1. #74401
    I am Murloc! Auxis's Avatar
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    So, I may have missed something; do Demo Warlocks still get a doomguard from Doom? I could have sworn I kept seeing this doomguard getting changes in the alpha notes in regards to what kinds of bolts it used (started as shadowbolt volleys, last I saw it was single target SB's), but now Doom is a passive effect as opposed to an active ability, and it summons an imp upon expiry?

    Am I just misremembering this? Did they change it at some point?
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  2. #74402
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    Announcement trailer, obvious zone entrance, datamined race, story hints on beta, build-up starting in DF…
    Where was Neltharion and the Emerald dream in the DF announcement trailer?

    I’d think a raid around stopping goblins from plundering the roots of a world tree is goblin focused.
    No, it's Rootlands focused. Just like stopping Fyraak from plundering the Emerald Dream and the World tree was Emerald Dream focused.


    In the Ringing Deeps. Not too far from where we suspect the rootlands entrance to be if I’m not mistaken.
    Link?

    The Forbidden Reach wasn’t a megadungeon so I don’t know what you’re on about.
    Mechagon was though.


    Kinda like how we fought Legion high command on Azeroth? Or Arthas in EK/Kamildor. Or N’zoth in the vale?
    "Goblins" aren't the Legion, or Arthas, or N'Zoth. These comparisons continue to be terrible.

  3. #74403
    Quote Originally Posted by Auxis View Post
    So, I may have missed something; do Demo Warlocks still get a doomguard from Doom? I could have sworn I kept seeing this doomguard getting changes in the alpha notes in regards to what kinds of bolts it used (started as shadowbolt volleys, last I saw it was single target SB's), but now Doom is a passive effect as opposed to an active ability, and it summons an imp upon expiry?

    Am I just misremembering this? Did they change it at some point?
    Yes doom summons doomguard with talents. Imp is just the default.

  4. #74404
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milkmustache View Post
    It's a tossup on how a lot of this stuff is going to land, but Goblins will be involved in a raid in a major way due to the naming of the item, just as Emerald Dream and Zaralek Caverns were discovered through naming of items.

    The Azj'kahet area with Venture Co. and Undermine tunnel dialogue seems to be a clear indication that Undermine will be involved in some form of a future patch and it's raid, presumably with the goblinraid items.

    I believe that the Rootlands won't be involved in this particular patch/raid due to different themes and different payoffs. Orwenya and the Harronir are tied with Elun'ahir which seems to have far greater implications within the approaching unraveling of the Titan's intentions. Although this may have larger story impact than Undermine, I think whatever it is will be covered in a Forbidden Reach/Time Rifts style subpatch to slowly feed lore with more to be covered in future expansions.If in this hypothetical we were to get Rootlands as a zone with the Harronir for a renown track and AR, Goblins as primary antagonist, and a raid that starts in Rootlands and moves to Undermine, we would be receiving two mashed together plotlines that, in my opinion, waste the potential of both of them. Because of this, I think it's incredibly unlikely they tie in the Goblins here.

    The mentioned dialogue with the Venture Co. and Undermine however do land decently well in the scope of TWW on a few levels that lead me to believe it will be our patch.

    I don't think it's likely that we get direct references to Undermine to only visit a different zone with Goblins. I think we will be in Undermine for the patch. This is the perfect time to utilize it as it's unlikely we will be returning to an entirely underground expansion for quite a while, if ever again. I also believe that Undermine and Goblins tie into this storyline in a more localized way (compared to the Harronir and Elun'ahir's bigger picture on the whole saga) due to Gallywix's obvious vies for power (as shown in Shadowlands) and the Goblin ties with mining operations. Maybe they'll be used to mine more black blood.

    I'd even believe we'd see a .5/.7 patch or megadungeon leading into Undermine where a small Rootlands zone has some form of Goblins (whether Venture Co. or Gazlowe's crew) either helping the Harronir remove blackblood from the roots, or forcing themselves in and mining as much as they can, which leads to a full Undermine patch.

