The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

I'd say, there are things you can do to create the feeling of Lovecraftian horror (which is not all cosmic horror; body horror and paranoia are much more common) in video games but I am unsure they would work in Warcraft. Take the example of Samuel Williams in Stormsong Valley back in BfA; in a more realistic aesthetic and a different RPG format that story absolutely could work. But the cartoony aesthetic of WoW may work for so much but it absolutely dampens the body horror of what is happening to him (just as it did to places like Scholomance that would have definitely not been suitable for children in a more realistic art style). And the fact that we are in an MMO format which means you can always just drop the quest and do it later and some random dude in a clown suit might be jumping around you while you are questing keeps the immersion minimal.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

that actually rendering the unknowable completely defeats the purpose. The cosmic entities in Bloodborne are glorified invisible monsters, and they only work in the true cosmic horror sense when they are invisible and you are powerless to do anything. When you're going around just hacking them to pieces like they're nothing but big animals it totally fails to actually represent the nature of cosmic horror.

The fashion in which Lovecraft handled it was to basically talk around it, to focus on describing how it wasn't describable. Writing about how things are at "the wrong angle" or musical chords are "otherworldly", to just describe reactions or feelings to the thing instead of the thing itself. . . (w)hen you realize that the fact that you can see the Great Ones, and that they are just long-armed tentacle things, you also then realize that the logic of them being imperceptible without insight makes no sense at all. There's nothing incomprehensible about them, they are odd looking in the way any generic monster is odd looking and there's no real logical reason why they should've been invisible for being so mind-boggling, because they aren't mind-boggling at all.

( . . . )

Likewise, it is physically impossible to present Old God whispering in a fashion similar to the experience. It is an overwhelming, incomprehensible sensory experience that can't be replicated in a real capcity, because to begin with human sensory experience is a binary. Either a form of electromagnetic radiation falls on the visible spectrum or it is invisible to the human eye. There is no actual visible wild and crazy color beyond human comprehension that will make people go insane, because if it's visible that means its in the limited range of perceptibility.

I'd say, there are things you can do to create the feeling of Lovecraftian horror (which is not all cosmic horror; body horror and paranoia are much more common) in video games but I am unsure they would work in Warcraft. Take the example of Samuel Williams in Stormsong Valley back in BfA; in a more realistic aesthetic and a different RPG format that story absolutely could work. But the cartoony aesthetic of WoW may work for so much but it absolutely dampens the body horror of what is happening to him

The big problem with cosmic horror has always been making something unknowable...relatable.

But that's the thing: you're focusing too much on the conceit that the monster really is meant to be unknowable, and treating that as the be-all end-all of Cosmic Horror; but it isn't. The horror is in the unknown, certainly, but it's neither the ultimate core of the genre on the Doylist level nor the thing that drives one mad on a Watsonian level. Madness does not come from looking at a really ugly fish-monster and somehow concluding that mankind is ultimately minuscule and irrelevant because there are really ugly fish monsters; madness comes from gradually realizing how much you appreciate their art, how much you're starting to look like one, and ultimately that you could trace your lineage back to one of them. That you have actually been a fish-baby all along is what drives you insane because it forces you to fundamentally reevaluate your understanding of reality. In short, as I poked at earlier, it is the revelation, not the thing that sparks it, that drives you insane. Certainly, Lovecraft himself did wank his creations as ambiguously "blasphemous" or "indescribable", but that was never the core intention of his work; this was merely the best undertaking of a man to frame something as strange and alien who could only describe penguins as "grotesque". The true undertaking could be argued to be to demonstrate precisely how Lovecraft felt about the implications of the advances of science at the time, and how he felt in the presence of anything alien to himself; he was taken into what he considered to be the final instar of the Enlightenment: the horrible, soul-scorching daybreak about to come upon our placid isle of ignorance.

