The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Khaza-R]

Would it really? What evidence do you have for that? Cataclysm did not do exceptionally well.

I think that's difficult to determine. Because how many less players would have Blizzard gained over the years had they never revamped the world and modernized the questing experience?

Cataclysm like any potential revamp is a gambit that impacts expansions beyond its own scope.

[huth]

I think that's difficult to determine. Because how many less players would have Blizzard gained over the years had they never revamped the world and modernized the questing experience?

Cataclysm like any potential revamp is a gambit that impacts expansions beyond its own scope.

Cataclysm was, yes. A new revamp would not be due to the leveling changes.

Though whether Cataclysm ultimately worked out is another question we don't have the data to answer.

At least short- to medium term it didn't. Since a new revamp would necessarily fare even worse (as long-term benefits are now non-existant), i'm really not seeing the appeal from a design and resource allocation perspective.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I'll be shocked if it is not the Light Crusade.

Part of me hopes that Yrel isn't just another baddie we curbstomp in a raid, but a more permanent fixture. I'd like to see her join the Alliance; I'd want to contrapose her with the more level-headed Turalyon to create some subfactions in a new, more strongly religious Alliance. I think it would be an interesting dynamic that put more fuel on the fire of a renascent faction conflict, which is something I personally desire quite strongly.

If she does become a pure baddie and we have to Villain Bat the Light while riding Danny's Wild Ride, my personal suggestion for the name would be "Onslaught of the Sanctified".

Light vs. Void has been hinted at for some time, would not be surprised to see that as a theme. Avaloren has been mentioned more and more lately and would play well off of damage that the Incarnates might be able to cause. As we don't know much about Avaloren, it's very possibly already infested with one of the cosmic elements, so those two themes may not be that different.

Avaloren feels more likely. Although I like the Light-Void conflict far more than any of the other high-concept elements we've been exploring lately, and I find both forces interesting, I do feel like it would likely only happen on a relatively subdued scale for the time being. If it does happen, I figure it will manifest as a return to Azeroth with an undercurrent of that conflict manifesting through more grounded forces (e.g. an invasion by the Lightbound coming into conflict with agents of the Old Gods).

World revamp is still a possibility too, especially with the 20th Anniversary of WoW coming up. It would be a good chance for the current WoW team to make the world their own while at the same time making more zones have standalone stories that aren't as trapped in time as the Cata stories are.

The long awaited theme of 'revamping'.

I'd go with World Revamp. As of now, I don't see a proper build-up created for Void vs. Light to be honest. Altough there are a few hints/storyline bits here and there about void and light, I don't think the story has been developed to the point, it could serve as a fully-fledged expansion theme. If the expansion like that was announced today, I'd be absolutely surprised, but there's still lots of potential to push these themes further in Dragonflight.

I confess I am reluctant to claim I expect a world revamp; it feels as though it is somewhat unlikely due to the scale of the resources required and the general difficulty involved. The addition of Dragonriding across the Old World also feels odd, but it could just mean that the revamped world will coexist with the original Azeroth. However, I am also quite hopeful for it; I don't know if I think it will really happen, I feel like I can still shill for it as an interesting idea. I'm definitely holding out hope and have a great interest in it.

On the other hand, the whole idea of "reawakening" of Azeroth, reganing power by Aspects, stories being much more subtle, mainly outside of grand cosmic scope, sells the idea of revamp to me. Also, it's worth noting that changes to talents system / flying / production pipeline fit pretty nice to the World Revamp theme.

Quite true. This, along with the oncoming milestones, gives me some confidence. You're giving me a sense of anticipation talking about it, no matter how much I'm uncertain about it.

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While many people seem to expect Light, i suppose they did also fairly clearly say the Naga are likely to make a return soonish.

If we're talking about the context Avaloren, I could definitely see the Naga featuring there. It would be in-character for Azshara to go seeking something there. I definitely feel as though the foreshadowing is strong, and it feels like it is probably pertinent to the next expansion.

No large-scale revamps. Those are a waste of resources.

Why? How do the benefits fail to justify the added resource expenditure?

[Khaza-R]

Cataclysm was, yes. A new revamp would not be due to the leveling changes.

Though whether Cataclysm ultimately worked out is another question we don't have the data to answer.

At least short- to medium term it didn't. Since a new revamp would necessarily fare even worse (as long-term benefits are now non-existant), i'm really not seeing the appeal from a design and resource allocation perspective.

I would agree, only Blizzard could answer that question.

I think the issue with Cataclysm was that the revamp took away from the endgame. Some of it was just entirely unnecessary in retrospect. There was an obvious dissonance between the concept of the world literally being reshaped and just updating the story in some zones.

But we have to remember that Cataclysm trailed Vanilla by only 6 years. A potential revamp would trail Cataclysm by 14 years. There's a lot more technology to play around with this time to allocate resources in the right areas.

