The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Golden Yak]

Absolute best case scenario for Undermine in that regard is something like Revendreth I would reckon. Where a giant chunk is city, and a bigger chunk are the mines and abandoned cesspits outside.
Personally, this is why I think Undermine proper will be a raid. It lets the developers go all-in on the theming without having to dedicate an entire zone to it. Maybe something similar to Nazjatar and the Eternal Palace where you go by train from a zone closer to Dorn and all the way to Undermine for the raid entrance.

Agreed. Quickly refreshing myself on Kezan/Undermine lore, the capital city is described as being subterranean. Going by the snippets we see of the surface in the goblin starting zone and Motherlode, there are large areas of construction and industry, but the rest of the island is still covered in jungle.

An entirely redone/revamped Kezan would likely consist of those elements - significant portion of goblin ruins leftover from the Cataclysm, some areas being rebuilt by returning goblins, large areas of wilderness, jungle (likely reclaiming some goblin ruins) and of course the volcano. Instances would take place below the surface in Undermine proper, with goblin construction as expansive as Blizz feels like doing.

I'm hoping for something that feels like Blackrock Depths, if not actually quite as twisty to navigate.

[Raetary]

Based on the fact that Undermine is not going to be bigger than the capital city of the elves. Based on the fact that I have never seen any sort of evidence that undermine is "huge" in any way other than fan interpretations of what little we know of the place.

To add to this, Undermine would be a patch zone, which means its not gonna get the same full fledged investment as an expansion zone would get.

It's inevitably going to be smaller, as patch zones tend to be.

[Teriz]

And that's a huge "if" that is going of complete speculation without any concrete evidence. And no, "these goblins come from undermine" and having undermine mentioned here and there are not definitive evidence that Blizzard is working on an undermine-centric patch.

We also have evidence of an upcoming goblin-based raid, Gazlowe being pushed as a significant character in the expansion, and Undermine fitting the overall thematic of TWW. Yes it’s not concrete evidence, but it is evidence. I wouldn’t even say it’s a huge if because such an excursion fits what occurred in patch 10.1 with Zalarek; a side story dealing with a specific faction, in that case the Dracthyr and the black Dragonflight.

Because I doubt that undermine is big enough, lore-wise, for that. Because even giant, sprawling cities such as Suramar, Dazar'alor and Boralus do not occupy the entirety of a zone.

Considering that undermine is the central location of the Goblin’s mercantile empire supposedly ruled by multiple trade princes, it would be far more than enough lorewise to handle a zone. It should actually be larger than those locations you mentioned.

Based on the fact that Undermine is not going to be bigger than the capital city of the elves. Based on the fact that I have never seen any sort of evidence that undermine is "huge" in any way other than fan interpretations of what little we know of the place.

Read its lore. Plenty of descriptions are available.


https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Undermine
https://www.engadget.com/2011-08-07-...-pandaria.html
https://ia801302.us.archive.org/29/i...OF_MYSTERY.pdf

Btw, for that last link, Kezan/Undermine is discussed on page 74, and has over double the population than Orgrimmar (31k vs 14k, with Undermine alone having 20k). That indicates that Undermine is also potentially larger population-wise than Stormwind. So yeah, it’s a big place.

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To add to this, Undermine would be a patch zone, which means its not gonna get the same full fledged investment as an expansion zone would get.

It's inevitably going to be smaller, as patch zones tend to be.

The Emerald Dream and Zalarek patch zones both got rather significant development and investment. Especially the ED zone.

[Darkarath]

To add to this, Undermine would be a patch zone, which means its not gonna get the same full fledged investment as an expansion zone would get.

It's inevitably going to be smaller, as patch zones tend to be.

Are they really that smaller? I feel that the last ones that we got were pretty big, especially Zereth Mortis, but also Zaralek Caverns and The Emerald Dream. Probably not as big as an expansion zone but really huge anyways.

I see people speculating about the size of Undermine city, do we need it to be bigger than Suramar? Really? What for?