It is easy to get caught up in the surface-level horror and fail to realize the real foundation of Cosmic Horror, which I think Bloodborne did get right. Sure, you look at Amygdala, and you're probably underwhelmed. It's a fairly ugly stick bug that dies near-effortlessly. However, it's not the ugly stick bug that drives you insane: it's the revelations around the Great Ones. Insight isn't just "lol, I know evil monsters exist now"; Insight is the understanding that mounts as you come to realize that the Great Ones are not some set of nebulous, incomparable entities, but something like what you could be, if you only evolved more. You are not merely perceiving weird and ugly monsters, but you are starting to realize the scope of humanity's future, and the true nature of the cosmos and evolution in itself. If it's not that revelation, then it's the desperation to reach that state, or the realizations you gain about how much you really, really like killing things from the hunt, or the life-shattering things that occur as a side-effect of any one or combination of the aforementioned elements that dooms you to insanity. To me, why Bloodborne worked is because it didn't undertake to somehow render the Great Ones as truly sanity-rending in themselves, and instead focused on the implications of their existence and the revelations that would come with these implications as the catalyst for insanity.

In short, Cosmic Horror isn't mainly horror with "cosmic" as an adjective. It is more accurate phrased "the cosmos, and the horrors that come with it". It is the "horror", not the "cosmic", which is secondary.

One interesting element where both Bloodborne and Lovecraft converge is also in that the revelations, though life-changing, are not always irrevocably devastating in the end, which sort of ties together revelation as the central theme of all Cosmic Horror. In this respect, I think it also relates to my aforementioned portrayal of Lovecraft as using his writing as a means of providing a window into his warped perception of reality. In Bloodborne and throughout the Yog-Sothoth Cycle, the protagonist grows to become less horrified by and more accustomed to what they're seeing, sort of cementing the true nature of the horror as not being the ugly and unfathomable monsters, but the nature of the cosmos itself; just as Lovecraft conquered his horrors by learning to remain defiant in the face of his fear,—how he came to decry at least some of his prior racism, how he came to grow as a person to some extent, how he began to write the Nightgaunts, creatures from his childhood nightmares, in accord with the protagonist in Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath—our protagonists find solace in accepting the revelations instead of denying them. In a way, the very fact that the Black Empire is founded on deception is precisely a failure of Cosmic Horror because the foundation is that it is truth which drives you to the edge of madness, which is the very shore on which you either wallow in the safety of your makeshift idyll or set off towards the soul-shattering daybreak. The Hunter in Bloodborne, in what is arguably the best ending, does not merely kill their way through the horrors, but learns to become one of them and to accept,—and become,—the vanguard of mankind's ascension. Similarly, Randolph Carter may have once fainted in fear in the face of creatures much like the Nightgaunts and Ghouls he meets, yet comes to dwell among them happily, and even forge accords with them in the Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath. As Robert Olmstead learns of the horror of his ancestry, he finds a kind of solace in his madness, and well and truly comes to accept that he is truly W̶e̶l̶s̶h a Deep One, and is thus welcomed by the horrors from which he once cowered as one of their own.

Both sides of Cosmic Horror, in this respect, I don't think will manifest—though they theoretically could—in WoW because it requires the characters to be anything more than unthinking automata with no capacity for deeper philosophical thought. The cast in WoW are all written as vapid idiots; I don't mean this as an attack on the writers, but rather as a sort of expression of disappointment, because Danuser clearly can write characters thinking a bit more, as some of the in-universe philosophy in Shadowlands reveals. I don't particularly like it at all, but it shows the man isn't an idiot and is wholly capable of tackling these kinds of ideas. Yet, when our heroes are staring into the nexus of the crisis and origin of the storms, the unthinking, unfeeling automata may only blurt out a "oh boy oh boy! I sure hope Andy's okay!!" instead of daring to think for even a passing second about the implications of what they've seen. Similarly, the revelations that the Black Empire or the Void could offer are not truly explored as deeply as they could be, which is again disappointing because there is a foundation for it. There will neither be the soul-shuddering revelation nor the sanity-soothing miracle that comes from understanding and accepting what one wants to reject.

