The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Teriz]

What evidence? Gazlowe is not going to be a big player in the expansion, that's a fact. If he was, he'd be showcased in the expansion reveal alongside Magni, Alleria, Anduin and Thrall. He wasn't. He wasn't even mentioned in the expansion reveal.

The evidence has been discussed multiple times in this thread by multiple posters. There's no need to go over it again.

Blizzard did not implement undermine at launch because undermine it's not a location we'll explore in the first arc of the story.

When I said "launch" I was talking about vanilla WoW.

A source that is non-canon, I'll remind you.

And Blizzard has repeatedly pulled from that non-canon source for WoW content.

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Aesthetically not, sure, but this isn't what's being argued.

If we go to Undermine it will almost assuredly be about undermining, pun intended, the corrupt Goblin Cartels.
Which means, its the same plot beat as Azj'kahet.

People will absolutely notice going from "lets liberate the Nerubians from their fascist queen" to "Lets liberate the Gobs from their corporate overlords".

Hell, people notice that Azj'kahet is more or less a rehash of Suramar, but that at least played out 8 years ago.
Doing it twice within the same expansion is gonna become repetitive quickly.

Especially with Midnight likely involving another similar plot with Silvermoon.

Yeah, I don't believe that's going to be the storyline. I believe the storyline is more about us taking down Gallywix not to save Undermine, but to essentially stop him from doing nefarious things that could lead to a bigger problem. Whether that's damaging the world soul, releasing a void creature, corrupting a titan device, etc.

I don't think Blizzard wants to remove the corrupt cartel flavor from the Goblins. Unlike Xal's influence on the Nerubians, the corrupt cartels are a feature of Goblin civilization, not a bug.

[Nightshade711]

I seriously doubt something like Undermine would give someone flashbacks of Azj Kahet.

I mean I’ve already seen people comparing it to Suramar, despite both of them being extremely aesthetically different.

[Teriz]

I mean I’ve already seen people comparing it to Suramar, despite both of them being extremely aesthetically different.

That's more along the lines of how the zone would be structured, since Suramar is a city. A similar structure could be Borealus or Zuldazar, just with more urban, multinational, and modern in nature with typical Goblin aesthetic;

[Val the Moofia Boss]

That's more along the lines of how the zone would be structured, since Suramar is a city. A similar structure could be Borealus or Zuldazar, just with more urban, multinational, and modern in nature with typical Goblin aesthetic;

What is that rabbit man?

[Ielenia]

The evidence has been discussed multiple times in this thread by multiple posters. There's no need to go over it again.

And every time it's been brought up, it's been debunked. Also, don't give me this "there's no need to go over it again" bullshit when you are the one to continually bringing that shit up. You backpedal like that every time you bring stuff like that up and people remind you it's been debunked.

And Blizzard has repeatedly pulled from that non-canon source for WoW content.

Which is completely irrelevant because it doesn't make the RPG books canon. Until what is in the books is brought into the game or books, it's not canon, and should not be treated as such. "It's in the RPG books" is not a valid argument for canonicity.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I wonder if, one day, we'll all realize that it's our prerogative not to try arguing with Teriz and cause these fruitless page-spanning arguments. If he's set in his position and entirely unwilling to concede the point, maybe it's better to just not pointlessly engage in arguments that we know upon their insemination will never conclude in any satisfactory way.

[Teriz]

And every time it's been brought up, it's been debunked. Also, don't give me this "there's no need to go over it again" bullshit when you are the one to continually bringing that shit up. You backpedal like that every time you bring stuff like that up and people remind you it's been debunked.

The evidence hasn't been debunked because it's speculative. The only way it would be debunked is if we enter 11.1 and it doesn't happen.

Further there's no need to go over it again because you'll simply dismiss it out of hand, like you always do.

Which is completely irrelevant because it doesn't make the RPG books canon.

Where did anyone say the RPG books are canon? The argument is that Blizzard pulls from the RPG books for in-game material on a consistent basis. Thus nothing prevents Blizzard from utilizing "non-canon" RPG book information for game development. They have done so before.

It sort of helps that Blizzard's original intentions with Undermine in vanilla tend to match how the location is described in said "non-canon" sources.

