The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Sondrelk]

I confess that I am not precisely inclined to take seriously as an incarnation of the Cosmic Horror genre—nor even as a threat in a High Fantasy setting—a threat which can be most precisely and effectively summarized as "nagging brain-squids".

Sounds like an issue of a lacking imagination. Imagine not being able to sleep from nightmares. Not being able to know for sure if what you are thinking is your own thoughts or some attempt at manipulation.
Combine this with the WoW version of the void, which includes seeming constant visions of the future, likely or otherwise, and it's no wonder people go insane.

Beyond that there is also the clear tradeoff thing of succumbing further to madness by giving in to the voices. Gaining massive power, but losing even more of your sanity in return.
Imagine someone like Neltharion. Centuries of whispers telling him what he wants to hear. Promising him the greatness he believes he deserves, the horror of failure, and boundless power to enforce his vision of the future. Even more so when you consider the Void preying on his weaknesses. In his case the belief that he is capable of harnessing the void rather than falling to it.

[micwini]

Simple people fall for advertisements and here people are discussing how whispers from the void could drive people insane.
This forum really can be wild at times.

[Shadowferal]

I confess that I am not precisely inclined to take seriously as an incarnation of the Cosmic Horror genre—nor even as a threat in a High Fantasy setting—a threat which can be most precisely and effectively summarized as "nagging brain-squids".

[Sondrelk]

Eyy! Page 400! That's quite a neat number. Hopefully we get some juicy news to really cement this occassion soon.

[Lady Atia]

Guys, we had a new build recently and all the talk here is again about some lore stuff that has nothing to do with the current speculation? Can we maybe go back on track again?

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Stiven from wowhead posted pictures of Alextrasza without her horns and armour today, and for me it looks like it's actually not using the classic blood elf skeleton? Could see it used as another body type option down the line similiar to Dracthyr?



Also I think Sindragrosa's cinematic visage model also uses a different build than the classic blood/void elves.

(oh, and we defo need new HD hairstyles for the older races that are on par with Alex's hair here lol)

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Guys, we had a new build recently and all the talk here is again about some lore stuff that has nothing to do with the current speculation? Can we maybe go back on track again?

- - - Updated - - -

Stiven from wowhead posted pictures of Alextrasza without her horns and armour today, and for me it looks like it's actually not using the classic blood elf skeleton? Could see it used as another body type option down the line similiar to Dracthyr?

Also I think Sindragrosa's cinematic visage model also uses a different build than the classic blood/void elves.

(oh, and we defo need new HD hairstyles for the older races that are on par with Alex's hair here lol)

Both are basically the BE model, but in higher resolution since these are cinematic models. Alexstrasza's model is more edited, the tiny waist most likely so pronounced to make it easier for her corset armor to not clip.

But yeah, since these are cinematic models, very unlikely they have anything to do with new playable models.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Sounds like an issue of a lacking imagination. Imagine not being able to sleep from nightmares. Not being able to know for sure if what you are thinking is your own thoughts or some attempt at manipulation.
Combine this with the WoW version of the void, which includes seeming constant visions of the future, likely or otherwise, and it's no wonder people go insane.

Beyond that there is also the clear tradeoff thing of succumbing further to madness by giving in to the voices. Gaining massive power, but losing even more of your sanity in return.
Imagine someone like Neltharion. Centuries of whispers telling him what he wants to hear. Promising him the greatness he believes he deserves, the horror of failure, and boundless power to enforce his vision of the future. Even more so when you consider the Void preying on his weaknesses. In his case the belief that he is capable of harnessing the void rather than falling to it.