So what of it? What does a gradient force that devours destiny to weave a tapestry of all possibilities only seem to change perspectives through pandering to the observer? Why does nobody seem to consider that all the joys of consciousness, wisdom, and free will, and all the happy experiences they have had with exploring the world from the perspective of an animal with the world's most complex computer in their skulls, came not from the benevolent, earth-forging Titans, but Yogg-Saron and his ilk?

And why do they so rarely point this out?

N'Zoth ought to be enlightened, because this is his very nature he is talking about. Yet, the closest we ever get to discussing these kind of revelations is in a throwaway line from Il'gynoth! It's all about making blustering threats, empty promises, and other such generic dross. What is the revelation in that? How could there ever be earth-shattering truth in being told what you want to hear? I would remain as stable as I was before if I hear about how you totally made that dragon evil that one time. N'Zoth, and all the rest of the Black Empire except somewhat Y'Shaarj, C'Thun, and Il'gynoth (to varying degrees) are just generic fantasy baddies that look like squids; and this is hardly necessary for the genre. As I pointed out above with Bloodborne, the soul-shattering revelation can come just as well when you're cutting through big tentacle monsters. I used to be of the mind that being able to kill or perceive something precluded effective Cosmic Horror, or even the simulacra of the genre, but I realize only now precisely how wrong I was. It's absolutely possible to impart horrible revelations about the nature of reality, no matter the creature you use. You could only have a Nyarlathotep-esque "spookier human" character presenting the truth, and you could slit his throat the second after, but if the truth is weighty enough, the revelation sufficiently unprecedented, then you still have at least the slightest smidgen of true Cosmic Horror.

We ought to learn something from the Void that really does make us question what we know about the cosmos. We ought to stare into the abyss, and get to see it stare back at us with our own eyes. This is not only key to experiencing the horror, but to conquering it as well. Cosmic Horror is not the giant squid-thing telling you how hopeless it is. It is the giant squid-thing calmly telling you the truth in your friend's voice, and this is certainly something you could do in WoW. If anything, an open-world MMO would be perfect, especially with how obsessed the writing team has been with scattering around unsolvable puzzle pieces. Instead of wasting them on hyping up Danuser's six-pronged nonsense or the First Ones, or to retroactively foreshadow events that the writing team hasn't actually decided on yet, why not work in that direction?

Also, with regards to persuasion: I think you misunderstand the Void's M.O. It's not a politician or a slimy businessman. It's not lying to try and trick you into taking its side. It exists in a metaphysical state beyond time or possibility.

That's what it should be, yes. But that's not what we're shown; an impartial, alien entity does not speak about how it made the good dragon evil because it's so spooky and powerful, or how it's totally actually trying to save you from what's to come (in the next WoW expansion; preorder now!). What we actually get are overhyped baddies hardly more complex than the Jailer wearing big squids on their heads.

I would argue that N'zoth's depiction is the strongest of the primary four Old Gods, because if anything we still aren't quite sure what his real plan is or was, or if it worked, or if he's really dead or if the entire thing was a set up.

As with Cosmic Horror, excluding information alone does not an effective manipulator character make; just withholding information from the audience does nothing to induce a sense of credibility, especially when the very same uncertainty seems to exist in the writing room. It feels more to me like N'Zoth was unceremoniously killed off because the writers found themselves in a corner, and then they pressed the "but he might not actually be dead actually!" button when they realized how upset everybody was bound to be when the patch released.

Deathwing's final surrender to the Old Gods wasn't about tricks. It was that from the start there was always going to come a time where he desperately needed/wanted that extra power and was going to take the deal. Like Azshara: Did it matter that N'zoth obviously had his own agenda in mind when the options were take the deal or be crushed to death and drown at the bottom of the sea? Alleria knows as well as anyone that the Void is a double-edged sword that requires constant vigilance walking on the knife edge, but she's still gone with it because the other options were losing to the Legion and letting the people she loves die.