    My whole point here being Rootlands/Harronir have a far larger impact for the entire expansion compared to Undermine and Goblins, which I think will be stretched out further along. I think we will get some development with them, but I do not think they will be the focus of an entire patch. I do think that Undermine will take this slot though, because it is the only chance we get along with all of the hints of getting there. I'm not sure on the lore motives for it, but I'm looking forward to finding out.

    I could be entirely wrong, and I'll welcome that! That's the fun in speculating.
    Agreed. It's essentially a mirror of what occurred with Zalarek Caverns and Aberrus in 10.1 with that patch and its associated raid being a side story dealing with the black dragonflight.

  5. #74405
    The Lightbringer Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Where was Neltharion and the Emerald dream in the DF announcement trailer?
    Why does that matter, exactly?
    Its clear they have a major role in the story or Blizz wouldn’t have put so much work into their race or the CGI models.


    No, it's Rootlands focused. Just like stopping Fyraak from plundering the Emerald Dream and the World tree was Emerald Dream focused.
    Uh-huh, whatever you say bud.

    Mechagon was though.
    You forget that Mechagon was also a minor zone.
    Which is the point I was making in drawing a comparison to the forbidden reach. Reading comprehension at its best.

    Link?
    I’m sure you can find your way onto beta just fine.


    "Goblins" aren't the Legion, or Arthas, or N'Zoth. These comparisons continue to be terrible.
    Comparison was fine, as I’m sure the leader of the venture company isn’t going to leave the Undermine & we’d have to kill him there.

    Kind of like how the Legion HCs, N’zoth, and Arthas were leading from their fortresses & we had to go there to kill them.
    Last edited by Nightshade711; 2024-06-19 at 05:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    what exactly makes Dwarves an underground race?

  6. #74406
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I'm saying that Zaralek Caverns and Amir'drassil were in their own zones separate from the Dragon Isles.
    If that's your take, then you're wrong. Zaralek Caverns and Amir'drassil are both part of the Dragon Isles, much like the Azure Span and the Forbidden Reach.
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  7. #74407
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    Why does that matter, exactly?
    It's clear they have a major role in the story or Blizz wouldn’t have put so much work into their race or the CGI models.
    Because neither showed up in the announcement trailer and both were focuses of DF's patches. It indicates that being in the announcement trailer is no indication of being major patch content.


    Uh-huh, whatever you say bud.
    It doesn't concern you that your Rootlands scenario is a literal retread of 10.2?

    You forget that Mechagon was also a minor zone.
    Which is the point I was making in drawing a comparison to the forbidden reach. Reading comprehension at its best.
    This is getting silly. The point is that if we're getting a goblin raid, we're getting a goblin patch. Just like Aberrus fit Zalarak Cavern, and Amidrassil fit the Emerald Dream.

    I’m sure you can find your way onto beta just fine.
    So no link to support your argument that Goblins are invading the Rootlands?


    Comparison was fine, as I’m sure the leader of the venture company isn’t going to leave the Undermine & we’d have to kill him there.
    Comparison is fine, yet you're comparing Arthas, the Legion, and N'Zoth to random Goblin villains that you can't even name?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    If that's your take, then you're wrong. Zaralek Caverns and Amir'drassil are both part of the Dragon Isles, much like the Azure Span and the Forbidden Reach.
    I don't recall needing to take a portal to get to Azure Span or the Forbidden Reach.......

  8. #74408
    The Lightbringer Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because neither showed up in the announcement trailer and both were focuses of DF's patches. It indicates that being in the announcement trailer is no indication of being major patch content.
    On its own and out of context, maybe.
    But you’re ignoring the datamining, the story build-up before and during TWW (so far), the very obvious zone entrance, etc.


    It doesn't concern you that your Rootlands scenario is a literal retread of 10.2?
    No, because it isn’t.
    Goblins aren’t in 10.2 trying to exploit the world tree for profit.

