The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Teriz]

He's not. If he was, why wasn't he mentioned along the actual significant characters of the expansion, such as Magni, Thrall, Alleria and Anduin?

Because he’s primarily 11.1 content, not really relevant (though present) in 11.0.

Link #1: no real indication of undermine's actual size in the lore.

The developer’s notes on what Blizzard intended for Undermine in vanilla should indicate it.

Link #2: an opinion piece, fan interpretation.
Link #3: the RPG books are not sources of lore. Also, since it's topical: according to that same book, Azjol-Nerub has a population 20.000 (same as undermine) and yet it was the smallest dungeon in the Wrath of the Lich King expansion.

Are you being purposely obtuse? You know large parts of Azjol-Nerub got cut because they couldn’t get it done in time for release (because it was going to be a ton of work).

The idea that Blizzard wouldn’t refer to vanilla development notes and RPG lore is nonsense.

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One of the most damning things against Undermine in TWW as a city is the fact that we’ve already got a large underground city-zone that we’re doing content in that houses a raid coming at launch.

I doubt blizzard would do the exact same thing again in the same expansion.

Ancient Spider-city filled with monsterbugs =\= Industrialized, multinational Goblin city with trains, Zepplins, trade organizations, etc.

Not the same thing.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Where’s the concern for enemy variety in Midnight coming from?

That we are going to get purple space magic fatigue like we did with three years of orcs in red underground fortresses from SoO through WoD, or demon fatigue with three years of green lava demons in black fortresses from Hellfire through Legion.

[Teriz]

While it's true the theme is a little repetitive, I will not that AK is not only much smaller than Suramar but it is not shaped like a conventional, traditional city.

But I think they will focus on Industrial/Factory themes for Undermine over Mean Streets of Gadgetzan.

I have a feeling it’s going to be Gallywix’s pleasure palace, where we have to fight through various crap that Gallywix has purchased with his wealth, and then we fight him in a giant mech (probably jewel encrusted and dipped in gold) that he purchased with all the money stole from the people of Undermine.

[FossilFree]

Wowpedia is out of date. The old wowpedia content and team moved to https://warcraft.wiki.gg and wowpedia is now a shady corporate operation that doesn't get new info. Don't promote wowpedia anymore or the google algorithms will keep sending people there.

[Santandame]

That we are going to get purple space magic fatigue like we did with three years of orcs in red underground fortresses from SoO through WoD, or demon fatigue with three years of green lava demons in black fortresses from Hellfire through Legion.

I’m fairly confident that none of that fatigue actually happened and was just a term coined by a vocal minority. I’ve already specified in the sane post you quoted the most likely antagonist variety for Midnight too.

Orcs were the primary focus of one raid in WoD, and despite being the main enemies of the launch content were only really prevalent in Frostfire Ridge, Nagrand and Talador. Even so, those entire zones weren’t dedicated to them except for the majority of Frostfire.

The Legion actually had a very minor role in the Broken Isles levelling content. The most prominent time they appear is during the initial questing in Aszuna, in which they’re dealt with in less than 30 minutes. before the zone focus shifts majorly to Naga and Blue Dragons. Aside from that, they’re relegated to a section of Suramar and appearing in one of the very last quests in Stormheim. They don’t show up again in a major way until the Broken Shore and later Argus.

[Nibelheimy]

He's not. If he was, why wasn't he mentioned along the actual significant characters of the expansion, such as Magni, Thrall, Alleria and Anduin?

Even Jaina is more prominent, and I'm confused as to why they've chosen to use her for this expansion at this point.

[Santandame]

Even Jaina is more prominent, and I'm confused as to why they've chosen to use her for this expansion at this point.

She’s one of the main characters of Warcraft at this point. She’s possibly the most powerful mortal on Azeroth, why wouldn’t she be involved for a threat of this magnitude? Add in that Dalaran has just been destroyed too.

[Raetary]

Even Jaina is more prominent, and I'm confused as to why they've chosen to use her for this expansion at this point.

Probably because they felt like they needed a major mage presence that can represent the Kirin Tor, to replace Khadgar.

The rest of the council of 6 is relatively minor and unknown and Jaina is literally the Mage who also used to be on the council, so back to her it is.

[Teriz]

Wowpedia is out of date. The old wowpedia content and team moved to https://warcraft.wiki.gg and wowpedia is now a shady corporate operation that doesn't get new info. Don't promote wowpedia anymore or the google algorithms will keep sending people there.

Outside of new information from DF and beta, what info about Undermine is the old site missing?

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Even Jaina is more prominent, and I'm confused as to why they've chosen to use her for this expansion at this point.