This is a nice perspective on it, but it's simply not what we've been shown. The prospect of moral temptation and degradation of sanity emerging from the inability to distinguish ones own thoughts and assumptions from an external malefactor is definitely one which could induce insanity and lead one right into the hands of the Void, but this isn't what we've been given. What we've been given are whispers, at a fairly sensible volume and rate, which effectively boil down to "haha we're manipulating you. Manipulation works best when we tell you we're manipulating you." The only case in which I think the "whispers" approach has been correctly-executed thus far has been with Y'Shaarj, where you do see some elements of the kind of thing you're imagining, with extreme and visceral depictions of the future and a legitimate degree of horror and uncertainty underlying them. It is possible to imagine Y'Shaarj successfully inducing a change of spiritual allegiance, if not outright inducing insanity, through his efforts. Without a strong framework to realign oneself, it is sensible to imagine someone turning to him on account of his statements. However, I have not been able to perceive this in any of his kin, especially N'Zoth. C'Thun comes closest, but his own whispers sound most precisely analogous to intrusive thoughts, and not exceptionally terrible ones at that, and they typically come in a fairly slow rate that would realistically make recovery from the thought very easy. N'Zoth is outright terrible about this, and I have been entirely incapable of taking him seriously as a villain after hearing the following quote:

"With a whisper, the Earth Warder bent to my will. Who are you to resist me?"

N'Zoth gleefully explaining how he's such a super-good manipulator he manipulated this other guy effortlessly does not give me confidence in his capacity to fundamentally change people, because he's outwardly explaining that's what he's doing, and leaving no question that his manipulations are not for your own benefit. If I were to put myself in the shoes of anybody hearing that, I would think "wowie! You'd sure have to be really stupid to trust this guy or do what he wants! Now you know he's trying to manipulate you actively, so you'll just have to learn how to dismiss his manipulations to the best of your ability." Anybody should realistically just undertake after becoming aware of this to monitor their behavior and dismiss the whispers entirely. How is one supposed to take prophecy from a being that is self-admittedly trying to undermine you and drive you insane seriously? How should one be easily tempted if they know for absolute certain that N'Zoth only has the worst intentions in mind? And keep in mind this is the kind of content that emanates from him in his own realm. Imagine being so much more separate from N'Zoth; what kind of influence should something like that have, then?

As I said, this strikes me most as an especially dedicated nag. Theoretically, I could see N'Zoth and his buddies being played as devil-figures if they were to wave people's own desires in front of them, but that requires inducing a state of being that suggests that one is greater than their better nature, and that following them will legitimately be rewarding in some capacity or another, not plainly and directly telling someone you're manipulating them. They'd have better luck encouraging people's worst facets, and that's precisely why I think Y'Shaarj is the only such cases of the whispers working on any kind of meta level, and I'm of the mind it's doomed to fail if you have the Black Empire's proxies and leadership frequently espousing their limitless influence and announcing their means of operation. This could be so easily fixed from a slight shift away from endlessly reusing the word "whispers" until it no longer sounds like a word, such as in the case following:

"(W)e will journey to the shores of dragon lands, to the blessed isle where the Worldbreaker first embraced the truth."

Alternatives could include:

"(W)e will journey to the shores of dragon lands, to the blessed isle where the Worldbreaker first embraced self-determination."

or

"(W)e will journey to the shores of dragon lands, to the blessed isle where the Worldbreaker first rejected the sick structure of the Titans' creation."

Wouldn't these be the kinds of people who sincerely want to see the Black Empire renascent? Why wouldn't they spin their falling to temptation as a good thing? Why wouldn't they do as wicked sorts are most inclined to and present their willing fall from grace as some kind of reassertion of themselves over something they believe only constrains them? This portrayal simply doesn't work for me.

To sort of summarize my problem with the portrayal of the Void, these are the two approaches that are generally suggested:

(1) The angle of moral temptation.
(2) The angle of Cosmic Horror.