    This is getting silly. The point is that if we're getting a goblin raid, we're getting a goblin patch. Just like Aberrus fit Zalarak Cavern, and Amidrassil fit the Emerald Dream.
    Not sure why you don’t think a raid centered around fighting goblins isn’t a “goblin raid”, but you do you.

    Plus who knows, maybe we aren’t getting a goblin raid. Maybe the file is named that because there’s a goblin boss in the rootlands raid.
    Kind of like how the “ethereal raid” item is an item from the ethereal boss in the nerubian raid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    what exactly makes Dwarves an underground race?

  9. #74409
    I didn't play the beta and I do not know what was revealed in the quests so far, but I would suspect that Rootlands is the final patch of TWW, with Xal'atath trying to finally corrupt the Worldsoul by pumping the old god blood gathered by the Nerubians directly into the roots, which reach into the very core of the planet. She succeeds, and only then we get playable Harronir, as their duty was to protect the roots - but now that they have failed, they have a reason to go out in the world and try too mitigate their failure by helping us fight the Void.

  10. #74410
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I don't recall needing to take a portal to get to Azure Span or the Forbidden Reach.......
    Except Amir'drassil is literally right there to the west of Ohn'ahran Plains and you can travel there by foot. You only need a portal to access the Emerald Dream version of it, which is in that exact same place, only in a different dimension altogether.
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    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  11. #74411
    The Lightbringer Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I don't recall needing to take a portal to get to Azure Span or the Forbidden Reach.......
    You don't need to take a portal to get to Zaralek
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    what exactly makes Dwarves an underground race?

  12. #74412
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    On its own and out of context, maybe.
    But you’re ignoring the datamining, the story build-up before and during TWW (so far), the very obvious zone entrance, etc.
    Where in the story build up is there any indication of a Goblin invasion of the Rootlands? Further, where is there any indication that the Rootlands is large enough to support an entire patch and raid dedicated to it?

    No, because it isn’t.
    Goblins aren’t in 10.2 trying to exploit the world tree for profit.
    No, we simply had a proto-dragon and his cult of fire druids and elementals attempting to exploit the world tree for power.

    So instead of that, we're going to have a Goblin and their cartel of industrialists and elementals attempting to exploit an ancient world tree for profit.

    And we're going to go to yet another large wooded/forested zone with trees and roots, inhabited by purple tree-hugging elves. Except these purple tree-hugging elves are going to be furry and more troll-looking.

    Not sure why you don’t think a raid centered around fighting goblins isn’t a “goblin raid”, but you do you.
    Just like a raid centered around fighting a fire-based cult of dragons, druids, and elementals wasn't a fire raid, it was the Amir'drassil raid, literally entitled Amir'drassil the Dream's Hope.

    Plus who knows, maybe we aren’t getting a goblin raid. Maybe the file is named that because there’s a goblin boss in the rootlands raid.
    Kind of like how the “ethereal raid” item is an item from the ethereal boss in the nerubian raid.
    Maybe, but it simply makes sense that it is.
    +Undermine is directly mentioned in the story, connected to Khaz Algar, and was hinted at in Dragonflight.
    +Undermine is a large enough location to fit as a patch zone and house a raid, and justifies the "Goblinraid" datamine.
    +Undermine being patch content justifies the presence of Gazlowe and the Venture Co.
    +Undermine is one of the most prominent underground locations in WoW lore.
    +Undermine offers Horde content for 11.1, since so many Horde players feel that TWW is too Alliance centric in 11.0.
    +Undermine in of itself connects to the theme of the expansion due to its underground location and it being a vast source of Azerite in BFA.
    +Undermine makes sense as a city/hub with attractions and locations like the Brawler's Guild.

    etc. etc. etc.

    Versus Rootlands, which would simply be a 10.2 retread.

  13. #74413
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Where in the story build up is there any indication of a Goblin invasion of the Rootlands? Further, where is there any indication that the Rootlands is large enough to support an entire patch and raid dedicated to it?
    That's not how it works. We have no real information about the Rootlands other than "it exists", and Blizzard can make it as big as they want it to be. They literally made the Broken Isles big enough to support four separate raids. So Blizzard can easily make the Rootlands big enough to hold one single raid.