I hope that we get Undermine being fight for by three different factions. "Good" goblins, Void Ethereals allied with Gallywix, and the Brokers doing their own thing. The final showdown of the greedy races.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Zaralek Cavern is the same size as the Waking Shores. The main difference is that the Waking Shore has more surface area due to the verticality of the cliffs so it feels bigger as there is more packed into the same amount of space, whereas most of Zaralek is a flat plain. Emerald Dream is about the same size too but feels bigger than Zaralek due to the density of the forest so you have more trees flying past you, at least when you are flying through and not spamming spacebar to simply soar high over the treetops.

[Teriz]

I see people speculating about the size of Undermine city, do we need it to be bigger than Suramar? Really? What for?

I believe that if Blizzard is going to do it, they should make it a neutral hub that players can visit and RP in long after the expansion is over.

That’s the most logical way to represent the location.

To your point though, yeah the argument that patch zones aren’t large or densely packed with stuff is a strange stance to take after Zalarek and Amir’drassil.

[Nibelheimy]

Going by Blizzard themselves track record on underground city's of smaller mechanical based races. You'll get the isle of kezan as a patch zone and undermine as a mega-dungeon.

Despite how I think Undermine deserves more. So did mechagon (despite being an excellent dungeon) as a city, island, and mechagnomes as a race. It was disappointing. Typical case of taking things players want, and mixing it up to be nothing they expected or wanted.

Expect this, and be pleasantly surprised if we get anything more.

[Teriz]

Going by Blizzard themselves track record on underground city's of smaller mechanical based races. You'll get the isle of kezan as a patch zone and undermine as a mega-dungeon.

Despite how I think Undermine deserves more. So did mechagon (despite being an excellent dungeon) as a city, island, and mechagnomes as a race. It was disappointing. Typical case of taking things players want, and mixing it up to be nothing they expected or wanted.

Expect this, and be pleasantly surprised if we get anything more.

Thing is, the datamined material says goblin raid, so if this happens, it’s not going to be a mega dungeon.

In addition, raids post DF have matched the theme of the zones they come with. So if we’re getting a goblin raid, we’re likely also getting a goblin zone. That’s where the Undermine talk enters the picture.

Further, like Azj Khenet, and Khaz Algar, Undermine was also hinted at during Dragonflight.

[Makabreska]

With Blizzard wanting to push out expansions faster than once every 2 years, we will be lucky if we even get a third raid.

DF had 3 raids, and we will have 21 months in between expansions, sooo...

[Nymrohd]

DF had 3 raids, and we will have 21 months in between expansions, sooo...

Yeah the 18 month idea some people are pushing doesn't seem likely to me. I think we might see 20 months but that's it.

[Santandame]

Where’s the concern for enemy variety in Midnight coming from?

Just off the top of my head it’s likely we’ll get the following combination of Void, Scourge, Forest Trolls, Naga and the Scarlets as the main antagonistic forces.

You could also throw in Wretched Elves, Gnolls as they’re present in Northern EK as well as DF’s intent to build them into a credible threat, and we could also get demons involved as a throwback to TBC as well as some possible Dreadlord appearances with the Scarlets.

Midnight has tons of potential for antagonist diversity.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Where’s the concern for enemy variety in Midnight coming from?

Just off the top of my head it’s likely we’ll get the following combination of Void, Scourge, Forest Trolls, Naga and the Scarlets as the main antagonistic forces.

You could also throw in Wretched Elves, Gnolls as they’re present in Northern EK as well as DF’s intent to build them into a credible threat, and we could also get demons involved as a throwback to TBC as well as some possible Dreadlord appearances with the Scarlets.

Midnight has tons of potential for antagonist diversity.

Being that it will be a Void expansion, on top of the Void being able to corrupt anything it wants, it does not really matter what kind of variety we get. Anything will get a nice coat of purple paint over it and be labeled "void-touched" or something to that effect.


Would be a cool twist if that some of the heroes/good guy characters fighting a long side of us become "void-touched" somehow between the end of TWW and beginning of Midnight, and become the expansion long enemies.