The free choice in falling the Void may yet have been emphasized in a couple cases, yet the narrative again treats the whispers like some inevitable, unstoppable force bound to drive you into a state of ill-defined madness that turns you into a one-off loot pinata. This is at least one of the few elements in which the "effective manipulator" bit is played properly, but it still does come from a sort of persuasion or bargaining with ulterior motives. It does work for them on paper, but see my prior comments as to why this is not the most interesting thing you could do with the Void.

Really? Cause I'd argue the Old Gods have been doing it just fine.

How?

[Nymrohd]

@Le Conceptuel I didn't really focus on that at all. I am saying that what you can do is BODY HORROR. Sammuels slowly transforms into a mind flayer, we reverse it only for Lord Stormsong to supercharge it and turn an innocent we had been protecting into a mass of flesh that attacks us. Imagine that but in a Silent Hills game. It would work and it would be horrifying. I know it works in tabletop cause I've done it to a player who was going through ceremorphosis and the group ate it up.

Old Gods are after all focused on flesh. Void Lords are focused on cosmic horror. Which makes sense given that the former are the physical incarnation of the latter.

[Lady Atia]

Yes, they don't care at all. If they're still here talking about things that have no fucking relationship to the topic, they're allowed to. After several dozen off-topic pages, you will notice that they are always the same names. Obviously these people never or very little participate when the thread is not derailed. But you know, like craving junkies, they're there to derail it when they get out of control.

They could very well create their own topic, but no. We absolutely have to derail this thread, otherwise it's not funny. I don't know what's going on in their head to be honest. But like I said, if they're still there despite reports... they're authorized. The forum is corrupt and I will probably walk away from it. It's a shame, discussions can be so interesting when people have respect and talk about the subject.

And you will see, I will succeed in getting myself banned for these remarks.



This is the cutscene model and animations but we can always dream.

Well, I have no clue about the technical sides behind the cinematic models besides that f.e. the faces use more bones and stuff, but couldn't they easily use the body shape later on for player models? It somehow reminds me about Garrosh in SoO and the later Orc rework in WoD tbh. And not gonna lie, initially I wasn't really on board with more body shapes but if they manage to keep the spirit of each races while giving some variation like with Sindragosa/Alex it could work super well. That said, I can already see the "Mc Donalds opened up on Azeroth during the Timeskip" memes if they make body shapes too much like the Kul Tirans lol (although chunky Worgens could look super cute xD).

Also, imo "additional body shapes and more race customizations to bring them inline with Dracthyr" would go very well alongside a revamp that shows off the new models.

[Scyth]

Wth are these last 2 pages lol Derailing a thread is one thing but some of you lot are taking it to a whole other level. Create a new thread and post your essays there.

Stiven from wowhead posted pictures of Alextrasza without her horns and armour today, and for me it looks like it's actually not using the classic blood elf skeleton? Could see it used as another body type option down the line similiar to Dracthyr?



Also I think Sindragrosa's cinematic visage model also uses a different build than the classic blood/void elves.

(oh, and we defo need new HD hairstyles for the older races that are on par with Alex's hair here lol)

This model looks great, not sure how I've missed it!
Has it been datamined which cinematic would use this? Or is it just her normal appearance but without the horns?

[Aucald]

The long-winded discussions about body horror, cosmic horror, and Lovecraftian themes aren't really germane to this thread - take it to the Lore forum if you want to discuss the more general or broader themes of storytelling in WoW and let's keep this thread focused on more specific elements of future content patch or expansion material in WoW.

[Skildar]

all this discussion about horror made me realize that they once tried improving camera work for their combat system but then gave up rather quickly. I wonder if they will get back on this task in the future. For sure I would enjoy it but I'm thinking that very competitive players will need the option for current camera freedom to stay.

Good camera in video game is probably one of the hardest thing to pull off but it's very rewarding for narrative work and the overall ambiance

[AOL Instant Messenger]

While we're back on the usual topic, what kind of themes are people roughly expecting for the oncoming expansion?

