The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Chickat]

It's already been 10 years since the model revamps, as much time had passed from Vanilla until the model revamps. But tbh I don't think we're getting them any time soon.

I don't see them ever happening tbh. By Legion/BFA they settled on the new artstyle and graphics have improved very little since then. This is WoW for the foreseeable future. And it looks fine. Maybe in 10-15 years if WoW is still doing well and WoW 2 isn't a thing, but nothing this decade.

[Gurahk]

As reliable as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west... you can rely on a conversation to derail into Tinkers when Teriz shows up.

There's like 3 or 4 people in here that you should have on your ignore list at all times.

[Santandame]

As reliable as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west... you can rely on a conversation to derail into Tinkers when Teriz shows up.

It’s no different to when the conversation gets derailed by pages and pages by others discussing the Jailer and Shadowlands lore. This is still a speculation thread for the World Soul Saga, and Tinker/Articifer seems the most likely candidate for a new class this saga; whether that be in regards to the Gazlowe presence, Undermine hints, the Earthen’s link to technology, and the Titan aspect of a tech based class. It’s a discussion with meat to it that pertains to The War Within and The Last Titan at least.

Despite some posters issues with them, at least Teriz is civil in his debates (in contrast to a select few who oppose his arguments). I’d rather that then the other guy a page or so back who shows up every so often in an attempt to lord their perceived intelligence and experience with the English language over others whilst also constantly using thinly veiled, barbed insults.

[Cherry123]

And so from spoilers we know almost the entire plot. Surprisingly, TWW narrative is no different from other expansions. We get acquainted with the flora and local population and kick the first Boss without any special SHOCK plot effects. Didn't Blizzard say that the saga should move faster?

[Zers Editor]

And so from spoilers we know almost the entire plot. Surprisingly, TWW narrative is no different from other expansions. We get acquainted with the flora and local population and kick the first Boss without any special SHOCK plot effects. Didn't Blizzard say that the saga should move faster?

It is much shorter in terms of the amount of quest lines used. Previously there were at least 8 per zone. In TWW there are 3 per one zone campaign (five in the max level campaign).

[Houle]

It takes a hell of a lot of headcanon to watch a cutscene where Kil'Jaeden talks fondly about burning the entirety of creation and then gets pissed off that Sargeras hasn't won already as "no no no, Kil'jaeden was secretly just afraid and had to do it!" It takes even more headcanon to read him sending Velen's own son to kill him and or die at his hands, and then later mocking him as "no, he's secretly real regretful and ashamed".

You've misunderstood his dying comments as expressing inner conflict over being evil and that he felt compelled to choose his path, when really it's him expressing regret that he picked the losing side.

No, compared to that the wealth of sides Xal'atath expresses solely in Legion are an ocean trench. You know who also expresses sadness at not being the winning one? Xal'atath. In addition to a bunch of other moods and personality that aren't just barking about doom and burning things, because she actually has a multi-faceted personality like a real individual instead of generic doom villain, or generic doom villain + sad about doom not working out.

Now you are deliberately dumbing down what was said and shown to fit your point. No, he didnt just voice regret over picking the losing side and he wasnt going on about "burning shit" the entire time (besides his boss fight quotes, but lets wait and see about Xals bossfight quotes before taking that into consideration).

In the cinematic he was showing what i said with his face alone. Look at his facial animation when Velen talked, calling him a monster - his face drops and he starts looking sorrowful - until he composes himself and rejects that idea (the idea that Velen was right) and goes into angry denial again. Its called visual storytelling. A characters face tells stories just as much as their words, especially when said characters very face was specifically animated to look a specific way.

And then in the other cinematic, he was straight up admitting that he was ALWAYS envious of Velen. Not just since he accepted Sargeras's offer - always. And he doesnt say that he definitely picked the losing side - he admits the possibility that he was wrong and Velen was right. That he may have made a mistake in joining Sargeras out of the fear that was inevitably going to win. And again, facial expressions. Why did you think they animated his face like they did after Velen touched his forehead? Just for the lulz?

Its not headcanon, its just surprisingly much more subtle than WoW usually is. Characters dont always literally spell out what they are feeling yknow.