[Zardas]

What is that rabbit man?

A random virmen

[Teriz]

What is that rabbit man?

That's the Hearthstone/CCG version of Virmen from Pandaria.

[Ielenia]

The evidence hasn't been debunked because it's speculative.

No, it's been debunked because you're claiming Blizzard is "pushing Gazlowe as a VIP in TWW" when nothing about the expansion announcement, press releases, interviews, and story of the expansion supports that claim.

Further there's no need to go over it again because you'll simply dismiss it out of hand, like you always do.

I never "dismissed it out of hand". I actually present the evidence and reason for my arguments. Ignoring my arguments and reasoning does not mean they don't exist.

Where did anyone say the RPG books are canon?

Don't move the goalposts. I said you're treating the books as if they're canon: "it is so in the RPG books, so it will be so in the game" is treating the RPG books as canon.

[Teriz]

No, it's been debunked because you're claiming Blizzard is "pushing Gazlowe as a VIP in TWW" when nothing about the expansion announcement, press releases, interviews, and story of the expansion supports that claim.

Don't move the goalposts. I said you're treating the books as if they're canon: "it is so in the RPG books, so it will be so in the game" is treating the RPG books as canon.

Nope, it's merely pointing out that Blizzard constantly pulls in-game material from non-canon sources like the RPG books (they even stated they would), so information from said books should be considered, because they might be added in future content.

[Ielenia]

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81alWJm64+L._AC_UL210_SR210,210_.jpg

Which is just a cover for an anthology of short stories, of which we already know what story Gazlowe is part of. And, like I've pointed out numerous times, it has little to do with the actual plot of the expansion.

Show me some material from Blizzard about the expansion's story itself. A clip from the expansion's reveal where they talk about Gazlowe. An interview where they mention Gazlowe in TWW. You can't, because it doesn't exist. Blizzard is not pushing Gazlowe at all as a "major character".

Nope, it's merely pointing out that Blizzard constantly pulls in-game material from non-canon sources like the RPG books

Which means you're treating it as canon. My point is that the RPG books shouldn't be treated as canon until what is in there is put into the game. In other words: how the RPG books describe undermine is meaningless.

[Teriz]

Which is just a cover for an anthology of short stories, of which we already know what story Gazlowe is part of. And, like I've pointed out numerous times, it has little to do with the actual plot of the expansion.

Show me some material from Blizzard about the expansion's story itself. A clip from the expansion's reveal where they talk about Gazlowe. An interview where they mention Gazlowe in TWW. You can't, because it doesn't exist. Blizzard is not pushing Gazlowe at all as a "major character".

Just curious, is any other character on that cover or in those short stories insignificant to TWW’s story, or is it just Gazlowe?

Which means you're treating it as canon.

Uh no I’m not. I’m treating the RPG books as a potential source for future WoW material. Again, it’s exactly the same thing Blizzard said they would do;

Q: Are the Warcraft and World of Warcraft RPG books considered canon?

A: No. The RPG books were created to provide an engaging table-top role-playing experience, which sometimes required diverging from the established video game canon. Blizzard helped generate a great deal of the content within the RPG books, so there will be times when ideas from the RPG will make their way into the game and official lore, but you are much better off considering the RPG books non-canonical unless otherwise stated.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/War...20game%20canon.


You’re simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Nightshade711]

Yeah, I don't believe that's going to be the storyline. I believe the storyline is more about us taking down Gallywix not to save Undermine, but to essentially stop him from doing nefarious things that could lead to a bigger problem. Whether that's damaging the world soul, releasing a void creature, corrupting a titan device, etc.

I don't think Blizzard wants to remove the corrupt cartel flavor from the Goblins. Unlike Xal's influence on the Nerubians, the corrupt cartels are a feature of Goblin civilization, not a bug.

So... just Azj-Kahet/Suramar but goblin flavored.
Let me guess, Undermine is going to have a mechanic to hide from goblin/mech patrols?

We're likely to not see urban/city-based endgame content until possibly Midnight with Quel'thalas because we're already getting that in TWW with Azj'Kahet.