    Just like a raid centered around fighting a fire-based cult of dragons, druids, and elementals wasn't a fire raid, it was the Amir'drassil raid, literally entitled Amir'drassil the Dream's Hope.
    Because we weren't raiding the Firelands. It wasn't a 'fire raid'. And it wasn't Firelands-themed. But if the goblins build a fortified base of operations in the Rootlands, where it's almost exclusively goblin-themed, populated almost exclusively by goblins and those working for the goblins, then it would be a goblin raid, and likely called 'goblinraid' in the datamining.

    +Undermine is directly mentioned in the story, connected to Khaz Algar,
    "Connected" like Mulgore is connected to Tirisfal Glades. It's one long-ass tunnel that goes almost half across the world.

    +Undermine is a large enough location to fit as a patch zone and house a raid,
    Well, here your own argument applies: "Where is there any indication that the undermine is largue enough to support an entire patch and raid dedicated to it"?

    +Undermine being patch content justifies the presence of Gazlowe and the Venture Co.
    The Rootlands having some exploitable new resource alone justifies the presence of goblins. That's literally what justified their presence in Silithus after Legion.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  14. #74414
    The Lightbringer Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Where in the story build up is there any indication of a Goblin invasion of the Rootlands? Further, where is there any indication that the Rootlands is large enough to support an entire patch and raid dedicated to it?
    The goblins very nature & presence in Khaz Algar. It makes sense that they would try and exploit a powerful resource, such as a world tree planted by a titan.
    The build-up in DF, the gazlowe short story, etc.


    No, we simply had a proto-dragon and his cult of fire druids and elementals attempting to exploit the world tree for power.

    So instead of that, we're going to have a Goblin and their cartel of industrialists and elementals attempting to exploit an ancient world tree for profit.

    And we're going to go to yet another large wooded/forested zone with trees and roots, inhabited by purple tree-hugging elves. Except these purple tree-hugging elves are going to be furry and more troll-looking.
    Well that's what the story is pointing towards.
    I don't think an underground zone would hold a forest, but it would be neat to see I think.


    Maybe, but it simply makes sense that it is.
    +Undermine is directly mentioned in the story, connected to Khaz Algar, and was hinted at in Dragonflight.
    +Undermine is a large enough location to fit as a patch zone and house a raid, and justifies the "Goblinraid" datamine.
    +Undermine being patch content justifies the presence of Gazlowe and the Venture Co.
    +Undermine is one of the most prominent underground locations in WoW lore.
    +Undermine offers Horde content for 11.1, since so many Horde players feel that TWW is too Alliance centric in 11.0.
    +Undermine in of itself connects to the theme of the expansion due to its underground location and it being a vast source of Azerite in BFA.
    +Undermine makes sense as a city/hub with attractions and locations like the Brawler's Guild.

    etc. etc. etc.

    Versus Rootlands, which would simply be a 10.2 retread.
    A lot of that is the usual "Guys the undermine is coming next xpac!" stretching that you've been doing for ages now.
    Maybe it might happen one day, maybe it won't.

    I expect it'll be a minor patch side-story like Mechagon & the Forbidden Reach.
    Last edited by Nightshade711; 2024-06-19 at 10:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    what exactly makes Dwarves an underground race?

  15. #74415
    Quote Originally Posted by milkmustache View Post
    It's a tossup on how a lot of this stuff is going to land, but Goblins will be involved in a raid in a major way due to the naming of the item, just as Emerald Dream and Zaralek Caverns were discovered through naming of items.
    I just want to reiterate that icon naming is one of the least consistent things in the game and that people should be careful about reading too far into them, that goblinraid exists on an icon name could mean almost anything from a full raid tier, to a mini raid, to a single goblin boss in an otherwise not goblin raid.