Wow, imagine that, someone with one of the two primordial, first cosmic forces considers those two primordial first forces and their war that has been going since the start of reality to be the actual thing with stakes, and doesn't consider the universe-spanning group of demons that lost to a small army, and their leader who is batshit terrified of the Void's existence to be much of a threat. Do you know why the Legion isn't serious? Because it doesn't even have the capability to actually attack the Void. It's entire gambit is just heading off one initial very literal "throw things at the wall" strategy.

You do know the Void isnt one of the most primordial forces in the universe anymore, and from what we known so far, also not older than the others anymore, right? Thats outdated Chronicles lore and was retconned with the introduction of the First Ones and the reveal that they created all the cosmic forces as equals in their respective Zereths (as bad as that story is). The Light and the Void are now just 2 forces like the others, who believe themselves to be the pinnacle (also just like the others).

Additionally, the Void didnt have the capability to attack the Legion either, judging from anything weve seen in the story. Their polar opposite, the Light, tried, and didnt get anywhere until we showed up. The most impressive display of a Void invasion weve seen was their destruction of K'aresh - something the legion has done thousands of times.

Even more so, the Voids "military" might was shown in a pretty qustionable light compared to the Legion in SL. That xpac presented us with a past Void invasion in Bastion, and a past Legion invasion in Maldraxxus. Bastion beat the Void back. Maldraxxus, THE military force of the entire Shadowlands, barely beat the Legion back at a "terrible price".

When someone has the humility to think of themselves as little more than a cog in the machine, but believes that one of two fundamental universal properties is the best and doing what it is known for doing, when her bragging basically largely takes the forms of objectively true events like claiming that Elisande is bad at actually using time magic to see the future and is going to ruin her people? I wouldn't call that arrogance. Arrogance is Illidan thinking he could fight a two sided war against the Legion and Sha'tari/Alliance/Horde because he decided Outland was his despite having been chased the fuck out of Azeroth by Arthas and humbled by KJ. It's Garrosh thinking his shitty Kor'kron could fight the entire Alliance and the Horde Rebellion because he was an orc and orcs are amazing. It's not Xal'atath saying that Sargeras is dumb so it's a good thing he recruited the Eredar or praising numerous enemies as great, cunning, and strong.

Lets see:

"Really? These thugs of Sargeras are so interchangeable. This one is good with his axe! How unique." - Implying that the Void doesnt consist of interchangable purple clouds 99% of the time. In other words, arrogant and also hypocritical.

"Long has this ones time been coming. A true servant of the fallen titan, he seeks the doom of all things. As if that would really save them form the Void" - She arrogantly dismisses the entire effort of the Legion as ultimately meaningless, only to be proven wrong immediatly - the Void (and every other cosmic force) almost lost to the Legion multiple times in that very xpac.

"These pretenders play at whispering. Amateurs! I should demonstrate proper technique." - The Shivarra she means were in the process of corrupting the titans (and already succeeded with Aggramar), something the Void was literally described as incapapable of doing. Again, arrogant to the fullest, despite already being proven wrong by that point.

And there are far more examples of this.

If abandoning someone with the assured knowledge that they're going to get out of the situation, per her own words, is your threshold for "straight up unambigous antagonism", that's your threshold. Considering how many often the Horde and Alliance outright attack each other, how many times I've had Millhouse Manastorm attempt to kill me, how Bwonsamdi directly empowered people trying to murder me and then asked for my help in Ardenweald, I really don't consider getting ditched in a trap that amounted to me getting a minor blessing granting useful information as all that antagonistic an event.

Leading a character into a trap and then betraying them to their known enemy (whom they have fought before, Cata says hello) is antagonistic, there is no discussion to have about it. And she didnt have "assured knowledge" that the character was going to get out of it. She strongly believed they would, thats it. The only one who couldve assured her of it wouldve been N'zoth himself - and N'zoth gave her exactly zero assurance. He told her to leave the dagger and the character and gtfo.

Bud, you are putting way too many overcompensating "lol"s in every post to pretend to not be tilted.

Thats just how i write lol. You know what real overcompensation looks like? Having to start off by throwing belittling insults ("shows me you have no idea what you are talking about") and then calling the other person "angry" to artificially make it seem more like youre the one in the right from the start. Thats what people with no real arguments do.

Attempting to reduce her good points to "people just like her and Sylvanas because she's hot" is highly dismissive.

