact they are trying to be obscure about it makes think its being done for shock value and to be subversive. Which has literally never worked for them in the past. So I don't know why they would be treading down that road again. Especially after the how it ended in the past two expansions.

Ironically, if the bit re: the Black Empire does come to be, it would strike me as significantly less nuanced than the conflict with the Primal Incarnates. However, I don't see the issue with the Watchers being Orwellian, utilitarian, and overbearing, given that's always been their M.O. since we found out that the Titans have a kill switch embedded in Azeroth and that they inexplicably designed the Dragon Aspects around a self-fulfilling prophecy to fulfill some inscrutable objective.

[Kiivar86]

Aww crud, infinite dragon skins are from the megadungeon after all. Had kinda hoped. Feh. Well, guess I'll hope for it when it becomes split in two heroics.

Anyway new event in the end of August and early September, "Secrets of Azeroth," Sounds neat.

[Revamp Man]

Aww crud, infinite dragon skins are from the megadungeon after all. Had kinda hoped. Feh. Well, guess I'll hope for it when it becomes split in two heroics.

Anyway new event in the end of August and early September, "Secrets of Azeroth," Sounds neat.

that makes me think revamp is coming but...its blizzard and that is a ton of work

[bloodmoth13]

I agree.

I'd like to think the Incarnates are just intended to be simple villains but the small hints of the Black Empire not being 100% evil and Titans not 100% the good guys make me think they are going for some big reveal moment in story. The fact they are trying to be obscure about it makes think its being done for shock value and to be subversive. Which has literally never worked for them in the past. So I don't know why they would be treading down that road again. Especially after the how it ended in the past two expansions.

I had a theory that the incarnates were what dragons were supposed to be.
Draconic is an ancient language spoken by the oracle in zereth mortis, they represent a cosmic power but the aspects we know serve order and the titans, which speak titanic.

So the aspects have essentially been enslaved by an adversary.

Who draconic is supposed to serve though is another question, in that questline saezurak spoke in titanic, draconic, demonic and shath'yar. Dragons have zero connection to 'death', light is very unlikely, nature is a big maybe but i suspect that its the 7th power that the one broker guy theorized, and that power is the elements.

Dragons were meant to guard the elements and be elemental lords, the incarnates are what they are supposed to be, the titans took the young aspects and swayed them to their side.

I think that nozdormu will discover this and recognize what the true end time is and this will drive him to become murazond, titans ordered the timeways to suit them but the void lords try to open alternate lines that could suit them. Murazond will ally with the void to explore alternate endings to the one the titans have crafted. The titans will likely attempt to get azeroth at all costs, possibly wiping out all life and antagonistic influence in one go to claim azeroth for order (reorigination device in lore since wrath).
Also i suspect the world souls arent nascent titans but open souls that any cosmic power can claim, its just that the titans have claimed a monopoly and refuse to consider that other powers deserve representation, and perhaps the fact that chaos has been denied a true world soul has driven them to become ravenous towards magic since they are desperate to get their own 'god' so to speak. Sargeras was a titan and ruled chaos using order, the burning legion was very ordered in many ways and was probably a very unnatural state of chaos, which in its more natural and better fed state may be a lot less malevolent.

Id be thrilled if the next expansion was something to do with the realm of order, the time ways etc. Bring in the light with their crusade against alternate timelines and orders shared goal and expand on that narrative. Make murazond the big boss of that one and make him the 'guldan' of this expansion. Make a torghast-esque system that goes through all timeways etc.

My theory might be way off though, there is evidence that suggests dragons are beings of 'life' which imo would be pretty lame. we will see, i liked the idea of the base terrestrial elements being represented as a cosmic force, which would bring more parity between these lofty celestial powers and more tangible powers.

[huth]

The elements are part of the 6 forces. The 7th is outside creation.

The elements are seperate from the cosmic forces. They're an aspect of the material plane, not the cosmic ones.

[Nibelheimy]

I've spent the last couple of nights with this idea on the back burner in my brain about the possibility of an expansion where Murozond drops us back in time to the creation of the black empire, just for fun while I'm bored.

For whatever reasons we help either the elemental lords or the old gods on their side of their initial war. Then the expansion ends with us being shown the true actions of the Titans when they got involved that have been hinted are different from what they're telling us.

New time wimey quest line from the ptr I've seen has some quest text, joking about the possible expansion setting saying we'd help the titans battle the old gods in that time period, so I'm not really sure which way they're going with the whole titans lied to us thing.

[Mecheon]

Completely subjective. I prefer to revisit the known. There’s a reason that sequels and franchises do well.