[Lahis]

While we're back on the usual topic, what kind of themes are people roughly expecting for the oncoming expansion?

I'll be shocked if it is not the Light Crusade.

[AngerFork]

While we're back on the usual topic, what kind of themes are people roughly expecting for the oncoming expansion?

Light vs. Void has been hinted at for some time, would not be surprised to see that as a theme. Avaloren has been mentioned more and more lately and would play well off of damage that the Incarnates might be able to cause. As we don't know much about Avaloren, it's very possibly already infested with one of the cosmic elements, so those two themes may not be that different.

World revamp is still a possibility too, especially with the 20th Anniversary of WoW coming up. It would be a good chance for the current WoW team to make the world their own while at the same time making more zones have standalone stories that aren't as trapped in time as the Cata stories are.

[micwini]

While we're back on the usual topic, what kind of themes are people roughly expecting for the oncoming expansion?

The long awaited theme of 'revamping'.

[Nebron]

While we're back on the usual topic, what kind of themes are people roughly expecting for the oncoming expansion?

I'd go with World Revamp. As of now, I don't see a proper build-up created for Void vs. Light to be honest. Altough there are a few hints/storyline bits here and there about void and light, I don't think the story has been developed to the point, it could serve as a fully-fledged expansion theme. If the expansion like that was announced today, I'd be absolutely surprised, but there's still lots of potential to push these themes further in Dragonflight.

On the other hand, the whole idea of "reawakening" of Azeroth, reganing power by Aspects, stories being much more subtle, mainly outside of grand cosmic scope, sells the idea of revamp to me. Also, it's worth noting that changes to talents system / flying / production pipeline fit pretty nice to the World Revamp theme.

Also, one of the most important storylines revolves around Bronze Dragonflight. So, I'll just repeat my theory from over a year ago - somehow Nozdromu/ Murozond will throw us into the future, serving as a plot device to push the World Revamp idea without any issues of being non-canoncial or anything like that and from that point, there are plenty of possibilities for story development - from Scarlet Crusade and Turalyon possibly working together (further exploring light theme, to eventually serve a properly built-up story of Light vs. Void war), to fight between some newly created Kingdoms, reshaping Kalimdor ecosystem.

[Darkarath]

Light vs. Void has been hinted at for some time, would not be surprised to see that as a theme. Avaloren has been mentioned more and more lately and would play well off of damage that the Incarnates might be able to cause. As we don't know much about Avaloren, it's very possibly already infested with one of the cosmic elements, so those two themes may not be that different.

World revamp is still a possibility too, especially with the 20th Anniversary of WoW coming up. It would be a good chance for the current WoW team to make the world their own while at the same time making more zones have standalone stories that aren't as trapped in time as the Cata stories are.

IMO, if Blizzard really wants to bring attention to the game, world revamp is the only choice.

Blizzard seems desperate to bring back old players. Bringing new players would be veeery necessary, but veeery complicated too. Funnily enough, I think that a world revamp with a proper campaign would also help to bring new players, but it would be there, especially, for the millions of players who have played WoW through the years, and left for one reason or another.

Avaloren, South Isles expansion plus a boat, Order Plane... they all sound good. But a world revamp is waaay above all these possible expansions in terms of the interest and hype that they would create.

Imagine that you are an ex-WoW player. You see the trailer for a new expansion, lets say, one that takes us to Avaloren. It could have everything that we have dream of. It could be amazingly good. The ex-WoW player would watch it and think: ''Hum, seems cool. I do not give a shit about this Avaloren, but I might try it''. BUT if that ex-WoW player watches a trailer of a world revamp, with amazing visuals, evergreen content, etc. Oh, man, nostalgia hits hard. I can guarantee you that the interest of that person would be exponentially higher than with ANY other expansion, no matter how good it is.

In a world revamp, BTW, you can include Void vs Light and all the themes that you want. Make these themes known for the players, and from there, develop them.