  16. #74416
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That's not how it works. We have no real information about the Rootlands other than "it exists", and Blizzard can make it as big as they want it to be. They literally made the Broken Isles big enough to support four separate raids. So Blizzard can easily make the Rootlands big enough to hold one single raid.
    Nightshade stated that I'm ignoring evidence from TWW's story indicating that this will be a patch location. I'm merely asking him to provide this evidence.

    Because we weren't raiding the Firelands. It wasn't a 'fire raid'. And it wasn't Firelands-themed. But if the goblins build a fortified base of operations in the Rootlands, where it's almost exclusively goblin-themed, populated almost exclusively by goblins and those working for the goblins, then it would be a goblin raid, and likely called 'goblinraid' in the datamining.
    And again, where is there any indication that the Goblins have set up a base of operations in the Rootlands to the point that it would be large enough to justify a raid? Where is any indication that the Goblins are going after the Rootlands to start with?


    "Connected" like Mulgore is connected to Tirisfal Glades. It's one long-ass tunnel that goes almost half across the world.
    Which only strengthens the argument that Undermine would be its own patch location and not connected to Rootlands. Further, we already have Goblins coming to Khaz Algar from Undermine, which indicates that there is a direct route between those locations.

    Well, here your own argument applies: "Where is there any indication that the undermine is largue enough to support an entire patch and raid dedicated to it"?
    Blizzard devs stated that Undermine was a planned city and even a continent in vanilla. So clearly it is large enough in terms of dev concept and lore.

    The Rootlands having some exploitable new resource alone justifies the presence of goblins. That's literally what justified their presence in Silithus after Legion.
    Except we've already run across multiple Goblins in beta, some even from the Venture Co., and none of them are talking about the Rootlands.

  17. #74417
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, the problem with that is that the raid is Goblin themed. So the patch and location is also going to be Goblin themed. Why would Blizzard create a Goblin themed zone in Khaz Algar instead of simply making Undermine (which they've already stated is connected to Khaz Algar)?
    Except all the times where a raid is themed one way & the location is only tangentially related. I wouldn't even call Zalarak Caverns dragon or neltharian themed since the creatures that lived there were primarily elementals & Niffen. Or for example there were activities in Tanaan Jungle related to the invasion of the Burning Legion, but Tanaan itself wasn't "a burning legion zone"
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Except we've already run across multiple Goblins in beta, some even from the Venture Co., and none of them are talking about the Rootlands.
    Because Rootlands is its internal name. They're talking about finding the deeper sections of Khaz Algar, which doesn't currently have a name but people on this forum are calling the Rootlands... Why does Goblins wanting to excavate this new lands make less sense to you than them all packing up & returning to their homeland & the players following them?
    Last edited by Ersula; 2024-06-19 at 10:30 PM.

  18. #74418
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    The goblins very nature & presence in Khaz Algar. It makes sense that they would try and exploit a powerful resource, such as a world tree planted by a titan.
    The build-up in DF, the gazlowe short story, etc.
    Again, we have dialogue from Venture Co. goblins in Khaz Algar. None of them are talking about the Rootlands.

    Not a single one. If the Venture Co. came to Khaz Algar to exploit that resource, why is none of them talking about it?


    Well that's what the story is pointing towards.
    A Harronir dancing in the announcement trailer = We're going to have an entire patch dedicated to Harronir!


    A lot of that is the usual "Guys the undermine is coming next xpac!" stretching that you've been doing for ages now.
    Maybe it might happen one day, maybe it won't.

    I expect it'll be a minor patch side-story like Mechagon & the Forbidden Reach.
    Uh we have Goblins in Khaz Algar who literally came from Undermine, and who stated that they came from Undermine via a tunnel that connects the two locations. I really don't know how much more evidence you need.

  19. #74419
    5.4 introduced a new zone, Timeless Isle, and yet the patch raid was not located there. 9.1 introduced Korthia and yet the Sanctum of Domination raid was not set there. 5.2 and 8.2 each introduced two new zones with one of those two zones having nothing to do with the raid.

  20. #74420
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    Rootlands is a really stupid name.

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