Nope, its just seeing facts for what they are. Also, again, im not reducing her good points. Shes does have potential. But giving a comment on a few bosses and locations does not make her a deep character yet. The only thing that is implying some depth besides "arrogant, charismatic void entity" is her past and what happened with her and the other void creatures during their empire. Which is largely unexplored so far (altho it looks like TWW will start revealing more of that).

Oh and Sylvanas had close to zero good points by the time BFA was half over. She was an inconsistent mess with constantly changing motivations, and that only got worse in SL.

[Ersula]

Nope, its just seeing facts for what they are. Also, again, im not reducing her good points.

So in other words, Xal'atath is Azshara only not as overused. That's downright refreshing for a WoW villain.

[Makabreska]

So in other words, Xal'atath is Azshara only not as overused. That's downright refreshing for a WoW villain.

Also, minus the mountain size ego.

[Xilurm]

And so from spoilers we know almost the entire plot. Surprisingly, TWW narrative is no different from other expansions. We get acquainted with the flora and local population and kick the first Boss without any special SHOCK plot effects. Didn't Blizzard say that the saga should move faster?

Yes, as in not having to wait 10 months between an expansion's last patch and the launch of the next. We're still going to get x.1 and x.2 that will move the story forward with new raids.

[Houle]

So in other words, Xal'atath is Azshara only not as overused. That's downright refreshing for a WoW villain.

Ehhh, id say the most signficant difference is that Xal seems to be a true believer in the void, the void lords and their cause. Azshara only believes in herself and only does stuff to benefit herself. Shes arrogant more on the personal level Hitei meant.

[Ersula]

Ehhh, id say the most signficant difference is that Xal seems to be a true believer in the void,

Are we sure about that? She started the war of the Aqir, causing the end of the Black Empire. I doubt it was an earnest attempt to defeat the Trolls, instead, revenge on the Old Gods who betrayed her. The Void already had control of Azeroth & Xal put a stop to that. If she was a true believer would she snatch Azeroth away from the void for petty revenge?

[Super Dickmann]

Ehhh, id say the most signficant difference is that Xal seems to be a true believer in the void, the void lords and their cause. Azshara only believes in herself and only does stuff to benefit herself. Shes arrogant more on the personal level Hitei meant.

Xal's basically the void with a human face Dimensius in particular, since Blizzard might have finally relearned their lesson with Sargeras of not frontloading the giant angry monster, with her being someone who's happy to talk, first as a dagger and then an elf, making her fit the Nyarlothep-expy that N'zoth should've had, but never did. She's however still someone who's primary goal is to get a giant voidwalker to eat the planet and then everything else and this for its own sake, not because it benefits her as such. Azshara is purely self-interested and their relationships with their respective patrons get this across, Azshara denying and then becoming an enemy of N'zoth and Xal'atath, among gaining power again, immediately trying to bring her own in.

- - - Updated - - -

Are we sure about that? She started the war of the Aqir, causing the end of the Black Empire. I doubt it was an earnest attempt to defeat the Trolls, instead, revenge on the Old Gods who betrayed her. If she was a true believer would she snatch Azeroth away from the void for petty revenge?

The point made repeatedly is that the void isn't really one group working together. All of the Old Gods wanted to eat the planet and use it to spawn the dark titan, but despite ruling said world for umpteens worlds they spent all this time warring with each other for who would get to do it. Xal, what with being heavily implied to be one of them would obviously take the chance to fuck them over, especially since loosing the aiqr and taking out the trolls at the time all the other Old Gods were sealed could easily lead up to her doing the job.

[Houle]

Xal's basically the void with a human face Dimensius in particular, since Blizzard might have finally relearned their lesson with Sargeras of not frontloading the giant angry monster, with her being someone who's happy to talk, first as a dagger and then an elf, making her fit the Nyarlothep-expy that N'zoth should've had, but never did. She's however still someone who's primary goal is to get a giant voidwalker to eat the planet and then everything else and this for its own sake, not because it benefits her as such. Azshara is purely self-interested and their relationships with their respective patrons get this across, Azshara denying and then becoming an enemy of N'zoth and Xal'atath, among gaining power again, immediately trying to bring her own in.