These two are, in actuality, opposite angles. Moral degradation emerges, typically, from self-delusion; a pathetic belief that one is somehow beyond morality, or that morality is entirely designed to constrain one. This angle of things was represented well with Y'Shaarj, but it is executed poorly elsewhere, such as in the very quote that started me on this train of thought/impotent rant. Though I typically enjoy villains representing temptation, since we all are subject to it, much more work must be done to rectify the portrayal of the Black Empire's self-destructive rationalizations, because although temptation is not a fault of oneself, falling into it is always a deliberate choice to some degree or another. The other angle, the approach taken in Cosmic Horror can come in two forms: either it emerges from some kind of revelation, or at least a revelation that seems sensible and typically isn't just based on what one wants to believe, or it comes from exposure to something which simply is not compatible with our modes of thought, which potentially also comes with a sanity-rending revelation that drives the subject after they have been rendered insane, or at least are no longer capable of perceiving things as those who have not been exposed to the horror do. The reveries that emerge from either of these are often delusional, but the initial revelation is typically true: that mankind can grow beyond its ken, that there is something far beyond our placid isle of ignorance, the crushing irrelevance of our transient civilization. Of course, I do think the nature of these revelations must be very different in WarCraft, and I'm unsure if exposure to Cosmic Horror elements would be sufficient to drive one insane in that kind of setting. In fact, the Lovecraftian breed of Cosmic Horror does only work on its own when you read it from the perspective of the kind of person so utterly repulsed by anything alien that he called penguins "grotesque", so I'm definitely inclined to suggest the latter breed of the Cosmic Horror approach. This is also where the Cosmic Forces system would be most compatible with the kind of things the Void could expose one to. The example I typically lean towards is that the purely-gradient modes of thought (wholly rejecting is/isn't dichotomies) employed by Void beings is simply incompatible with our anthropoform modes of thought, which are typically very binary in nature. In this case, the revelation accompanying the sanity-rending experience is that the entire perspective one has had on the universe—that it exists in truths and falsehoods exclusively—is not all-encompassing, and puts the entire framework one may have into question.

However, I could also see the "sanity-rending revelations" side of things manifesting in the more traditional sense; since we've irrevocably trapped ourselves in the structure of the Cosmic Forces, the implications of this idea—which I personally distaste—could be employed by the Void to threaten the sanity of those it communicates with.

As an addendum, I could also see another approach to your suggestion, which would be to play up the nature of the Black Empire's proxies as cultists by taking inspiration from how real-world cults brainwash their victims. This would be closest to what you envision, and I think I may have overlooked that this was your initial suggestion, or at least a variant thereof. Sleep-deprivation, isolation, starvation etc. could be employed, though I am not sure if that would be the method most suitable for the objects of a cult rather than a cult in itself.

[huth]

This is a nice perspective on it, but it's simply not what we've been shown.

Remember the Wrathion fight in Ny'alotha? That's the level of messing with your perception we're looking at.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Aesthetically-pleasing, and excellent executions of Cosmic Horror on an aesthetic level. However, I'm inclined to ask the relevance of this to my complaints about the shallow and ineffective narrative incarnation of Cosmic Horror as nagging brain-squids, which is an increasingly prominent problem in poorly-executed Cosmic Horror.

[huth]

Aesthetically-pleasing, and excellent executions of Cosmic Horror on an aesthetic level. However, I'm inclined to ask the relevance of this to my complaints about the shallow and ineffective narrative incarnation of Cosmic Horror as nagging brain-squids, which is an increasingly prominent problem in poorly-executed Cosmic Horror.

I'm getting the feeling you never had to deal with incessant nagging.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Remember the Wrathion fight in Ny'alotha? That's the level of messing with your perception we're looking at.

Profoundly visceral visual and auditory hallucinations work wonders, and are another instance of the Void's influence working well. The issue is that it has thus far only been used twice to mislead us, and only once in any kind of narratively-relevant capacity when Wrathion and Sabellian were misled in Aberrus. Otherwise, this has hardly been executed to its fullest potential; there have been no efforts to mislead us in the long-term, and this capacity has not been used to wreak uncertainty. If it were employed in the right places, at the right times, at unpredictable intervals, it could certainly be a far more effective representation of what we're told the Void does to you than a few ominous portents in purple text.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Profoundly visceral visual and auditory hallucinations work wonders, and are another instance of the Void's influence working well. The issue is that it has thus far only been used twice to mislead us, and only once in any kind of narratively-relevant capacity when Wrathion and Sabellian were misled in Aberrus. Otherwise, this has hardly been executed to its fullest potential; there have been no efforts to mislead us in the long-term, and this capacity has not been used to wreak uncertainty. If it were employed in the right places, at the right times, at unpredictable intervals, it could certainly be a far more effective representation of what we're told the Void does to you than a few ominous portents in purple text.