Eh, you quest with Gazlowe in Azj Khenet.

[Nightshade711]

Ancient Spider-city filled with monsterbugs =\= Industrialized, multinational Goblin city with trains, Zepplins, trade organizations, etc.

Not the same thing.

Yeah, just like fighting goblins isn’t the same as fighting fire dragons & fire druids.

[Teriz]

Yeah, just like fighting goblins isn’t the same as fighting fire dragons & fire druids.

It’s not about fighting X, it’s about defending mystical trees and roots from X.

[Nightshade711]

It’s not about fighting X, it’s about defending mystical trees and roots from X.

It’s not about bugs and goblins it’s about fighting an oppressive regime/faction in a city as endgame content.

[Teriz]

It’s not about bugs and goblins it’s about fighting an oppressive regime/faction in a city as endgame content.

Yeah, I seriously doubt the city is the raid. More likely the raid is Galkywux’s personal residence/base of operations in the heart of Undermine. Probably some high-rise building or pleasure palace.

Like those old 2D fighting games where the final boss is in some skyscraper and you have to fight thugs, kangaroos, and robots to get to the big boss on the top floor.

I could totally see Blizzard doing something like that.

Conversely, you could go with the industrial theme with us going beneath undermine and fighting Gallywix and potentially the void beneath the city amongst giant machine works and factories.

The point is, Goblins are so aesthetically different than Nerubians from race to architecture that both taking place in cities doesn’t really matter.

[FossilFree]

Outside of new information from DF and beta, what info about Undermine is the old site missing?

Not specifically about Undermine, but speaking in general. I know the section on artificers was missing large chunks on wowpedia but was up to date on https://warcraft.wiki.gg

Maybe not the biggest deal atm, but it will compound with time. Best to get everyone moved over now imo.

[Ielenia]

Because he’s primarily 11.1 content, not really relevant (though present) in 11.0.

Your wishes and desires are not facts, I'll remind you.

The developer’s notes on what Blizzard intended for Undermine in vanilla should indicate it.

And the fact that undermine is not available from launch should indicate to you that it's not going to be a 'sprawling zone-wide city'.

The idea that Blizzard wouldn’t refer to vanilla development notes and RPG lore is nonsense.

"Refer to" is one thing. "1:1 copy and make it exactly as originally intended" is another thing entirely.

[Teriz]

Your wishes and desires are not facts, I'll remind you.

The evidence appears to pointing in that direction.

And the fact that undermine is not available from launch should indicate to you that it's not going to be a 'sprawling zone-wide city'.

Them not implementing it at launch because they didnt have enough time and resources kind of proves that they intended it to be a large location.

"Refer to" is one thing. "1:1 copy and make it exactly as originally intended" is another thing entirely.

Referring to a source that states its larger than Orgrimmar bodes well for Undermine being implemented as a large, zone-size location.

[Nightshade711]

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So still a rehash of azj-kahet but with goblins? Unlikely.

[Teriz]

So still a rehash of azj-kahet but with goblins? Unlikely.

I seriously doubt something like Undermine would give someone flashbacks of Azj Kahet.

[Ielenia]

The evidence appears to pointing in that direction.

What evidence? Gazlowe is not going to be a big player in the expansion, that's a fact. If he was, he'd be showcased in the expansion reveal alongside Magni, Alleria, Anduin and Thrall. He wasn't. He wasn't even mentioned in the expansion reveal.

Them not implementing it at launch because they didnt have enough time and resources kind of proves that they intended it to be a large location.

Blizzard did not implement undermine at launch because undermine it's not a location we'll explore in the first arc of the story. That is why. And for someone who loves to take Blizzard's trends as gospel, you sure are fighting tooth and nail against such "trends" now that they go against your desires to see a mid-expansion patch zone featuring a city that would be bigger than any other city in the game.

Referring to a source

A source that is non-canon, I'll remind you.

[Raetary]

I seriously doubt something like Undermine would give someone flashbacks of Azj Kahet.

Aesthetically not, sure, but this isn't what's being argued.

If we go to Undermine it will almost assuredly be about undermining, pun intended, the corrupt Goblin Cartels.
Which means, its the same plot beat as Azj'kahet.

People will absolutely notice going from "lets liberate the Nerubians from their fascist queen" to "Lets liberate the Gobs from their corporate overlords".

Hell, people notice that Azj'kahet is more or less a rehash of Suramar, but that at least played out 8 years ago.
Doing it twice within the same expansion is gonna become repetitive quickly.

Especially with Midnight likely involving another similar plot with Silvermoon.