Sequels and franchises have to explore new stuff, though. No one likes those sequels that just re-tell the story of the first movie all over again.

To put it in terms of another franchise I follow, Sonic, we're sick of Chemical Plant and Green Hill being trotted out every game with a new layout. It was neat in Sonic Adventure 2 Battle, Generations and Mania, but we sure didn't need Forces and Frontiers doing it again

This is going to be subjective, using BFA as an example I was far more interested in the revamped Darkshore and Arathi with less content then any of the new zones baring Druskvar and they were miles ahead of any of the shadowlands zones.

And most of the time I spent in Arathi and Darkshore was re-using my decade of knowledge to get perfect rare hunting paths because I had no reason to explore. I already explored those back in Vanilla. I knew what was around and all that mattered was 'how do I get to rare drop the quickest'

Kul Tiras and Zandalar, however? Those I explored and looked around. Because that was new stuff to exploore, things I hadn't seen before, weird little nooks and crannies.

Back in Cata, I cared far more for Hyjal and Gilneas finally becoming accessible (without a very tricky set of jumps) than I did about the world revamp part of it. That's the simple truth of it, people want to experience something new with these expansions so you can't just sell it on a world revamp. Two of the biggest mysteries since WoW's launch becoming accessible was a massive selling point for Cata, a future world revamp would need something similar

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And most of the time I spent in Arathi and Darkshore was re-using my decade of knowledge to get perfect rare hunting paths because I had no reason to explore. I already explored those back in Vanilla. I knew what was around and all that mattered was 'how do I get to rare drop the quickest'

This is again gonna vary from person to person. I killed Mabye 8 rares through out all of BFA in the zones as I’m not a rare hunter and couldn’t care less what they drop. I spent my time exploring the zones looking at the new assets and mobs exploring around and loving it.

The only thing they needed were story lines and quest to put all those new assets to work beyond boring cosmetic and gear farming and then I’d have likely have spent more time in those zones then any of the BFA ones baring again drustvar.

[Hitei]

Completely subjective. I prefer to revisit the known. There’s a reason that sequels and franchises do well.

This is a silly argument. Sequels and franchises typically aren't the exact same thing spruced up.

If anything your argument here should be that remasters/remakes do well. But I would point out to you that remasters are typically designed to entice new people to play the old game not to get people who already owned and have played the game plenty of times to play it again but with nicer visuals; and the best remakes are the ones that are essentially a brand new game that follows the old one's progression rather than just a glorified remaster.

People often even get annoyed if a large portion of a game is pulled directly from an earlier iteration and reskinned.

This is going to be subjective, using BFA as an example I was far more interested in the revamped Darkshore and Arathi with less content then any of the new zones baring Druskvar and they were miles ahead of any of the shadowlands zones.

Honestly I feel like it extends beyond subjectivity. You are perhaps confusing likeability with excitement. I am not arguing that any given new zone is better than an older zone, as I said above, I do not like Zuldazar and I very much like Darkshore. But Zuldazar is a novel experience.

If you take a newborn baby, and show them flash cards with pictures on them, the newborn will focus significantly more on pictures they have not seen before than on pictures they have. It's very objectively hardwired into the human brain to pay attention to a new thing longer and more carefully than a familiar thing, because new things are potentially harmful or helpful and a familiar thing is a known.

You say that you were more interested in revamped Darkshore than most of the BfA zones, and obviously, I'm not you, so I have no idea, maybe that's the case. But my follow-up question, to actually gauge if that is truly the situation or if this is a case of you retroactively assuring yourself that one held your interest more than the other because you just like it more would be to ask you:

Do you remember without going back to check or looking at pictures, what revamped Lor'danel looks like? There's a few features in particular that really stand out, do you have an idea what they are? If you think on it, can you picture the revamped Lor'daenl in comparison to the Cata version? How well did it actually hold your interest? If I ask you to picture Brennadam, the big town in Stormsong Valley (are you an Alliance player?) can you picture that more clearly than you can picture BfA's version of Lor'danel?

The issue is that this is an appeal to immediate attraction for casual players, not the long-term sustainability of the game and franchise. Although perpetual growth may be appealing on the surface, it is ultimately dangerous to indulge in it at the expense of creating excess content bloat, a loss of investment in the story as it becomes even more of a Ship of Theseus than it already is, and a reduction of hype for oncoming expansions to spinning the wheel as to which will be chosen of a set of increasingly-contrived invisible continents or magical realms barely distinguishable from features in another IP. Although this certainly suggests that it is what Blizzard will do, as they typically prioritize preservation of short-term growth over long-term sustainability in general (see: how they handle reputation-damaging crises), it is certainly not what is healthiest for the game.