[huth]

But we have to remember that Cataclysm trailed Vanilla by only 6 years. A potential revamp would trail Cataclysm by 14 years. There's a lot more technology to play around with this time to allocate resources in the right areas.

It's been about twice as long since Cata than it has been between the original and the revamp. If they were even considering it, they'd have long done it.

You can't solve problems just by throwing more tech at it, either. Especially when the nature of the problem is not one that can be solved by technology.

[Khaza-R]

You can't solve problems just by throwing more tech at it, either. Especially when the nature of the problem is not one that can be solved by technology.

Disagree with you here. Its obviously design at the forefront, but the tech matters. Nowadays you can simultaneously progress on an alt with both endgame and leveling. Something like that could be used in the future with potential revamp.

[Mecheon]

Would it really? What evidence do you have for that? Cataclysm did not do exceptionally well.

While I am against just a pure revamp (Half the reason Cata was popular was giving us new zones like Hyjal which were the draw to most people, that and flying), some of Cata's failures may also be for its infamous 'hey what if we just made, everything harder on our casual fanbase used to easy dungeons'

A pure revamp, of "There is no New Place to explore we just revamped all of the old", will fail simply because people are simple and we want new things. Cata, for its faults, did at least offer those big New Things. But folks can talk as much on in-world progress and technology but, none of it is going to beat the simple monke-brain fact of "New thing exciting". World revamp isn't "New thing", its "Coat of paint over old thing", and an expansion really can't be sold as just paint because you need something to put as your new feature to drag people in

[Kiivar86]

In regards to themes for next expansion, if we do go to Avaloren (still hoping its a full expansion and not just patch content. Tired of my hopes constantly being turned into just patch content (Argus, Nazjatar, Ny'alotha)), personally hoping for another take on fae themes to at least some degree. Ardenweald was nice but I'd love more.

(Admittedly biased as my mobile game of choice is going through its own Avalon right now so...)

I had seen some people talk of Sumerian stuff which would also be neat but I dunno if they'd be Sumerian in style since it seems that the keeper Innaria is against them in some capacity, not that they came from the same area, though that wouldn't be a stretch either.

Sumerian, Fae, Arthurian...I'd be happy with any of the three, truly. And I wouldn't mind this possible Light Crusade either (I want more enemies whose styles aren't just iron or spikes or elements).

While I am against just a pure revamp (Half the reason Cata was popular was giving us new zones like Hyjal which were the draw to most people, that and flying), some of Cata's failures may also be for its infamous 'hey what if we just made, everything harder on our casual fanbase used to easy dungeons'

A pure revamp, of "There is no New Place to explore we just revamped all of the old", will fail simply because people are simple and we want new things. Cata, for its faults, did at least offer those big New Things. But folks can talk as much on in-world progress and technology but, none of it is going to beat the simple monke-brain fact of "New thing exciting". World revamp isn't "New thing", its "Coat of paint over old thing", and an expansion really can't be sold as just paint because you need something to put as your new feature to drag people in

Yeah, I'll admit that I'm one such that would like at least some new things. Updates are nice but I've got that monkey brain you mention.

[huth]

While I am against just a pure revamp (Half the reason Cata was popular was giving us new zones like Hyjal which were the draw to most people, that and flying), some of Cata's failures may also be for its infamous 'hey what if we just made, everything harder on our casual fanbase used to easy dungeons'

And most of them were due to spending so many resources on the revamp that they were starved for the actual expansion content.

Which feeds into your second point, as any resources spent on the revamp could instead have been spent on making new stuff. And Blizzard outright told us the revamp was relatively more costly than making something new.

In regards to themes for next expansion, if we do go to Avaloren (still hoping its a full expansion and not just patch content. Tired of my hopes constantly being turned into just patch content (Argus, Nazjatar, Ny'alotha)), personally hoping for another take on fae themes to at least some degree. Ardenweald was nice but I'd love more.

Well, if they keep with the duality of Elune and the Winter Queen, it stands to reason Elune's realm would also be a take on fae, though a more summery kind. Though when or if we go there is a different matter.

[Berkilak]

I think you’re inadvertently redefining the term to suit what you identify with personally in the genre.

[Kiivar86]

Well, if they keep with the duality of Elune and the Winter Queen, it stands to reason Elune's realm would also be a take on fae, though a more summery kind. Though when or if we go there is a different matter.

Ah good point! Though I wouldn't mind another take on the winter fae sort, Ardenweald, while nice enough for fae aesthetic, really wasn't all that fall/wintery for me.