[Skildar]

While we're back on the usual topic, what kind of themes are people roughly expecting for the oncoming expansion?

world of warcraft : rigtheous order
or a title along those lines where we go back to a dragonless Northrend where we see Ulduar and all its facilities back in activity. New titan constructs, forges burning strong to strengthen Odyn's armie, etc.

Avalaron's barriers have been lifted and a war is on the horizon. In the calm before the storm we help Odyn cleanse the land of Northrend and reinforce its defenses.

[Dracullus]

Anyone know if profession stuff will finally be account-wide for main 4 Renown in 10.1.5? It's ridicolous that Niffen has it, they even hotfixed Consortium to be account-wide, but still they force you to be 20-something on every alt with specific profession. Repeating Renown shold be only about earning extra gold/resources/gear and next shot for free cosmetic.

[huth]

While we're back on the usual topic, what kind of themes are people roughly expecting for the oncoming expansion?

While many people seem to expect Light, i suppose they did also fairly clearly say the Naga are likely to make a return soonish.

Personally, i'm not really seeing any clear indications for which one the next will be, but i wouldn't be surprised if these two themes were major contenders, while we don't know enough about Avaloren to have much idea what the theme would be. What little we do know pertains to how it was many millenia in the past, not now.


No large-scale revamps. Those are a waste of resources.

[Nymrohd]

Personally, i'm not really seeing any clear indications for which one the next will be, but i wouldn't be surprised if these two themes were major contenders, while we don't know enough about Avaloren to have much idea what the theme would be. What little we do know pertains to how it was many millenia in the past, not now.

Not like time influenced the Dragon Isles.

[huth]

Not like time influenced the Dragon Isles.

Koranos' colleagues would beg to differ. If time and the elements hadn't worn them away.

Waste of sources? Nah bruh, I'd kill for a World Revamp. That would be so fun and cool

Those aren't mutually exclusive. Something being fun and cool does not make it worth the cost.

[AngerFork]

IMO, if Blizzard really wants to bring attention to the game, world revamp is the only choice.

Blizzard seems desperate to bring back old players. Bringing new players would be veeery necessary, but veeery complicated too. Funnily enough, I think that a world revamp with a proper campaign would also help to bring new players, but it would be there, especially, for the millions of players who have played WoW through the years, and left for one reason or another.

Avaloren, South Isles expansion plus a boat, Order Plane... they all sound good. But a world revamp is waaay above all these possible expansions in terms of the interest and hype that they would create.

Imagine that you are an ex-WoW player. You see the trailer for a new expansion, lets say, one that takes us to Avaloren. It could have everything that we have dream of. It could be amazingly good. The ex-WoW player would watch it and think: ''Hum, seems cool. I do not give a shit about this Avaloren, but I might try it''. BUT if that ex-WoW player watches a trailer of a world revamp, with amazing visuals, evergreen content, etc. Oh, man, nostalgia hits hard. I can guarantee you that the interest of that person would be exponentially higher than with ANY other expansion, no matter how good it is.

In a world revamp, BTW, you can include Void vs Light and all the themes that you want. Make these themes known for the players, and from there, develop them.

I don't disagree that a world revamp would bring a lot more attention to the game than just another continent. If I'm looking at the reveals from Blizzcon, something talking about revamping Azeroth would definitely grab my attention more than a continent I've never even heard of.

If they do a revamp, I don't think they should give us everything at once. Part of what has made Dragonflight so much better than Shadowlands is that the content cadence is a lot better. Every couple of months, we're getting something new and exciting to do, even if some of it is repetitive. This would work amazing with a world revamp. Give us a few zones to start with, then alongside new patches, perhaps add a zone or two at a time. Done right, that should make the endgame cadence work better as well as making it so Blizz isn't so crunched to get every zone done all at once.

[huth]

Would arguably bring more players to the game tho.

Would it really? What evidence do you have for that? Cataclysm did not do exceptionally well.