I don't really agree, because the long-term sustainability of the game is dependent on both the consistently subbed player and the cyclical more casual one, but I don't really think that changes the issue at hand, because even completely ignoring the "casual player" you're isolating, a typical more committed long term player is still going to be significantly more fatigued by lack of new environments to explore and poke around in an expansion that lacks new places to go.

The fact is, what looks exciting on paper isn't always what is legitimately enjoyable. You're jumping from "casual" to "gerbil", assuming that intermittent gamers are entirely unable to enjoy something they are already familiar with to some extent or another.

I'm not. I'm just saying that it's much harder to get something familiar to be interesting both initially and over a long period than it is to make a brand new thing interesting initially and over a long period. If you put DF-zone-esque content and environmental quality into the Barrens, or STV, or Loch Modan, it's not going to be the same level of engaging. There's a reason why new zone patches are the fondly remembered ones even when the inbetween patches sometimes add very significant features or systems.

What about Ohn'ahran Plains? You know, the wide-open space in the Dragon Isles?

The issue isn't "wide-open space". The issue is that nearly every zone in the old continents is exceedingly flat and not designed with the flow of dragonriding in mind.

Oh'ahran Plains is not flat. It's not even close to it. It's rivers flow through all sorts of height changes, they curve downwards and drop down waterfalls. Its "open plains" are full of hills and mounds and little cliff hills so that you nearly always have a place to be moving downhill from, its quest hubs are often in raised areas and little plateaus. Every zone in the Isles, including Ohn'ahran, is designed from the ground up for dragonriding. They all flow, they're made up of nice curving lines that guide you down ravines and runs. You drop off a cliff or a hill, and there's a path that leads farther down, and farther down, and to a river that drops down, and out to a waterfall that drops down into sea level, but it's along a trench like the one between Thaldraszus and Waking Shore, so you have a whole long cervace to fly along.

The old zones are by and large extremely flat and statically built. You drop off a hill and you're just in a flat part of the zone with no place in particular to go. The river that runs along Westfall is one of the two longest rivers in EK. It starts in the hills of Stormwind, does two(?) waterfall drops in the first 15 seconds down into Elwynn, and then that river is flat the entire length of Elwynn, the entire length of Duskwood and the entire length of STV until it hits a small little drop out into the ocean south of Grom'gol. There is effectively no height or terrain change between Stormwind City and Booty Bay. The entire southern half of the continent is at basically one horizontal level with now downward flow.

So while it's fun to swoop around a place you haven't been able to swoop around, it's not the same quality of dragonriding experience. You have to actively seek out specific places that work well (like Hyjal) rather than in the Isles, where you can drop off almost any little cliff and spend a couple minutes coasting down a whole series of paths until you reach the ocean.

But this is only your own testimony. How can you assume this is really the case for all players? Besides, if we've been reduced to scraping the barrel for zones like Tel'abim on account of the lack of potential new locations, this ought to indicate that we're running out of space for new additions. While Avaloren may have generated some hype for a new landmass, this is not a trend that I can see reliably continuing indefinitely.

Of course, I'm only one person. I'm just saying that unless a revamp is very drastic, I (myself) do not think it will work to sustain player interest the way a normal expansion does.

There are plenty of places for expansions. I merely brought up Tel'abim because it is a zone similar in nature to STV.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/new-qua...-10-1-5-333381

I wonder what it will be, it made quite a buzz in wowhead comments. ^^

What exactly "from the past" will mean.

[Hitei]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/new-qua...-10-1-5-333381

I wonder what it will be, it made quite a buzz in wowhead comments. ^^

What exactly "from the past" will mean.

I'd guess it's just a random unknown appearance for that slot that you don't currently have.

I assume there will be exceptions, or if nothing else, heavy limitations on how many you can farm, since otherwise this would be the absolute best source of getting transmog forever.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Why do you think SL is kinda liked, despite its poor asf story? It's cause the setting was admittedly kinda nice.

What is your sample for this opinion? I have not seen many people express any interest in its setting, and it frankly felt to me like the most alienating—as opposed to merely "alien", which I personally enjoy in fantasy—setting in the game. If we're really to make claims, I'd be more than happy to set up a poll on a Discord server somewhere and see what is preferred.

[bloodmoth13]

I think the Draconic stuff is it's own ordeal. I wouldn't say it's part of the 7th power however. Also, Danuser already explored the Elemental Ring. It's basically on the "lower" end of the Cosmology chart, a step below the higher powers of Light, Shadow, Order, Disorder, Life, and Death. So, overall there are 12 general powers, with 6 Primal Powers, and 6 Cosmic Powers. All forces represent and embody different things across the Cosmology of WoW.