Thats cause you think it wouldn't bother you. It would. Any annoying person in your life just imagine them as flesh eldrich monsters who can now whisper you about shit you don't even know. Its worse for people who are vulnerable(Say a Human who lost his family recently to the Shadowlands stuff and is alone. Perfect for Old God Shennigans).

[huth]

Profoundly visceral visual and auditory hallucinations work wonders, and are another instance of the Void's influence working well. The issue is that it has thus far only been used twice to mislead us, and only once in any kind of narratively-relevant capacity when Wrathion and Sabellian were misled in Aberrus. Otherwise, this has hardly been executed to its fullest potential; there have been no efforts to mislead us in the long-term, and this capacity has not been used to wreak uncertainty. If it were employed in the right places, at the right times, at unpredictable intervals, it could certainly be a far more effective representation of what we're told the Void does to you than a few ominous portents in purple text.

Because we tend to deal with the source in short order and don't really give them the opportunity. What you're missing here is that we have never really been the target of those attacks in any meaningful capacity, so our experience is not relevant.

Thats cause you think it wouldn't bother you. It would. Any annoying person in your life just imagine them as flesh eldrich monsters who can now whisper you about shit you don't even know. Its worse for people who are vulnerable(Say a Human who lost his family recently to the Shadowlands stuff and is alone. Perfect for Old God Shennigans).

Repeating the same nonsense over and over is a tried and true manipulation technique for a reason, commonly employed in abusive relationships the world over.

[Berkilak]

Profoundly visceral visual and auditory hallucinations work wonders, and are another instance of the Void's influence working well. The issue is that it has thus far only been used twice to mislead us, and only once in any kind of narratively-relevant capacity when Wrathion and Sabellian were misled in Aberrus. Otherwise, this has hardly been executed to its fullest potential; there have been no efforts to mislead us in the long-term, and this capacity has not been used to wreak uncertainty. If it were employed in the right places, at the right times, at unpredictable intervals, it could certainly be a far more effective representation of what we're told the Void does to you than a few ominous portents in purple text.

You can only allude to cosmic horror for it to be effective as a concept. The moment the author or artist details it is the moment that they renders the unknowable incomprehensible as mundane and trite.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

You can only allude to cosmic horror for it to be effective as a concept. The moment the author or artist details it is the moment that they renders the unknowable incomprehensible as mundane and trite.

I don't quite find that to be the case. The fashion in which Lovecraft handled it often bordered on fantasy in some stories and was sometimes not very subtle, such as in Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath. More recently, one can cite Bloodborne as an example of an interesting piece of fiction with at least aesthetic Cosmic Horror elements that functions perfectly fine with all of its features wholly in the spotlight.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

What are we arguing about now? Is someone saying the Old Gods lost their Cosmic Horror nature? Or??? Cause that's a weird argument if I've ever heard one.

What I'm saying is their execution has been underwhelming thus far. Really, the only one I think worked exceptionally well was Y'Shaarj.

[Ateo]

I'm getting the feeling this user has no personal experience with people succumbing to mental illness such as schizophrenia which is what the basis of all cosmic horror is.

The fear of losing yourself to the voices.

[Nymrohd]

I'm getting the feeling you never had to deal with incessant nagging.

My mother is really an Old God. I knew it. Do the Void Lords also want grandkids?

[Hitei]

I don't quite find that to be the case. The fashion in which Lovecraft handled it often bordered on fantasy in some stories and was sometimes not very subtle, such as in Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath. More recently, one can cite Bloodborne as an example of an interesting piece of fiction with at least aesthetic Cosmic Horror elements that functions perfectly fine with all of its features wholly in the spotlight.

But Bloodborne doesn't actually do cosmic horror. I find it really odd you'd nitpick WoW's depiction as not manifesting Cosmic Horror's mind-warping incomprehensibility poorly but then in the same argument praise BB for just using the genre as an aesthetic flair.