[Makabreska]

Would be a cool twist if that some of the heroes/good guy characters fighting a long side of us become "void-touched" somehow between the end of TWW and beginning of Midnight, and become the expansion long enemies.

Not sure about that. Not a fan of characters doing a sudden 180° due to Void/Fel/undeath/Sha corruption. It also creates so many cringe moments of "noooooo, fight it!!!!111". And the cure is usually beating the shit out of them.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Not sure about that. Not a fan of characters doing a sudden 180° due to Void/Fel/undeath/Sha corruption. It also creates so many cringe moments of "noooooo, fight it!!!!111". And the cure is usually beating the shit out of them.

What if the Void corrupted character is somebody you want to beat the shit out of?

[Nightshade711]

One of the most damning things against Undermine in TWW as a city is the fact that we’ve already got a large underground city-zone that we’re doing content in that houses a raid coming at launch.

I doubt blizzard would do the exact same thing again in the same expansion.

[Ielenia]

Gazlowe being pushed as a significant character in the expansion,

He's not. If he was, why wasn't he mentioned along the actual significant characters of the expansion, such as Magni, Thrall, Alleria and Anduin?

Read its lore. Plenty of descriptions are available.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Undermine
https://www.engadget.com/2011-08-07-...-pandaria.html
https://ia801302.us.archive.org/29/i...OF_MYSTERY.pdf

Link #1: no real indication of undermine's actual size in the lore.
Link #2: an opinion piece, fan interpretation.
Link #3: the RPG books are not sources of lore. Also, since it's topical: according to that same book, Azjol-Nerub has a population 20.000 (same as undermine) and yet it was the smallest dungeon in the Wrath of the Lich King expansion.

[Dracullus]

Yeah the 18 month idea some people are pushing doesn't seem likely to me. I think we might see 20 months but that's it.

It's possible if they scrap S4, make three 5-5.5 month seasons and just put Remix on last 1-2 months. But honestly, I don't want this - long droughts are deadly, but shorter breaks healthy, DF cycle is very close to perfection in my eyes.

[Cheezits]

One of the most damning things against Undermine in TWW as a city is the fact that we’ve already got a large underground city-zone that we’re doing content in that houses a raid coming at launch.

I doubt blizzard would do the exact same thing again in the same expansion.

While it's true the theme is a little repetitive, I will not that AK is not only much smaller than Suramar but it is not shaped like a conventional, traditional city.

But I think they will focus on Industrial/Factory themes for Undermine over Mean Streets of Gadgetzan.

[Teriz]

He's not. If he was, why wasn't he mentioned along the actual significant characters of the expansion, such as Magni, Thrall, Alleria and Anduin?

Because he’s primarily 11.1 content, not really relevant (though present) in 11.0.

Link #1: no real indication of undermine's actual size in the lore.

The developer’s notes on what Blizzard intended for Undermine in vanilla should indicate it.

Link #2: an opinion piece, fan interpretation.
Link #3: the RPG books are not sources of lore. Also, since it's topical: according to that same book, Azjol-Nerub has a population 20.000 (same as undermine) and yet it was the smallest dungeon in the Wrath of the Lich King expansion.

Are you being purposely obtuse? You know large parts of Azjol-Nerub got cut because they couldn’t get it done in time for release (because it was going to be a ton of work).

The idea that Blizzard wouldn’t refer to vanilla development notes and RPG lore is nonsense.

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One of the most damning things against Undermine in TWW as a city is the fact that we’ve already got a large underground city-zone that we’re doing content in that houses a raid coming at launch.

I doubt blizzard would do the exact same thing again in the same expansion.

Ancient Spider-city filled with monsterbugs =\= Industrialized, multinational Goblin city with trains, Zepplins, trade organizations, etc.

Not the same thing.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Where’s the concern for enemy variety in Midnight coming from?

That we are going to get purple space magic fatigue like we did with three years of orcs in red underground fortresses from SoO through WoD, or demon fatigue with three years of green lava demons in black fortresses from Hellfire through Legion.