As for the 7th power, that is unknown, and I don't think it has anything to do with the current powers we know of.

I don't see the necessity for a 7th power outside of what I suggested, it's just not going to add to the game without taking from something.
Dragons are already confirmed as an ancient cosmic force and they grew from elements, so it's not too farfetched to think that. If my speculation is wrong then dragons are 100% entities for the realm of life which is predictable with the emerald dream patch that has been datamined, but I think it's a poor fit.
So it's either they are cosmic elemental beings or life beings, my preference is for elemental to raise elemental powers status and to kill off the concept of another 7th cosmic force. As life beings it's meh for me but acceptable.
With my concept though the primalists have an understandable motive and get elevated as a credible threat that expands existing lore without replacing or undermining anything.

[Hitei]

I don't see the necessity for a 7th power outside of what I suggested, it's just not going to add to the game without taking from something.
Dragons are already confirmed as an ancient cosmic force and they grew from elements, so it's not too farfetched to think that. If my speculation is wrong then dragons are 100% entities for the realm of life which is predictable with the emerald dream patch that has been datamined, but I think it's a poor fit.
So it's either they are cosmic elemental beings or life beings, my preference is for elemental to raise elemental powers status and to kill off the concept of another 7th cosmic force. As life beings it's meh for me but acceptable.
With my concept though the primalists have an understandable motive and get elevated as a credible threat that expands existing lore without replacing or undermining anything.

The 7th is implied to not be a normal part of the pattern. It's some secondary existence that threatens the Pattern, which the "song" is meant to oppose and ward against. Nature is just life manifest.

Given the wide spread presence and danger of the devourers (as well as the knowledge that the devourers were created by the First Ones but seemingly went awry and their capability to near effortlessly corrupt Automa, the 7th is probably something akin to oblivion, not the leeching of the void which is "consumption", but instead just total non existence. Un-reality where the other six together form reality.

I really doubt that it's going to be involved in anything soon, one way or the other. It's a force set up to be in opposition to the First Ones and their Pattern, it's something that we'll probably only get vague hints about, not something that's likely to be at the forefront and being used as a force by regular NPCs.

I don't think it's an either or situation, re: dragons. Given that elementals seem to largely exist as a form of primordial life present on all life-bearing worlds, the two might just be the same. That dragons are life-based creatures evolved from the life-based elementals and were corrupted by Order's influence via the Titans.

[Alanar]

Omg elemental expansion that means playable Elemental race/class confirmed?? Surely based off the WC3 firelord. They’d have to have a visage form too because everyone wants to play a pretty elf.

/s

Dont give them ideas.

[Nymrohd]

Elemental Expansion.....

My Magic 8 ball betrays reality by saying Yes.


-_- Jokes aside... I really don't see it being a thing.

Honestly I think that destroying the Elemental plane and restoring the natural order of the Elements before Titanic intervention may be Iridikron's endgame.

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Interesting for the future of the reward system in wow; in 10.1.5 they are expanding the upgrade system to all ilvl 441 gear letting you upgrade it with Aspect Crests to 447. I think we are now reaching a point were there is proper equality in gear access across content types.

[guro-tchai]

was there any discussion about this 10.1.5 thingie?

Portergauge speculates it's from the hypothethical .7 draenei heritage questline. fits, considering that home and heritage kinda revolves around the same theme. however, it's not currently race-restricted and it would be weird to give a universal reward for a racially-specific questline.

alternative is that it's from 11.0 whale edition preorder, accidentaly pushed to the wrong patch. there's already been a hearthstone toy as an expansion bonus in SL and DF, and it is by design for everyone. you might say it's early, but supposedly blizzcon and preorder launch will happen with 10.2/10.2.5 on live and the former is supposed to be pushed to PTR soon-ish.
if that's the case, the shining crusade is all but confirmed. snitch on your local void elves to the nearest light morality police office, Xe'ra is great.

[Nymrohd]

if that's the case, the shining crusade is all but confirmed. snitch on your local void elves to the nearest light morality police office, Xe'ra is great.

To be fair, I'd absolutely snitch on Varodoc. Wouldn't even be ashamed.

[Nibelheimy]

I'd agree with it seeming a bit early for pre-order. Interesting if it is for a heritage quest, I guess if we see anything similar related to Darkspear Trolls it'd be an almost direct confirmation for heritage quests. I'm assuming they'll do Night Elves & Forsaken at the same time, so Trolls would go with Draenei?

Only other thing I could think of would be if they are going to push paladins to all races and wanted to branch out the other races themeologies and this is the first sign of that.