(Also still salty we didn't get actual wings for flying, each covenant had a perfect set to use)

[Nymrohd]

Tbh a revamp could just be contained in the old world and still have a lot of new areas.
First off, we now can have underground areas. Hyjal Barrows could be an underground subzone joining most of Northern Kalimdor with exits in Hyjal, Winterspring, Felwood, Azshara. Maybe it even joins the Oracle Caves in Stonetalon. Blackrock Mountains could have an underground subzone that extends beneath the entire area with Shadowforge City as part of it, joining with the many cavern parts of Searing Gorge.

Aboveground, Stratholme Bay and an open world version of Stratholme, the Amani Heartlands in the Hills of Maisara with an uninstanced Zul'aman are very much missing from the Lordaeron sub-continent. And many existing zones could gain small expansions as places that were just roughly covered by the Cataclysm revamp could be improved upon; e.g. the North and East sides of Hyjal are just unnatural cliffsides that could get at least one subzone per area to smoothen the altitude drop.

Another common idea is that a revamp could move instanced zones into the map proper. Tol Barad is a short flight from Gilneas. Several of the Island Expedition areas could be added in the map. A simple example would be adding Havenswood and Crestfall (and perhaps Zul'dare) to create the Channel Islands.

A final idea would be to use the transition tech to just join the planet together. Think of this map. This could be combined with adding some Island Expedition maps to just even out fatigue zones. E.g. if you add Channel Islands you could fly south east of Crestfall and transition to the Kul Tiras map. Jorundal could be added and let you transition to Stromheim. The Dread Chain and Skittering Hollow could become points joining Kalimdor to Northrend while Dragon Isles could be a place you fly to from Lordaeron and then use to fly to Northrend. Imagine if you can just dragonride across the entire planet!

With this in mind, a revamp would definitely have a lot of entirely new areas to explore just by mostly reusing existing landmasses.

___________

I still think we are getting Avaloren though.

[Paperfox]

I recently watched a video by Taliesen & Evitel wherein he guesses that the next expansion will have something to do with buccaneers, with a new continent to the West of Kalimdor.

The 10th expansion, and a fairly significant anniversary so should be good!

[Hitei]

Would Elunes Realm be the Dream? Cause I imagine we haven't seen the Dream in true yet

We've been in it several times. Elune is an entity that is present across the whole cosmos, the Dream is something specific to Azeroth and occupied seemingly only by people and entities from Azeroth and is itself just a reflection of the single world.

Elune's ties to the Dream aren't all that strong. She just feels related because she's so involved in groups that have strong ties to it (Night Elves, Green Dragons, her children). It's worth noting that Cenarius (and so also the sons of Cenarius and dryads) don't get their connection to the Dream from Elune, they get it from Malorne.

There's also a bunch of factors that suggest Elune just isn't really involved in the Dream at all. First (though minor) it's almost perpetually daytime in the Dream, she's a lunar goddess who is always associated with the night and darkness. Second she has never bothered to defend the Dream, she did not help when the Nightmare was threatening to overtake it, it being her realm would also mean she just sat there at let Freya come into her, and didn't bother to get involved with the Old Gods, despite them directly threatening the existence of Azeroth, which the Dream is tied to.

Her realm is likely some extraplanar "Life" realm that fosters the sparks of life into existence, to then be sent to the mortal plane, to then pass on to the Shadowlands. Or something. I honestly really doubt we're ever going to get a "Lifelands". It might be a patch zone at some point. Or maybe they'll do a full cosmic war expansion and the five main zones will be individual cosmic realms with that being one.

I wouldn't expect something on the cosmic level of Shadowlands anytime soon, people got too pissy about it.

I recently watched a video by Taliesen & Evitel wherein he guesses that the next expansion will have something to do with buccaneers, with a new continent to the West of Kalimdor.

The 10th expansion, and a fairly significant anniversary so should be good!

Yes, this is has been a long-standing theory as a likely expansion location for like a decade, when people noted that established locations were starting to run out and the Maelstrom side was growing increasingly crowded.

[Nymrohd]

I recently watched a video by Taliesen & Evitel wherein he guesses that the next expansion will have something to do with buccaneers, with a new continent to the West of Kalimdor.

The 10th expansion, and a fairly significant anniversary so should be good!

Yes, Nightsquall points to pirates being one of the themes. Or he just reads the thread.

Imo Avaloren
11.0 Pirates
11.1 Odyn
11.2 Local Old God
11.3 Something with local Titan Tech/Azshara

I expect there will a Forge in Avaloren
Ulduar was protected by a Norse themed group of Keepers. It had the Forge of Wills whose primary function is to shape the nascent World Soul sentience (likely aligning it with Order in the process) while it also served to pump up Titanforged to do the Pantheon's will
Uldum was protected by an Egyptian themed group of Keepers. It had the Forge of Origination whose primary function is to shape the World Soul's physical form and secondary function was to reset the entire planet if the Pantheon's plans went awry.
So my bet is that Avaloren holds a third facility protected by a Mesopotamian or maybe Japanese themed group of Keepers (due to Innana). And it would also host a Forge. My speculation is that this is the Forge of Awakening whose primary function is to midwife the World Soul when the time comes for it to be born and its secondary function is to Abort it if the World Soul is somehow irreversibly compromised.