If anything you're sort of just reinforcing Berkilak's point: that actually rendering the unknowable completely defeats the purpose. The cosmic entities in Bloodborne are glorified invisible monsters, and they only work in the true cosmic horror sense when they are invisible and you are powerless to do anything. When you're going around just hacking them to pieces like they're nothing but big animals it totally fails to actually represent the nature of cosmic horror.

The fashion in which Lovecraft handled it was to basically talk around it, to focus on describing how it wasn't describable. Writing about how things are at "the wrong angle" or musical chords are "otherworldly", to just describe reactions or feelings to the thing instead of the thing itself. But this doesn't really work in video game format, hence Bloodborne just having weird looking monsters that are invisible until they aren't. It's just smoke and mirrors and it falls apart when it's looked at closely. When you realize that the fact that you can see the Great Ones, and that they are just long-armed tentacle things, you also then realize that the logic of them being imperceptible without insight makes no sense at all. There's nothing incomprehensible about them, they are odd looking in the way any generic monster is odd looking and there's no real logical reason why they should've been invisible for being so mind-boggling, because they aren't mind-boggling at all.

Likewise, it is physically impossible to present Old God whispering in a fashion similar to the experience. It is an overwhelming, incomprehensible sensory experience that can't be replicated in a real capcity, because to begin with human sensory experience is a binary. Either a form of electromagnetic radiation falls on the visible spectrum or it is invisible to the human eye. There is no actual visible wild and crazy color beyond human comprehension that will make people go insane, because if it's visible that means its in the limited range of perceptibility.

The closest you can get is to attempt to overload sensory experience instead. Like Langford's Basilisk, or Vantablack, or an audio file which is just a hundred audio clips played at once at full volume. Old God whispers are this. You can't possibly depict continuous, mind-shattering whispers and glimpses of the future that eventually lead, not to tricking a person into thinking the Old gods are good guys or not attempting to manipulate them but instead, to the conclusion that either the person can handle and control the Void/corruption, or that the end is inevitable anyway and there's no choice or its the easiest option. So your two options are to either do continuous half-heart whisperings that annoy the player enough that people just mute or complain until its removed; or to go with the much more enjoyable user experience friendly conceit and just have regular ominous or self-assured occasional whispers as depicted in game.

Personally I think it works fine, as well as any depiction is going to, because they're all just conceits for the fact that an indescribable thing is by definition indescribable.

Also, with regards to persuasion: I think you misunderstand the Void's M.O. It's not a politician or a slimy businessman. It's not lying to try and trick you into taking its side. It exists in a metaphysical state beyond time or possibility. It doesn't need to convince you of anything the same way that it doesn't need to convince the Naaru to fall into Void. The Light is the side that wants to masquerade as righteous and recruit through propaganda. The Void already knows where everything is or can go and is just laughing the whole ride there. I would argue that N'zoth's depiction is the strongest of the primary four Old Gods, because if anything we still aren't quite sure what his real plan is or was, or if it worked, or if he's really dead or if the entire thing was a set up. Did it matter if he kept pointing out he was manipulating us if in the end, for the sake of everyone not dying, we still had to do potentially exactly what he wanted? He wasn't trying to convert us to the church of the Void, he was mocking struggle in the face of inevitability.

Deathwing's final surrender to the Old Gods wasn't about tricks. It was that from the start there was always going to come a time where he desperately needed/wanted that extra power and was going to take the deal. Like Azshara: Did it matter that N'zoth obviously had his own agenda in mind when the options were take the deal or be crushed to death and drown at the bottom of the sea? Alleria knows as well as anyone that the Void is a double-edged sword that requires constant vigilance walking on the knife edge, but she's still gone with it because the other options were losing to the Legion and letting the people she loves die.

[Shadowferal]

The big problem with cosmic horror has always been making something unknowable...relatable. And on that regard the horror can hit you with a double whammy; the voices were never from an external source, it was all from me...or were they? Was I just a puppet, or a plaything...will I ever know the truth? The Hell of uncertainty.