Pretty much, yeah. Shes the Gul'dan. The villain who is grounded enough to face and interact with the player, but in the end just has the goal of bringing in the big cosmic enemy (Sargeras and most likely Dimensius respectively).

[Val the Moofia Boss]

we do you think we can expect another graphical update? even the new models are showing their age. i fear we'll have to wait the end of the worldsoul saga

As in higher polygon racial models? Questionable. This is a MMO where the selling point is very large numbers of models onscreen. GPUs have been giving diminishing returns on performance in games as it becomes apparent that most games are not programmed well enough to keep up. In 2014 people bought three Nvidia GTX Titans to try running Skyrim at max graphical quality and only got 20 FPS. In 2024 people with 4080 rigs try running Skyrim at max graphical quality and can still only get 20 FPS. WoW is based off of the Warcraft 3 engine which is almost three decades old (WC3 began development in 1998).

The biggest visual improvement Blizzard could make to WoW is not anything to do with the art assets, but rather changing how the game is presented to the player. Right now, players have to zoom their cameras far out to get a bird's eye view of all of the AoEs and things they can click on. So players aren't getting to appreciate other characters or the animations. If the game had a more effective camera system that was up close like Granblue Fantasy Relink, then a lot of people would take in the art better. Though I guess better animations/character movement could also help a lot, rather than the instant movements we have that are divorced from a sense of weight or direction. Nicer ability effects too, such as for Frost Death knight. Playing the MoP remix with the tinker gems makes it apparent just how lackluster a lot of the base DK animations are.

[Ersula]

The point made repeatedly is that the void isn't really one group working together. All of the Old Gods wanted to eat the planet and use it to spawn the dark titan, but despite ruling said world for umpteens worlds they spent all this time warring with each other for who would get to do it. Xal, what with being heavily implied to be one of them would obviously take the chance to fuck them over, especially since loosing the aiqr and taking out the trolls at the time all the other Old Gods were sealed could easily lead up to her doing the job.

Then that seems like she's fighting for her own sake, not the void. When her actions delivered the planet into the hands of the Titans for much longer than the Black Empire even existed. Instigating a war between the Trolls & Old Gods while the Titans are currently messing around on the planet seems to primarily help the Titans.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Why would that matter? They wouldn't need new semantic animations because every race already has crafting/hammering/shooting animations. How does it make sense to give a mechanical class to Vulpera over Forsaken, the famously mad-scientist race?

How does everyone feel about this aesthetic? Does anyone else suspect this seems to be a generic tech style that would fit every race? It's both masculine enough for the rustic races & elegant enough for the sophisticate races.

Not a fan. Looks rather generic, and something more out of Ebberon than out of WoW.

[THEORACLE64]

Some of you don't half talk some absolute nonsense in here

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I disagree. Again, the tech concept is going to be going through the filter of the WC3 Goblin Tinker, so if Draenei are going to be part of the tech class, you're looking at something like this;

Looks too close to paladins which we already have.




If you're going to go backpack, have stuff that isn't weapons players are already wielding. Flamethrowers, buzzsaws, rayguns, Dr. Octopus arms, etc.

[Super Dickmann]

Then that seems like she's fighting for her own sake, not the void. When her actions delivered the planet into the hands of the Titans for much longer than the Black Empire even existed.

The two aren't mutually exclusive, because the void is all about the self, hence why I got on about how even when they ruled the world the Old Gods spent the entire time fighting each other. Making sure it's her, or the power she represents (an interesting angle I doubt they'll take is to have Xal'atath be an extension of Dimensius for easier interaction rather than an entirely separate entity) that takes the world soul also advances the goals of the capital V Void.

[Cheezits]

Azshara is infinitely more interesting than Xal. Xal is just a good "lieutenant" villain who is menacing and entertaining like Gul'dan and Denathrius (until we hear he has more going on than just doing what Zovaal wanted)

Azshara and Kil'Jaeden were also villain lieutenants but have more going on to their characters. Hence why I look forward to their return (KJ is unlikely but could come back with Denny in some way, even if just flashbacks). I also assume if Darkhan comes back he will have a similar characterization.

Jury is out on Dimensius but I have a feeling that between Sarg, Zovaal and him they will do something interesting with his motivations beyond "me hungry."

Iridikron is also a good powerful villain who isn't anyone's lieutenant or butler. Maybe the only one besides Garrosh?