[Melorandor]

Yes, Nightsquall points to pirates being one of the themes. Or he just reads the thread.

Imo Avaloren
11.0 Pirates
11.1 Odyn
11.2 Local Old God
11.3 Something with local Titan Tech/Azshara

I expect there will a Forge in Avaloren
Ulduar was protected by a Norse themed group of Keepers. It had the Forge of Wills whose primary function is to shape the nascent World Soul sentience (likely aligning it with Order in the process) while it also served to pump up Titanforged to do the Pantheon's will
Uldum was protected by an Egyptian themed group of Keepers. It had the Forge of Origination whose primary function is to shape the World Soul's physical form and secondary function was to reset the entire planet if the Pantheon's plans went awry.
So my bet is that Avaloren holds a third facility protected by a Mesopotamian or maybe Japanese themed group of Keepers (due to Innana). And it would also host a Forge. My speculation is that this is the Forge of Awakening whose primary function is to midwife the World Soul when the time comes for it to be born and its secondary function is to Abort it if the World Soul is somehow irreversibly compromised.

Unironically, would be good.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Avaloren

I'm definitely looking forward to it, at least to an extent. I think it has some good material: a Scarlet Crusade colony that may have become an Order-State, good, old-fashioned pirates, and Azshara as a sensible overarching threat. If this is the direction they go with it, I could see it being enjoyable.

[Al Gorefiend]

Yes, Nightsquall points to pirates being one of the themes. Or he just reads the thread.

Imo Avaloren
11.0 Pirates
11.1 Odyn
11.2 Local Old God
11.3 Something with local Titan Tech/Azshara

I expect there will a Forge in Avaloren
Ulduar was protected by a Norse themed group of Keepers. It had the Forge of Wills whose primary function is to shape the nascent World Soul sentience (likely aligning it with Order in the process) while it also served to pump up Titanforged to do the Pantheon's will
Uldum was protected by an Egyptian themed group of Keepers. It had the Forge of Origination whose primary function is to shape the World Soul's physical form and secondary function was to reset the entire planet if the Pantheon's plans went awry.
So my bet is that Avaloren holds a third facility protected by a Mesopotamian or maybe Japanese themed group of Keepers (due to Innana). And it would also host a Forge. My speculation is that this is the Forge of Awakening whose primary function is to midwife the World Soul when the time comes for it to be born and its secondary function is to Abort it if the World Soul is somehow irreversibly compromised.

Would be a good expansion.

At this age in WoW's life people need to be willing to suspend their disbelief that new continents need to appear and the lore for why they haven't been explored or talked about before needs to be handwaived or magicdidit™ like with Pandaria

[micwini]

Having a continent appear out of the mists for a 3rd time would be plain stupid IMO. "Lol again?, sure hahah".
I can't really see Avaloren be more than a patch zone later on in the expansion, but we'd have to see.

[Nebron]

Would be a good expansion.

At this age in WoW's life people need to be willing to suspend their disbelief that new continents need to appear and the lore for why they haven't been explored or talked about before needs to be handwaived or magicdidit™ like with Pandaria

Yeah, the only problem is, that Pandaria was to a degree "established" thing, and whenever people heard of Pandaria, it wasn't something that left them unable to connect the dots. Same with Dragon Isles - this concept has been used, altough it could have been continent "XYZ", on purpose - Blizzard simply reached for whatever people have been waiting for. Broken Isles / Zandalar / Kul'tiras even Shadowlands. All these places have been previously establish, so creating a proper, playable zone from these could ve met with player's anticipation.

When it comes to me personally, I can't say anything like that about Avaloren. I have no idea what this place is, apart from the pirate guy and some zealots. It's just a name dropped to create some fuss about it, and let people hype themselves up. WHICH IS A GOOD THING! don't get me wrong. It's just a bit too early. There's literally 0 exposition to that place, and I far from being excited to explore a place that has been made up a year ago. Especially with that fan-fic arthurian name - Avaloren

The only thing I need is a bit more exposition on what is that place, what's it's purpose, what can we expect from this place, so that I can get hyped to have it explored. Otherwise - throw anything at me and it will have the same impact really.

Also, people connect it with Titans and stuff. And that's where my second issue is actually. I can't stand the idea that two expansions in a row share a common theme. Once again, personally, I haven't been a huge fan of that whole Pantheon/ Titans thing, altough it's been there from the beginning of WoW. But still, it got some mystery feeling to it. Now, everything is just so much in your face, it's getting boring. Even the architecture is a bit anti-climatic for me.