[Ielenia]

Just curious, is any other character on that cover or in those short stories insignificant to TWW’s story, or is it just Gazlowe?

Well, we see Thrall and Anduin in the TWW's opening cinematic. We see Anduin, Thrall, Magni and Alleria in the expansion's reveal event. We have Anduin, Thrall, Magni and Alleria being mentioned in interviews about the expansion's story.

I'm still waiting for you to show me any time Gazlowe is mentioned in any capacity whenever the expansion's story is being discussed.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/War...20game%20canon.

You’re simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

Well, let's look at your own argument here:

Q: Are the Warcraft and World of Warcraft RPG books considered canon?

A: No. The RPG books were created to provide an engaging table-top role-playing experience, which sometimes required diverging from the established video game canon. Blizzard helped generate a great deal of the content within the RPG books, so there will be times when ideas from the RPG will make their way into the game and official lore, but you are much better off considering the RPG books non-canonical unless otherwise stated.

So, no, you shouldn't use the books as any sort of reflection of the franchise's canon.

[Enrif]

Well, let's look at your own argument here:

So, no, you shouldn't use the books as any sort of reflection of the franchise's canon.

This is a very old quote, isn't it, from 2011? We are farther away from that quote, then the quote was from the RPGs. Considering things seen since then, i would put the RPG books in a Schrödingers box. They are canon and non-canon until the specific part is brought up in the game and confirms/denies the RPG. Tandred is the most famous example of this (with him even having a joke voiceline of him not being canon).
The RPGs can be uses as a stepping stone for theorizing of what might come and what might not.

For a more recent inclusion of RPG lore into the game:

Paracausal Fragment of Seschenal sold by Sorotis is a reference to Seschenal, the weapon of Eonar in the RPG.

[huth]

This is a very old quote, isn't it, from 2011? We are farther away from that quote, then the quote was from the RPGs. Considering things seen since then, i would put the RPG books in a Schrödingers box. They are canon and non-canon until the specific part is brought up in the game and confirms/denies the RPG. Tandred is the most famous example of this (with him even having a joke voiceline of him not being canon).
The RPGs can be uses as a stepping stone for theorizing of what might come and what might not.

For a more recent inclusion of RPG lore into the game:

Paracausal Fragment of Seschenal sold by Sorotis is a reference to Seschenal, the weapon of Eonar in the RPG.

Those are simply examples of exactly what is stated there. Treat these things as non-canon unless otherwise stated.

[Raetary]

This is a very old quote, isn't it, from 2011? We are farther away from that quote, then the quote was from the RPGs. Considering things seen since then, i would put the RPG books in a Schrödingers box. They are canon and non-canon until the specific part is brought up in the game and confirms/denies the RPG.

You literally just repeated what the blue post says...

Blizzard helped generate a great deal of the content within the RPG books, so there will be times when ideas from the RPG will make their way into the game and official lore, but you are much better off considering the RPG books non-canonical unless otherwise stated.

[Makorus]

Just curious, is any other character on that cover or in those short stories insignificant to TWW’s story, or is it just Gazlowe?



Uh no I’m not. I’m treating the RPG books as a potential source for future WoW material. Again, it’s exactly the same thing Blizzard said they would do;




https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/War...20game%20canon.


You’re simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

Thrall is irrelevant.

He is on the cover because one of the short stories is about Gazlowe, and because there is a goblin presence. He is not a major character in any way. He is as important as Khadgar was in Dragonflight, maybe even less so because Blizzard literally did not talk about Gazlowe in any way whatsoever. If you didn't follow the nitty-gritty Beta storyline, you wouldn't even know he was in the expansion. Hell, even if you do, I wouldn't blame you for missing it because he is irrelevant in the actual expansion as well.

Wouldn't be the first time they had promotional material about characters that weren't really relevant and just did it to flesh things out.

[Enrif]

Those are simply examples of exactly what is stated there. Treat these things as non-canon unless otherwise stated.

You literally just repeated what the blue post says...

Not quite. The quote states: non-canonical unless otherwise stated.
What i say, it is neither canon nor non-canon, and can be treated as canon for the sake of theories and speculation.